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  1. #1

    T15 4pc Too Stronk?! NONSENSE

    So… This is my first post on these forums (Meaning I can not provide the url links directly... So you'll have to exert the extra few precious calories by highlighting and pasting to your search bar). Second, this is a response to the multiple tweets that GC has gotten ( twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/371077291251470336 ) from other classes (or maybe even a silly rogue) who is saying that the T15 4pc needs to be nerfed. With that out of the way, I felt maybe I’d show a funny thing I was able to make our favorite site (Shadowcraft) do.

    I will be listing a few of these. The first ones will largely be for FUN and should NOT be taken as serious or even somewhat conceivable. While you’re looking at these posts, please make sure to pay extra attention to our ability damage percentages on the Advanced tab and our stat weights on the first tab. The only reason I say this isn't possible at all is no crazy people go blowing up GC's twitter with spam about rogues needing nerfs.

    tinyurl.com/k9bekdh <- This is showing us at ~ 256m dps. That would kill most ToT bosses in a handful of seconds. (Just to try to put this into perspective) Tunneling on Horridon with the highest current boss health would be dead in less than 7.7 seconds from just one rogue. OBVIOUSLY, this is NOT possible in ANYWHERE besides a simulation. This is probably the exactly the reason Blizzard dislikes using Sims as justification for nerfs or buffs.

    (I have tried going even higher, but not only is there little point as clearly at this point it’s just completely unreasonable and unrealistic, but Shadowcraft seems to break down… I’ve tried doing things that should -in theory- increase that magical number, but Shadowcraft goes nuts and begins saying that our dps will be negative Here is an example of the most I was able to get Shadowcraft to go negative; tinyurl.com/kjuv6n7 Yes, that shows ~ - 1b dps.) This is another reason why this should NOT be taken seriously at all… It’s seriously just fun with a program’s math.

    tinyurl.com/lp38elc <- This is a slightly more realistic version… (It doesn’t require the mathematically “mean” method I used to get the 256m and is much more tame at 1.87m dps. )

    tinyurl.com/lrvhb5o <- This is with Thok’s tail, if the proc continues to work for rogues.

    Now, is the interaction between T15’s bonuses and our trinket a little too strong? Maybe. I’d certainly say that if 256m (or even 1.87m) sustained dps due to those were possible, then it is. I just hope that if they decide to nerf the interaction, they only nerf the T15 4set rather than nerfing anything on combat rogues because I’d really like a fair opportunity to swap to combat next tier. Looks like fun with the AoC.

  2. #2
    We already had a fix for KS coming down the pipeline. ETA this morning or next.

  3. #3
    Ugh, that kind of sucks... Oh well. It was a bit of fun to mess around with Shadowcraft this morning. Will combat even be close to assassination with that change?

  4. #4
    I would think so. It should only change DPS for tamer gear sets by a couple % at most. But we'll see. That's why we have beta periods.

    I will say that, I didn't expect us to run into these conditions, so the original formulas weren't designed to predict and account for this type of scaling.

    By all means though, continue to mess with the engine like this. It's the best way to see if I screwed something up.

  5. #5
    Now, is the interaction between T15’s bonuses and our trinket a little too strong? Maybe. I’d certainly say that if 256m (or even 1.87m) sustained dps due to those were possible, then it is. I just hope that if they decide to nerf the interaction, they only nerf the T15 4set rather than nerfing anything on combat rogues because I’d really like a fair opportunity to swap to combat next tier. Looks like fun with the AoC.
    That's the whole point of why I actually tweeted him what I did. Combat is going to be viable with or without t15 pc imo, but I would rather not have it be balanced around last tier's gear. Now, if they do break it, I do think it might be reasonable for him to give Combat a little something. i.e. lower SS energy cost back down, but keep the increased damage, which is actually something I tweeted to the crab.

  6. #6
    I appear to have missed something here, how did you manage to get a 250 million dps setup on shadowcraft. LOL

  7. #7
    Since it seems you quite quickly strolled into here Pathal, and might be easier for you to get a hold of the ShC guys if you're not directly involved anymore (EJ is kinda dead these days):
    If you run full t15HC+CD reducing trinket+multistrike one, the t14-4p suddenly EP-spikes to 900k value for some reason lol.
    Seems it for some reason counts the t15-4p as baseline or something, but swapping any piece to break 4-set for Combat fixes the issue.

  8. #8
    25 mln DPS, this is sooo fake.

    The best thing is haste is better than agility for about ~140 times.

    Also there's a misspell in the title.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    25 mln DPS, this is sooo fake.

    The best thing is haste is better than agility for about ~140 times.

    Also there's a misspell in the title.
    If you didn't get it (as it seems) he wanted to show how the engine can easily be manipulated and therefore not to trust the DPS numbers it's giving too much but rather use it for upgrades. It was in response to a tweet saying enhance was simming 60k lower. The misspelt word isn't an error but rather irony.
    Fluorescent - Fluo - currently retired, playing other stuff

    i5-4670k @ 4.5 / Thermalright Silver Arrow Extreme / Gigabyte Z87X-D3H / 8GB DDR3-1600 RAM / Gigabyte GTX 760

  10. #10
    I believe it was because of an asymptote. If you remember the reciprocal function (something we actually use a lot of), it increases to infinity as you come from the right, and decreases to neg inf as you come from the left. That's why there was a massive return on haste that promptly inverted things as soon as you blow past it.

    There was so many finishers per second and so much haste that went too far. That shouldn't be possible anymore since it should scale to the phase lengths a lot better now.

    It should still be strong, and probably worthy of nerfing.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    If you didn't get it (as it seems) he wanted to show how the engine can easily be manipulated and therefore not to trust the DPS numbers it's giving too much but rather use it for upgrades. \
    Pretty much this. I think Shadowcraft is an amazing tool for us rogues. I was just playing around and noticed that it was reaching some sort of Asymptotic limit. I thought it was hilarious and actually hoped that this might be able to help the developers (assuming they even read these forums; I'm pretty new to mmo forums) fix any issues as that might in turn make it even more accurate. Also to show that we're reaching a kind of stupid level of stats and %s that can make it get kind of wonky. If you pay close enough attention. Me changing from a 360 second fight duration to a 283 second fight made the dps go from 1.87m to 256m dps. The math behind the engine itself is gorgeous, but it still has its limitations.

    I also agree that the T15 set needs a nerf, I just hope they compensate if they do so. I want combat to be viable again. (You can make an argument that they are right now, but we all know that most high end rogues are running mastery built Assassination specs.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also: tinyurl.com/mxfmdck was the highest I could get it to sim without messing with the fight duration.

    Highest I could get it to sim total was tinyurl.com/k3ahqza 562m dps.... Lol so broken
    Last edited by Lethim; 2013-08-26 at 03:44 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by zerynax View Post
    Since it seems you quite quickly strolled into here Pathal, and might be easier for you to get a hold of the ShC guys if you're not directly involved anymore (EJ is kinda dead these days):
    If you run full t15HC+CD reducing trinket+multistrike one, the t14-4p suddenly EP-spikes to 900k value for some reason lol.
    Seems it for some reason counts the t15-4p as baseline or something, but swapping any piece to break 4-set for Combat fixes the issue.
    I'm not sure that is an error with the t14 4pc and that it is how that has always worked. It displays the value of things based on what you currently have equipped. Its the same for how a hit/exp item may show lower before you equip and reforge it because you are currently over cap.

  13. #13
    tinyurl.com/lwf967e Gained 4m dps by switching from Deadly to Wound... Because ShC has Deadly Poison's DoT as negative dps. 566m dps

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by zerynax View Post
    Since it seems you quite quickly strolled into here Pathal, and might be easier for you to get a hold of the ShC guys if you're not directly involved anymore (EJ is kinda dead these days):
    If you run full t15HC+CD reducing trinket+multistrike one, the t14-4p suddenly EP-spikes to 900k value for some reason lol.
    Seems it for some reason counts the t15-4p as baseline or something, but swapping any piece to break 4-set for Combat fixes the issue.
    The reason for this is because the t15 4-set increases shadow blades uptime, which in turn makes the shadow blades extended duration 4-set of t14 more valuable. The engine doesn't care about mutual exclusivity--it just shows you the value of the set bonus based on your current gear.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethim View Post
    tinyurl.com/lwf967e Gained 4m dps by switching from Deadly to Wound... Because ShC has Deadly Poison's DoT as negative dps. 566m dps
    You silly guy, save up 20$. Going Worgen gives you a 45k increase for a noticeable 0,00795% DPS increase.
    Fluorescent - Fluo - currently retired, playing other stuff

    i5-4670k @ 4.5 / Thermalright Silver Arrow Extreme / Gigabyte Z87X-D3H / 8GB DDR3-1600 RAM / Gigabyte GTX 760

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilate View Post
    That's the whole point of why I actually tweeted him what I did. Combat is going to be viable with or without t15 pc imo,
    Without the cd trinket its not fine without the t15. All thats happening is trading a 4 piece for a trinket if they nerf t15. They need to stop do things like this period its not fun more so if rng isn't nice to you.
    Last edited by wow; 2013-08-26 at 06:43 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Without the cd trinket its not fine without the t15. All thats happening is trading a 4 piece for a trinket if they nerf t15. They need to stop do things like this period its not fun more so if rng isn't nice to you.
    Not going to deny that Combat is being balanced around the new trinket from this tier. It sucks that an entire class is balanced around one trinket. However, this isn't the first time it's happened in WoW and it for sure won't be the last. Rogues were balanced around DST in TBC and DBW in WotLK for example. At the end of the day, I'd rather be balanced around a trinket from the current tier than a set bonus from the previous tier. It actually gives you a reason to want the new gear over the old.

  18. #18
    Right now, I'm poking around in the backend to see what might happen when it goes live. I didn't use the exact same stats and settings but they're pretty close, I'm just trying to save time.

    I don't see it scaling out of control anymore, which I noticed only happens when the CDs are not stacked. The settings you used would place the final DPS somewhere around 400k, but much higher (though not scaling out of control) if they are stacked. I don't think I've seen anyone able to show that the stacked calculations are broken like shown in the OP.

    I'll keep an eye on this situation in case I'm still missing something.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilate View Post
    Not going to deny that Combat is being balanced around the new trinket from this tier. It sucks that an entire class is balanced around one trinket. However, this isn't the first time it's happened in WoW and it for sure won't be the last. Rogues were balanced around DST in TBC and DBW in WotLK for example. At the end of the day, I'd rather be balanced around a trinket from the current tier than a set bonus from the previous tier. It actually gives you a reason to want the new gear over the old.
    Of course they have to balance around trinkets. I mean, if everybody deals the same damage, the ones with better trinket scaling rule.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    Of course they have to balance around trinkets. I mean, if everybody deals the same damage, the ones with better trinket scaling rule.
    Balancing that way is totally fine, having a 40k difference between having one item or not (as was the case with 4pc T15) is not.
    Fluorescent - Fluo - currently retired, playing other stuff

    i5-4670k @ 4.5 / Thermalright Silver Arrow Extreme / Gigabyte Z87X-D3H / 8GB DDR3-1600 RAM / Gigabyte GTX 760

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