Some encouraging news for Destro locks in 5.4 finally

[Shodan30]

The 'water cooler' for warlocks is kind of funny. Amazing how GC's job appears to be making poo smell like flowers.

Isnt it nice how he helped us get rid of those unneccessary embers?

[Werst]

RoF should have been fixed in 5.3 beta....then again so should the rest of destro's damage scaling. It was nice at 500ilvl in ToT normal but became utter dog crap by the time we were in heroics. Rachet that up to tforged 2/2 549+ and yeah...it sucks. Jack that up into SoO ilvl's and the gap keeps getting wider. GC may hate the word scaling but he should actually fix SCALING problems if he doesn't want to hear it. Until then he's just doing a bad job and lacking the professional responsibility to at least own up to it.

Here we are in 5.4 and RoF is gone (mostly) but destro is still a cripple. Just not GC took away the wheelchair/crutches since they were not intended. Hope he feels good about "fixing" destro so well. Job bloody well done eh?

[THRiLL KiLL]

Fact is you need to stop being a crybaby learn to play. Destro has some very nice things to play with, you just need to open your eyes.

1. Which other dps class in the game can heal themselves by 33% of max hp in one global? 3 globals and you top up YOURSELF. Not even healing specs can heal that much without using CDs. Sure it comes at the cost of dps, but you CAN do it if you ever need to. Ember tap is actually very useful in PvE if u care about not dying, helping your healers in critical moments, and downing the boss rather than whoring the meters.

2. One of the best sustained aoe specs in the game. Tied with ele shamans which excel at 5-7 targets, but destro is very powerful when there are more targets. You can do it from ranged (unlike demo without MF), and you can even move while doing it if you take KJC.

3. Best on demand burst in the game over short periods of time (5-15 sec). Look at Ra-den.

Yes destro lacks a bit in single target and multidot fights, but tbh if destro was ace-ing those too, i would hardly see any point in playing something else.

Destro doesn't need any overhaul, your thinking does.

that was awesome when we had a constant (quick) way to generate embers..

now... i feel thoes days are over..

[Brusalk]

that was awesome when we had a constant (quick) way to generate embers..

now... i feel thoes days are over..

You can roughly expect to gain 2 emberbits per cast per target now.

[kendro1200]

''Sir Destro still sucks''
''If we buff it the PVP people will cry''


:3

Didn't stop them with frost or aff.
Why they find it perfectly acceptable to break certain specs in pve for a very small pvp sample has always been beyond me (feral anyone?). If they were willing to break any spec in pve for pvp reasons then it'd be fine, but destro has suffered from this since vanilla, it can't be allowed to function smoothly because for some reason the game will come to a screaming halt if destro actually worked well in pve and pvp. But ya, 5.4 should be the poster child for why big class changes should not be done in a content patch unless it's the only class getting changes that patch. Warlocks didn't get "nerfed", there were just certain things broken and other things made stupid that resulted in a minor nerf to damage, but lowered a future scaling ceiling by a lot. Ignoring 3-5 target scenarios, destro won't be that worse off in 5.4 than it already was in comparison to demo and aff in 5.2 and 5.3. The issue is that 3-5 targets has become super awkward in comparison where it was just a simple transition from chaos cleaving to more fire and brimstone. Now it's chaos cleaving and...more single target spells, with a little RoF on the side. I can't see how any developer could look at that situation, "Oh hey look it's time to aoe....um, well previously I wouldn't run out of embers but in this build with the nerfed ember generation I can't use my aoe abilities in an obviously aoe situation." and think, "Well, that seems great, let's ship it!" Anyone with half a brain should have realized there were only two options at that point
1) find a way to up ember generation without attaching it to rain of fire, so an aoe spell wasn't being used in a single target rotation (what the community was requesting)
2) if 1 can't be satisfied, keep it as is and slate it to be fixed in an xpack, the meta was going away in the 5.4 patch so destro should have caught up with the others not having unending affliction and the meta to prop them up to insane numbers through gimmicks.
Instead a half-a'ed job was done, and a spec that had at least been useful in earlier tiers was made pointless. A giant leap backwards like that in overall class balance should be a giant red flag for something being seriously wrong on not only team competence but oversight of employees and their work ethics.

[Mormolyce]

They have a Chaos Bolt specific pvp knob they can tweak. I still don't think it's officially documented in any patch notes, just blue posts (and even then only after they got called out for the stealth nerf). Just increase its pve damage even more, and decrease its pvp damage by the same amount, if they don't want people crying about being unable to interrupt or LoS a 3-second cast.

I read that post as a deliberate PVP buff.

[Werst]

Still not a bit of repair to the mechanics that make destro suck balance wise (or just have an artificially low scaling ceiling)....a destro napkin math would look something like:

1. Reduce ember generation in even single target by 30%'ish and neuter haste scaling while you are at it.
2. Buff immolate 10% so 10% to 10%'ish of your damage aka 1% buff
3. Buff chaosbolt 15% so 15% to 30%'ish so 4.5%'ish except we have 30% less embers so 2.5-3%
4. Buff incinerate 10% so 10% to 30%'ish thus 3%'ish gain.

Even at 535ilvl destro is behind significantly, by 550ilvl its a chasm, the buffs we have seen do not get destro even to where it was with RoF. (try running a 530-7 sim w' RoF absent from the APL) Best case is about 7% gain from the RoF'less 530-7 APL. There is no massive synergy with a trinket or set bonus like what demo had with UVLS or aff has with the LMG. Even the 4xT16 has an ICD so faster ember generation isn't rewarded by the set bonus with the 2pc being utter crap.

With the flood of live data I would predict aff takes a kick in the balls via hotfix and destro doesn't get fixed period or not even attempted to be fixed before 5.5 (or later). Any takers on that bet?

[Las Vegas]

I don't think everyone plays this game with Min-max in mind. There will be some people playing it because they enjoy it.. or they hate affy/demo.

I am also sure it will have it's niche somewhere.

Hear hear. I will play desto no matter what. Then again, I don't raid on a competitive level, so it doesn't matter. But god, do I hate affliction and demo..

[Xanatas]

in PTR, incinerate +10% damage.

[Shodan30]

Is it still worse then fel flame?

[Gihelle]

The general consensus seems to be that Fel Flame is still worth using while there's no Backdraft procs.

Seems that the buff was just enough to make the 100% FF strat not so good.

[Werst]

If you run a 530-7 destro sim and take RoF out of the APL you can see that the buffs napkin math out as follows:
*Immolate: 10% buff to 10% of our damage so 1%
*Chaosbolt: 15% buff to 30% of our damage BUT we lose 30%+ ember generation due to RoF being gone so that 4.5% gain goes down to 2.5-3%'ish
*Incinerate: 10% buff to 30% of our damage so 3% gain.

TLDR we lose 30% ember generation and get 7% damage gain (at best) from the other "buffs". For comparison (insert sims disclaimer) sake even without EA glyph I still sim in demo (w' my own opener APL) about 265K. RoF'less destro is about 215K in the same gear...219K if I optimize stats (read: flush haste like a turd). That nearly 20% gap isn't even halfway covered by the other buffs to destro. I picked this example since aff changes quite a bit while demo/destro are close enough you can get a rough idea with the out of date simC if you set up the specs to things that still hold true in 5.4 patch. Or I just need more coffee this morning...also a possibility.

I'm not surprised the full time FF rotation was crapped on and I'm glad they did it by buffing incinerate than nerfing FF lol. That said its still a solid alternative for movement or if you need embers asap. (or things like Thok towards the end of the fight) On a heavy mastery > crit build I think FF might be worth it non backdrafted by the time you account for ember generation (clearly its less dmg).

[Brusalk]

If you run a 530-7 destro sim and take RoF out of the APL you can see that the buffs napkin math out as follows:
*Immolate: 10% buff to 10% of our damage so 1%
*Chaosbolt: 15% buff to 30% of our damage BUT we lose 30%+ ember generation due to RoF being gone so that 4.5% gain goes down to 2.5-3%'ish
*Incinerate: 10% buff to 30% of our damage so 3% gain.

TLDR we lose 30% ember generation and get 7% damage gain (at best) from the other "buffs". For comparison (insert sims disclaimer) sake even without EA glyph I still sim in demo (w' my own opener APL) about 265K. RoF'less destro is about 215K in the same gear...219K if I optimize stats (read: flush haste like a turd). That nearly 20% gap isn't even halfway covered by the other buffs to destro. I picked this example since aff changes quite a bit while demo/destro are close enough you can get a rough idea with the out of date simC if you set up the specs to things that still hold true in 5.4 patch. Or I just need more coffee this morning...also a possibility.

I'm not surprised the full time FF rotation was crapped on and I'm glad they did it by buffing incinerate than nerfing FF lol. That said its still a solid alternative for movement or if you need embers asap. (or things like Thok towards the end of the fight) On a heavy mastery > crit build I think FF might be worth it non backdrafted by the time you account for ember generation (clearly its less dmg).

Hate to break it to you but the 10% buff to Incin isn't enough to make it any better than Fel Flame. I still see a 1k increase using Fel Flame filler in T15H gear.

[Xag]

''Sir Destro still sucks''
''If we buff it the PVP people will cry''


:3

The funny part is that the buff to CB will cause PVP people to cry...AND they didnt fix the spec...

Such fail...horrid fail

[Schmeebs]

The funny part is that the buff to CB will cause PVP people to cry...AND they didnt fix the spec...

Such fail...horrid fail

Anyone whining about destro is pvp was really really bad. Chaos Bolt hits like a wet noodle most of the time against players now.

[Dumaw]

Yep, just as I thought, destro screwed, and affliction going to be the one spec for pvp again

[Xag]

Anyone whining about destro is pvp was really really bad. Chaos Bolt hits like a wet noodle most of the time against players now.

Agreed. Even before when it hit hard, good players never let the cast get off or Los it. Blizz catered to the players that just couldnt figure out how to hit an interrupt with a 3 second cast lol

[THRiLL KiLL]

i play lock primary in pvp.

I loved the mobility of the class. and even though destruction was not the top dps.. it made up for it in mobility and self healing.

now its a giant steaming pile of....

having to stand and cast everything makes us sitting ducks for the super friendly melee classes. Ember generation is a joke (in pvp at least)

i guess i need to learn affliction or find some other class that i find fun.


okay im done bitching. in reality i will learn to live with it

[Werst]

Had a ally lock CB me on the isle (I'm horde/troll) my twilight ward soaked it completely. About then UVLS procc'd and I SB:SS'd him w' troll/darksoul/herbalism and he melted before I could even flash DS on him for the free shards. Same thing vs a DK ganker (w/o UVLS proc) and I melted him through AMS (he hit it after I got dots/MG up).

Anyhow, we ran 2x 25m groups through juggernaut tonight (mostly same people, alts + mains for gear) and we had someone who is 551ilvl geared and very good trying destro....TLDR = it sucked. Even on gala when they could shadowburn snipe/cleave freely. Like "down w' the tanks" bad most of the time. Their gear was 9778 haste > mastery > crit but I really don't think that would have changed anything.

[Vinavi]

PvP aside, Destro seems to be working fine on live in Flex Raid at least on fights with adds.