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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Luxeley View Post
    - the lack of DPS from undergeared players due to high resilience
    - huge imbalance in regular bg comps due to a role cueing system that does not work.
    - the virtual and near complete removal of tanks from PVP.
    - world PVP is a complete and utter joke now that Heroic Raid Gear, with skill being equal or close to equal, trumps top of the line PVP gear.
    - PVP progression is virtually non-existent which is a ridiculous aspect for a MMO to embrace.
    - beating and besting the game is more of an exploit than a testement of skill
    - crowd control measures are immensely out of control to the put of rendering a PVP trinket useless.
    - the homogenization of classes.
    1) Is that really different then the previous system, where people would be oneshot for not having resil gear.
    2) Agreed. I don't like it and so I don't play randoms, but rather I play RBGS or Arenas. Besides, equating random BGs with PvP is unfortunate.
    3) Tanks can be still viable in very specific situations in RBGs i.e., Flag Carriers. If you want tanks in random BGs, well you also need people to coordinate with, which we all know will not happen.
    4) Agreed, although I particularly do not care.
    5) PvP progression does exist, in the form of personal rating. #1 BABY!!!
    6) If either team can do it, it's not an exploit.
    7) They are a bit much, in terms of how many are under the banner of instants.
    8) Huh? you mean balance? Which, in MOP, PvP balance is the best it's ever been.

  2. #22
    Brewmaster Alanar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luxeley View Post
    I stand corrected, source I used (the ingame tooltip as well as wowhead) happened to be incorrect. So, Im somewhat wrong on one point out of about 25pts. The fact is, if a player does not possess an absorb ability and/or an ability to temporarily boost his health, it places him at a disadvantage. You simply heard one incorrect pt and hurl the rest of the pts in the mix, that is myopic and unfair.
    Maybe I was to harsh there, but you used that point in the whole dis/advantages people have in a bg.


  3. #23
    My reasons:

    1 - Greg Street is an untalented, bad and lazy designer.

    2 - He is heavily raid oriented and does not care about PvP.

    3 - He and his team get paid (by the players) even when delivering bad work.

    4 - He has no idea how to implement fairness and skill into the game and so to create a competitive environment.

    5 - He stopped caring and is questionable if he sometimes even cared.

    6 - he favors and disfavors specific classes based on his wow gameplay experience (look up the interview where he tells how shaman were hugely OP in vanilla and one of the refused to quest with him , which offended him, also he got one-shoted by a legendary wielding enhancement, etc.)

    7 - he likes gear > class > RNG > skill
    My wife came to me and asked: "What have you done to the poor cat? She is half dead..."

  4. #24
    How about this. Make pvp fun again so people enjoy playing it. Winning is always fun, that aside if the games are good, even if you loose you will want to keep playing. I even think PvE is getting stupid with all these crazy trinkets.

  5. #25
    About gear progression, I have no problem with players having to PvP for gear, but the whole rating requirement is too much. I won't mind gear progression based on rating as soon as

    1) All classes are 100% balanced in 1v1
    2) All compositions are balanced 100% in against all others.
    3) Latency is no longer as big of a factor where a player with 30ms latency can't best a better player with 130ms latency.

    Until those are fixed, you really have it right as skill is less important that class balance and group compositions and you have to remember, not every likes arena.

    As for Tanks not being a viable PvP spec, that is easy to get around, change it so tanking specs have magic based mitigation based in part by their physical mitigation as well, effectively turning them into a giant rock that neither kills nor dies fast, it will allow them to be VERY viable in battlegrounds, 1v1 and even in arena as they can effectively lock down players while being healed. In my opinion, tanks should honestly be the only CC heavy specs, other should have some level of control, but tanks should be the masters of it and it would make them much more reactive when actually tanking.

    As far as the damage being out of control, blizzard has repeatedly ignored one thing they should honestly take to heart. If the damage is too high for PvP, it is too high for PvE don't require or allow it, if the healing is too high for PvP it is too high for PvE don't require or allow it, if the ability is too strong for PvP it is too strong for PvE and shouldn't even be in the book. Resilience shouldn't be required and honestly shouldn't even be in the game as PvP gear should give you an edge in PvP over raid gear, but not a clean sweep.

    And world PvP has been dead since WotLK, whole reason why I quit.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    Agreed on most, except the progression part. PvP should have no progression, because there should be no gear period. Competition is always best when everyone is on equal footing at all times. I would also add that healing has gotten far too effective over the last couple expansions, which is a huge issue in PvP. It just makes the game incredibly stale, especially when combined with the other problems.
    The whole point of an MMO is making your toon better over time. You might as well play Smite or something if you feel that way.

  7. #27
    Only thing that I hate about PvP these days is the absurd amount of CC and lack of DR on just about everything. Don't really care about gear progression, It's necessary because otherwise PvE gear would dominate but I'd rather everyone have equal gear and have skill be a bigger factor in PvP.

    I don't really see the point with World PvP though, it's virtually non existent anyway.
    People don't forgive, they forget. - Rust Cohle

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Luxeley View Post
    - the lack of DPS from undergeared players due to high resilience
    - huge imbalance in regular bg comps due to a role cueing system that does not work.
    - crowd control measures are immensely out of control to the put of rendering a PVP trinket useless.
    - the homogenization of classes.
    I am with you on these points.

    - the virtual and near complete removal of tanks from PVP.
    - world PVP is a complete and utter joke now that Heroic Raid Gear, with skill being equal or close to equal, trumps top of the line PVP gear.
    I disagree completely that these matter. Tanks are bullshit in PvP. They have always been either useless or wildly OP. Good riddance. If you are serious about balancing tanks:

    1)- Rogues need a way to kill tanks. Rogues are not random fucking mobs. You shouldn't smile when a rogue opens on your blood DK, you should panic.
    2)- ALL MELEE AS WELL also needs this. Just because non-rogues can spec ranged or tank or heal doesn't mean that they should be useless in their melee spec.
    3)- Once tanks have lost their passive advantages (to whatever solved 1 and 2), then we need to ramp up their ability to deal some solid burst, without making them like a dpser in PvE. This can't just be based on really awful long stuns, it needs to be more clever than that.

    Basically, tanks need to be stronger at taking punches in PvP, but nowhere NEAR as strong as they are in a raid. If you are A-OK to tank heroic Ji'Kun's claw rake, you shouldn't be bringing that mitigation to PvP. Then, they need to be able to contribute to dps and burst, but presumably not quite as much as a dps, but more than they bring in a raid sans vengeance.


    World PvP is a clusterfuck, sure. And right now, raiders ownyface. I get that too, and in fact I love it, because I can wear my PvE gear to somewhere besides a raid (previous tiers I always had to switch in a bunch of PvP gear before zoning out, or die in like a gouge or something).

    But.... why should arena players get "owns face at world pvp" for free? You don't get conquest from world pvp. The claim that PvP gear should win in world pvp is just as lacking as the claim that RAID gear should win in world pvp. Neither has a principled reason to do so. I tweeted GC and Holinka multiple times about this before 5.3, pointing out the core issue: you'll probably UPSET more PvPers if, even in unrated open PvP, you suddenly hand this carrot over to the heroic raiders. Or, at least this tier, even the regular mode raiders- 522 upgraded to 530 is really good compared to 496 with some bonus damage, and that difference was greatly increased by the double nerf of PvP Power at the last moment. Back when 496 gear was going to be +50% bonus damage you could make the case, but it didn't go live like that.

    - PVP progression is virtually non-existent which is a ridiculous aspect for a MMO to embrace.
    - beating and besting the game is more of an exploit than a testement of skill
    The first I think is ok for PvP. Given how powerful the item jumps are, I'm ok with there not being much "progression". Assuming you are talking gear.

    The second I don't really agree with, but I do agree that it feels like you really need to play some BS nonsense to get winning this tier.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Priority View Post
    How about this. Make pvp fun again so people enjoy playing it. Winning is always fun, that aside if the games are good, even if you loose you will want to keep playing. I even think PvE is getting stupid with all these crazy trinkets.
    I understand and agree with your point. If you build it, they will come = if you make the game fun, people will play. Winning isn't a prioty for me nor is a perfectly fair playing field, all I want is a fighting chance. And, if you step into a WSG w/1 healer vs 3 healers on the opposite side, there is a high probability you will lose. That is not a fighting chance, competitive or quality game design.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Tanks are bullshit in PvP. They have always been either useless or wildly OP. Good riddance.
    I assume you didn't watch the video and that's ok, it runs longer than I wanted it to. The point I made about tanks is that they are completely omitted from PVP now. And, I don't think it's smart move alienating the most important and crucial role in the game. You are correct, they are either too strong or too weak; either way I don't believe for a second the answer is removing them from PVP entirely.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    But.... why should arena players get "owns face at world pvp" for free? You don't get conquest from world pvp. The claim that PvP gear should win in world pvp is just as lacking as the claim that RAID gear should win in world pvp. Neither has a principled reason to do so. I tweeted GC and Holinka multiple times about this before 5.3, pointing out the core issue: you'll probably UPSET more PvPers if, even in unrated open PvP, you suddenly hand this carrot over to the heroic raiders. Or, at least this tier, even the regular mode raiders- 522 upgraded to 530 is really good compared to 496 with some bonus damage, and that difference was greatly increased by the double nerf of PvP Power at the last moment. Back when 496 gear was going to be +50% bonus damage you could make the case, but it didn't go live like that.
    All I want is fighting chance against someone in heroic raid gear w/the same ballpark of skill. But, the numbers tell the story. Equal resilience. 496 Ilvl vs 522Ilvl w/about 10-15% more stamina, greater secondary stats and off the charts better dmg bonuses. Another huge problem is at the start of the PVP season, heroic raid gear players will have a slight advantage in BGs, RBGs and Arena because their I level will be higher. As you can plainly see, Blizzard really thought this whole plan out.
    Last edited by Luxeley; 2013-08-31 at 02:07 AM.

  10. #30
    Bloodsail Admiral Taros's Avatar
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    In terms of PvP progression, does anyone remember Ultima Online when faction pvp came out? That was the shit. Each time you got online and met up with your friends to go do some PvP it was actually meaningful gameplay. Would love to go back to that.

  11. #31
    There have been numerous ideas about what blizzard could do (to improve the quality and fun factor) throughout pvp forums on many sites. The ideas are out there but they are not ever implemented, why you may ask. Maybe the devs just don't care as Luxeley said in video "...you know what, just screw it..." regarding devs possible thoughts over the role feature.
    The real reason why is unknow.
    Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.

  12. #32
    My only problem with pvp is how absurdly overpowered healing is relative to damage done. Feels like world of healcraft most of the time in BGs. Whatever team has stronger healers is going to win.

    Not to mention the frustration of getting a healer down to low health and POOF they're back to full health in one, uninterruptable instant. It's stupid.

    Don't touch them in pve (I realize they are strong because they need to be strong to keep 10-20 people up in raids), but they need to be brought down a few notches in pvp. They don't need to run around like mini-bosses.

    I'm all for the separation of pve and pvp talents/skills.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldhearth View Post
    I'm all for the separation of pve and pvp talents/skills.
    Me too, the devs state thought "this would be too confusing for new players..." what new players ^^
    Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.

  14. #34
    I watched your entire video and read all the posts in this thread so I'm going to try and not double-up too much thats been said already. I'll try to keep this short but I feel like you're wrong on nearly every point you make - and it'll take a bit to explain why.


    #8 Lack of DPS from undergeared players

    This was implemented because in every previous season, a newly dinged character would do no damage AND die fast. They would increase their stats on gear while also increasing resilience. In every season apart from the one we are in right now, people in bad gear were completely useless. What's ironic is that if they did damage, then what's the use in getting gear? You base your entire #4 on how you feel gear progression has gone, but complain about people being useless without gear.

    You also go on to say that people in bad gear don't CC, when that's not true at all. The entire premise of allowing undergeared players to live longer was so that they could be of use in fights with CC, interrupts, etc. Badly geared players CC as much as your average BG-goer.

    Regarding this entire point though, i'd much much much rather survive longer in a fight but do little-to-no damage, than do the same damage as someone in full tyrannical but have 65% less resilience.


    #7 Healing out of control

    Your main argument here seems to be that absorbs are not affected by battle fatigue, when they clearly are (It takes 5 seconds to test). You also complain about a Hunter vs Spriest situation where you say that because a Spriest has heals, they will always win the 1v1... which is just so so wrong. Your argument is that any class with a heal will beat any class that doesn't have a heal? Nearly every single class can beat Elementals and Boomkins in a duel without using major cooldowns. If you were to give both classes a pocket healer.. the one with the hybrid should work, right? Because it's got more healing!!! Wrong. Mage/Priest and Hunter/Priest are 2 of the best 2v2 comps right now, with Boomkin/Healer, Spriest/Healer and Ele/Healer being pretty damn useless (although Ele/healer is significantly better, but because of LvB procs, not healing).

    You also argue that healing is so strong that you'd always much rather have a healer in a BG than a DPS. My argument is that this is because healers are rarer. Imagine if you had 8 healers and 2 DPS - Would you rather trade one of those DPS in for another healer, or drop one of those healers for a DPS? Healers are strong, sure, and having 1-2 in a BG can be a massive boost... but they aren't so strong that you can completely ignore having DPS in your BG.


    #6 Tanks in PvP

    The point you make here is that tanks are non-existent in PvP, which is partly wrong. Guardian Druids, Prot Warriors and Blood DKs are still used as RBG tanks - and are a vital part of the RBG community. Overall, my opinion on this point is that outside of RBGs, Tanks don't serve a purpose and shouldn't be made viable. Infact, fighting tanks is probably one of the most infuriating things in PvP. Good riddance.


    #5 World PvP

    I actually agree with your point on this one, but you think about it weirdly. Later in your video you argue that non-FOTM classes are great because it's more of a challenge and makes you better, but here you argue you want the same gear level because it's unfair you're weaker.

    Anyway, PvE players have higher item levels - but PvP players have PvP Power (which isn't budgeted for in ilevel) - overall the full heroic thunderforged player still has an edge, but it's not as massive as a lot of people think - and honestly how many PvE players in that sort of gear are just walking around doing dailies etc.

    Besides, the PvP player will have PvP oriented talent choices and have the correct spells on his bars for fighting PvP. Generally PVP players should be more honed to reacting to PvP combat anyway, so you'll have the edge on a PvE player in that respect too. I do agree that PvP and PvE gear should be the same in world PvP, and Blizzard has stated that they aren't comfortable with PvP gear being worse.


    #4 Gear Progression

    Weird point. You argue that undergeared players do no damage than go on to say gear progression doesn't exist anymore. We still go Crafted Blues > Honor Blues > Conquest Epics. Every season we get a new set of conquest epics to earn and then we're done. Gear progression doesn't deserve a spot in PvP and has been one of the most complained about things since BC. Why would you even want it back? It'd make starter players feel even worse, and would give anyone who has the time to gear up fully a larger advantage against those who don't. I actually don't understand people who WANT gear progression back, it's just weird.


    #3 Exploitation (FotM)

    I'm a FotM player so my opinion might be a little biased. Your argument is that people flock to playing the FotM and that it's 'plain wrong'. You say that people should always play the weakest class and make it great. I think that it's just your opinion, that playing non-FotM makes you better. It doesn't prove anything at all.

    I understand people who play the same class for years, they have a connection to their toon or they like that certain playstyle and don't want to drop it. I've got a friend who's played warrior since vanilla, and still plays it every season without fail. The problem is that in lata Cata he was completely useless, not because he's bad (far from it), but because his class just simply wasn't very good at all. It meant he had no Arena teams and no RBG teams would take him. Why you would want anyone to inflict that on themselves is just strange.

    At the top of the BG ladder, at the top of the RBG ladder and at the top of all the Arena ladders everyone is playing FotM, and for very very few of them it's actually what they consider their main class. The entire idea of being good at WoW PvP is the ability to multiclass and multispec. I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning for playing Spriest, and if you played it back in early Cata or swapped to it when MoP hit.


    #2 CC out of control & #1 Homogenisation

    I'm lumping these two into one because you contradict yourself entirely with these. Your first argument is that CC is out of control, which I agree is probably an issue in BGs, but in RBGs and 3s it's only a minor issue. Instant CC is overtuned, but CC overall is probably in a good spot. If more was avoidable(casted) then it'd be near perfect in my opinion.

    Anyway, the reason they gave every class lots of CC and nearly 1 of every DR is because of this: Homogenisation.

    Your #1 point is that they haven't gone far enough and need to keep going.. What?! 30 seconds before this you were complaining about too many classes having CC and too much of it, now you are arguing for classes to be even more similar which (guess what!) means they'd share even more CC.

    The main reason you take a class in 3s is because of CC DR. It's the reason comps like Feral/Balance don't work at all, and yet Feral/Spriest and Feral/Ele are two of the best comps out there atm.


    (Sorry for typos etc, only just woke up)

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