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  1. #441
    Why do people like something I hate? I'm afterall the standard that every human on Earth should follow!

  2. #442
    Mechagnome Jaojin's Avatar
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    Ill just leave this here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeUhSjuhQYE
    "And what's the real lesson? Don't leave food in the fridge."
    -Spike Spiegel

  3. #443
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    Have you read that list at all? Compared the first kill dates to the release of the patches? Go do it, plx. You'll find that virtually all content has been cleared faster after TBC, why is that?
    Yes..I have read that list AND compared it with release dates. SWP bosses fell the day that the gates opened. BT was cleared up to Mother Shazz (resistance check) very fast. Even Naxx 40 that ..like ....a handful of people ever saw was cleared half way in the first week.

    Now..ofc we can open the debate if C'thun was bugged or people had no skill because he lasted so long..but I think the consensus is bugged.

    Look..I am not posting this list for fun, I have been posting this list for years on this forum when topics like the one here arise (and they always do)

    I have been here since day 1. I raided in Classic, in TBC, and onwards. I raided current content. I loved all the x-pacs. I just cannot stand this "everything was better in the old days" shit. And I swear in RL none of you can stand it, because that is the stuff that your parents and relaives tend to bore you with. You know..the sort of "In my time we walked 10 miles to school barefoot in the snow and it was uphill both ways"
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  4. #444
    The Patient meloreandor's Avatar
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    I loved TBC. Lost of good memories with beginning raiding and pvp and exploring outland. Bad memories too.

    But I rather it be a nostalgic memory than to re live the whole expansion again.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Dangg View Post
    The term 'welfare epics' and complains about Epic gear being to easy to obtain started in Burning Crusade.
    Welfare epics? Hell, I remember carrying bad people through ZG to get loot.

    Epic is a meaningless designation anyways.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Yes..I have read that list AND compared it with release dates. SWP bosses fell the day that the gates opened. BT was cleared up to Mother Shazz (resistance check) very fast. Even Naxx 40 that ..like ....a handful of people ever saw was cleared half way in the first week.

    Now..ofc we can open the debate if C'thun was bugged or people had no skill because he lasted so long..but I think the consensus is bugged.

    Look..I am not posting this list for fun, I have been posting this list for years on this forum when topics like the one here arise (and they always do)

    I have been here since day 1. I raided in Classic, in TBC, and onwards. I raided current content. I loved all the x-pacs. I just cannot stand this "everything was better in the old days" shit. And I swear in RL none of you can stand it, because that is the stuff that your parents and relaives tend to bore you with. You know..the sort of "In my time we walked 10 miles to school barefoot in the snow and it was uphill both ways"
    M'uru says hi.

  7. #447
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glycerethe View Post
    M'uru says hi.
    Yes...and so does HM Lich King. Who was never killed before the buff was applied. Now what? WotLK was still called Wrath of the casual King. So...M'uru says "Hi" and that makes TBC awesome and HM LK says "Hi" but that doesn't count?

    What is it with you guys. Are you part of any of the guilds who cleared Naxx 40, BT, SWP, ICC or now ToT as a world first? You gonna be judgemental on how fast raids were cleared by OTHERS who are NOT you?

    Was every boss in TBC on the PTR as well? Did we have addons and datamining on the same scope?
    Last edited by det; 2013-08-31 at 05:04 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  8. #448
    Brewmaster Ceethemage's Avatar
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    1. The raids
    2. Heroics were ACTUALLY heroics and I had a love hate relationship with Shattered Halls.
    3. Tailoring was specialized and if you were specialized in Spellcloth you had to fight the boss to craft it every CD.
    4. Awesome world bosses and world PvP
    5. I actually felt like I earned my gear
    6. I actually liked having to do attunements.
    7. Like Axylum said the tier looked amazing back then and anyone who got a set was taken seriously and they wanted to group with you.

    Like Axylum also said I could go on and on about what made BC, BC but if you were not there you won't ever get it. The same goes for the original (classic) WoW if you didn't do it you wont ever get it.

  9. #449
    Mechagnome Jaojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Did we have addons and datamining on the same scope?
    Not trying to nitpick, but there was an addon that told you exactly where, when, and how to move to avoid the energy orbs of Void Reaver (thus the nickname "Loot Reaver", cause the energy orbs were the most difficult aspect of the whole fight.)

    I also used many more addons in BC than I do these days. So just a bit a perspective there.

    Also one of my favorite sites back then was Thottbot, which heavily used datamining.
    "And what's the real lesson? Don't leave food in the fridge."
    -Spike Spiegel

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Yes...and so does HM Lich King. Who was never killed before the buff was applied. Now what? WotLK was still called Wrath of the casual King. So...M'uru says "Hi" and that makes TBC awesome and HM LK says "Hi" but that doesn't count?

    What is it with you guys. Are you part of any of the guilds who cleared Naxx 40, BT, SWP, ICC or now ToT as a world first? You gonna be judgemental on how fast raids were cleared by OTHERS who are NOT you?

    Was every boss in TBC on the PTR as well? Did we have addons and datamining on the same scope?
    Keep convincing yourself, lol

  11. #451
    The biggest reasons is because it was likely when most people learned to raid correctly. Vanilla raids were boring as hell and required insane time efforts, so they obviously saw low participation. With TBC raids became more accessible with lower number of people required, and more loot dropping per person meant you were actually progressing your character at a decent pace. So for many, TBC was their first real raiding experience, and of course you can never achieve that "first time" feeling ever again.

    I myself have fond memories of it. There were some really awesome fights back then. Far better than Vanilla. But I really would never want to go back, having nothing but raiding, mat farming, and daily heroic was annoying. And the fights were pretty much as awesome as they were today it's not like they were any better. That's when I started leveling alts heh.
    Last edited by Vongimi; 2013-08-31 at 06:07 PM.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H3-N9zoI5c Amazing video of 60+ devilsaurs raiding Undercity!


    My God, what a horrible creation. People seeing what they want? Thank God they tried to shy away from that. I know it pisses me off when I'm in an heroic raid, yet in the back of my head all I can think is 'some casual player is playing a heroic dungeon and not wiping.' -Vodkarn

  12. #452
    Brewmaster Ceethemage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Yes...and so does HM Lich King. Who was never killed before the buff was applied. Now what? WotLK was still called Wrath of the casual King. So...M'uru says "Hi" and that makes TBC awesome and HM LK says "Hi" but that doesn't count?

    What is it with you guys. Are you part of any of the guilds who cleared Naxx 40, BT, SWP, ICC or now ToT as a world first? You gonna be judgemental on how fast raids were cleared by OTHERS who are NOT you?

    Was every boss in TBC on the PTR as well? Did we have addons and datamining on the same scope?
    No some bosses in TBC were never on the PTR because they wanted the experience to be a surprise. We did have addons back then though I had a few I enjoyed.
    I was a part of some hardcore guilds back in BC before and then also in WOTLK but I never "Judge" others that always annoyed me and still does.

    The beginning of WOTLK was awesome I actually enjoyed it but when they took a bat to it and made it feel like gear was "free for all" I lost my like for it.

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by glycerethe View Post
    M'uru says hi.
    M'uru was killed in 3 days.... And than nerfed....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H3-N9zoI5c Amazing video of 60+ devilsaurs raiding Undercity!


    My God, what a horrible creation. People seeing what they want? Thank God they tried to shy away from that. I know it pisses me off when I'm in an heroic raid, yet in the back of my head all I can think is 'some casual player is playing a heroic dungeon and not wiping.' -Vodkarn

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    BC heroics were not hard. People were just awful at the game.
    There is nothing hard about CCing trash before a pull-- and I say that as a rogue who had to sap without Imp Sap (I.e. When you sap, stealth breaks and all the mobs get aggro'd onto you). It was not difficult, it was not challenging. It was god awful tedious. Any tank that wasn't a retard could pull aggro off of me, it just meant the group had to go through extra, annoying steps while clearing trash, making runs take several times longer than they needed to.
    "Hard" is relative. Obviously 5 mans in TBC weren't hard like heroic Lei Shen hard but they were a lot harder than dungeons have ever been since then. Basically the best example from today would be doing a challenge mode without worrying about the timer, that's more or less what TBC heroics were like. So, as you would in a challenge mode, you CCed stuff etc and took your time because if you rushed you usually wiped unless it was a far above average group.

    I mean, people complained about the difficulty of 5 mans in Cata and I remember running heroic Tol'vir in the second week of the expansion with a hunter pet tanking, something you never could have done in TBC. If that constitutes a difficult heroic today, then yeah, a heroic where you have to CC and if the CC breaks you wipe is pretty damn hard. Relatively speaking I'd say for example Kael trash was hard too, for trash, for the same reason. You had to CC and if your CC broke you wiped. Is casting polymorph hard? Well obviously not, but if you're comparing it to pull + AoE being the entire strat, it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Do you realize what a complete joke most lower tier raid encounters in TBC were?

    Even on LFR, Lei Shen, council and Durumu are more complex fights than the majority of fights before T6.
    And this just reads like someone who never did the fights, frankly. Not to mention that "complex" is pretty irrelevant, unless you really think "has a lot of stuff going on" is what makes a challenging boss. Okay sure, Lurker for instance wasn't a particularly hard boss, but it was about a thousand times harder than anything that has ever been in LFR. I mean for one, you had to have a strat, send people to specific platforms, heal multiple tanks at once through non-trivial amounts of damage and have them hold aggro etc. And there was a mechanic which one shot you if you messed up. I mean, the beam on Durumu kills half the raid every time in LFR and it always goes in the exact same spot and doesn't actually activate for about 20 seconds. Imagine if it was Lurker spout? And that, along with VR, was the easiest pre-t6 fight in the expansion. The only TBC boss I would say was anywhere near LFR difficulty and would have sat on the easier end of normal mode is Rage Winterchill, which was definitely in the "hard to actually wipe" category of boss difficulty. That was t6 though.

    Generally speaking if you're comparing the raids in TBC to heroic raiding today, today's fights are significantly more challenging mechanically while the game was more unforgiving then. Most classes can do most things these days so you can handle the problems in a variety of ways and small mistakes in movement or rotations are easily overcome, which is why the bosses have more complex mechanics to compensate. But things like tank deaths were a lot more common in that period because even though your tank healers basically spammed one button, if they ever stopped spamming it for whatever reason it was pretty much a wipe. For what it's worth I think today's design is probably better overall, and ToT heroic was definitely as hard as the game has ever been when it first came out, but that definitely doesn't mean TBC was easy. The end bosses in T5 were very hard and the others were like the easier end of heroics are today in terms of the learning curve.
    Last edited by Gondlem; 2013-08-31 at 05:19 PM.

  15. #455
    Brewmaster Ceethemage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vongimi View Post
    The biggest reasons is because it was likely when most people learned to raid correctly.
    This and I had a lot of fond memories back in TBC and a lot of things I felt proud to accomplish.

  16. #456
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaojin View Post
    Not trying to nitpick, but there was an addon that told you exactly where, when, and how to move to avoid the energy orbs of Void Reaver (thus the nickname "Loot Reaver", cause the energy orbs were the most difficult aspect of the whole fight.)

    I also used many more addons in BC than I do these days. So just a bit a perspective there.

    Also one of my favorite sites back then was Thottbot, which heavily used datamining.
    That is actually a good point. Like I said. I loved TBC - but I also found aspects to like and love in the following x-pacs. "Lootreaver" - yes...even then we skipped bosses (Hydos) and went for easy ones. And even back then bosses died fast.

    I just ask people to acknowledge that in TBC we had mechanics that could artificially slow your progress or in plain english fuck your guild up.

    Just a simple thing like key players in your guid quitting could throw you back a month or more (unless you poached other guilds) - because progress was also restricted by attunments. You couldn't just go "Oh well..so our tank left..we just do Mt Hyjal raid with anew tan" - no..that tank had to be attuned from SSC and TK.

    And I swear, people did NOT love that. Did NOT love gating. Did NOT love resistance check. Oh..so we spend now 4 weeks NOT getting past Mother S. unless we are awesome, spend the guild fortune on HoDs or wait until we farm our own res gear.

    We lost a tank and two healers on Illidan..they just quit. Well geared and inthe fire res gear for phase two. We literally had to spend a month gearing and attuning a new tank and healers in SSC and TK.

    Yes..that slowed our progression. And THAT is why people remeber TBC to be awesome? Because bad luck or RL could fuck you up so badly?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  17. #457
    All of the zones in TBC didn't have the same theme recycled, for one.

  18. #458
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vongimi View Post
    M'uru was killed in 3 days.... And than nerfed....
    Quote Originally Posted by glycerethe View Post
    Keep convincing yourself, lol
    Glycerine..thank you for that great contribution. I don't need convincing myself "lol" - I was there and the data speaks for itself.

    The second gate opened after weekly maintenance on April 29, 2008
    M'uru was killed - 4th May 2008

    5 days..so "lol"

    Quote Originally Posted by Phasma View Post
    All of the zones in TBC didn't have the same theme recycled, for one.
    Does Howling Fjord look like Icecrown? Does Sholazar have the same theme as Zul Drak? Twilight Highland equals Deepholm? Dread Wastes are Jade Forest?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  19. #459
    For me, I started WoW right at the launch of TBC. The contrast in worlds, coming from Azeroth to Outland was awesome. The design of the zones were fantastic, each one had a story to tell, its own conflict going on in the midst of the main conflict. I loved how the shattered world told its own story, the scars showed that something terrible had happened, and this is teased out over the course of the expansion. Nagrand is still my favourite zone.

    The instances for me were challenging, requiring some degree of teamwork and coordination. The HC's as well lived up to that name. I've yet to get that same sense of accomplishment I felt completing a TBC hc from any hc since. I liked having to attune to instances. It added a nice quality assurance element to it. If someone could be bothered to get attuned, chances where that they had some degree of ability.

    Raiding wise, I still think Kara is the best raid I've been in. I think it was tuned to perfection. I loved the progression, I got to BT before the lolpatch hit.

    I also think that having played WC3 and its expac, getting to find out what happens to Illidan, Kael and Vashj added an extra bonus to me, I was more engrossed in the story of TBC than I was with the other expacs, though WotLK did a good job, I just didn't care as much for MoP or Cata.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    That chick needed some spicy salmon, need to buff that hit rating.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Ceethemage View Post
    The beginning of WOTLK was awesome I actually enjoyed it but when they took a bat to it and made it feel like gear was "free for all" I lost my like for it.
    I stopped caring about gear in Vanilla. I do not care what other people have.

    Here's a lesson in aesthetics.
    Warrior Tier 1 is substantially better looking than Tier 2 or 2.5.
    Tier 4 was better than Tier 5, 6 or 6.5.
    Tier 7 and 8 were better than Tier 9 or 10.
    And so forth. I never really cared how something looked. I chose it to get the job done. If its just a means to an end, as 99.9% of gear is, what does it matter if someone else has something?

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