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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Buniboo View Post
    iLvl 552 4p (shoulder offpiece tortos', AMP+CDR trinket) is about 5%+ for me on several 100mil+ damage tests, on most good openers I got over 1mil execute crits.
    Unless 'several' are at least 1.000, better 10.000 rounds this will tell us as much as i was eating nutella instead of marmelade for breakfast - stop the press! Did you even bother with covering all raidbuffs? This can change the outcome of one choice over another dramatically. And how did you handle the Skeer trinket? Saving BB for it? Using it along CDR or amp trinket?

    Quote Originally Posted by Warriorsarri View Post
    Just my personal opinion, but I find it more useful to make an "upgrade path", where I list every item that is an upgrade, and then compare my results with what the other classes has come up with. If the lists ain't too alike, we can make a decision based on that. If they are quite alike, we can discuss our way to a solution (or let our Master Looter decide, whichever is more effective).
    Hmm, that's a tough thing. Most pieces with hit on it won't be an upgrade for anyone in your raiding team as long as they can't get rid of feather & the twohander from council but as soon as that happens it's a more than welcome stat again. A general idea of what's BiS is important imho so you don't compete with someone for a piece that is their BiS and only either a workaround, sidegrade or heck even a downgrade for you (ie: strength baseline trinket with haste procc, but that's only from the isle IIRC. Or basically just any piece with haste on it and no crit which is true for at least 9 items).

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    Hmm, that's a tough thing. Most pieces with hit on it won't be an upgrade for anyone in your raiding team as long as they can't get rid of feather & the twohander from council but as soon as that happens it's a more than welcome stat again. A general idea of what's BiS is important imho so you don't compete with someone for a piece that is their BiS and only either a workaround, sidegrade or heck even a downgrade for you (ie: strength baseline trinket with haste procc, but that's only from the isle IIRC. Or basically just any piece with haste on it and no crit which is true for at least 9 items).
    Knowing what's BiS is of course a good thing to plan upgrades, but the average 10M heroic raider is never going to attain BiS. Depending on what WF drops you get, your best attainable set can vary quite a bit.

    For example, look at the bis list in this thread. It lists the garrosh shoulders as the BiS off-piece. Now let's say the H-WF crit/mastery chest drops. Are you going to pass on it because it's not BiS ? Of course not, you're taking it, because you'll probably never see the H-WF garrosh shoulders. And when you do, you're done with progress anyway so who cares ?

    A much better idea is to sim your current set, get stat weights. Sim the BiS set, get stat weights. Use both sets of stat weights on wowhead to get a ranked item list for every slot. Use those lists to plan your gear upgrades.

  3. #23
    and Storm bolt is better than bloodbath for tg/smf
    Show me proof.

    As far as I know I went into landsoul's stream and discussed this, we agreed that due to the opportunity cost of storm bolt and the fact bloodbath can be used during execute, bloodbath is still mathematically better.

  4. #24
    tbh i dont see Evil Eye of Galakras being bis as it lowers the cd for reck etc but not skull banner and u want to line those up
    as for offpeice i would say its gonna be the crit mastery chest

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmah View Post
    [...] but the average 10M heroic raider is never going to attain BiS in heroic thunderforged[...]
    fixed?! We had one thunderforged Tortos shoulders and one DA helmet drop during progression so one of our plate dps went for one piece while the other picked up the remaining. w/o loot council & dkp there's much more common sense involved in loot distribution in 10M, so unless you raid with some greedy and ignorant loot wh*res (which you hopefully don't ) there shouldn't be a real problem with that.

    You'll just have to be somewhat flexible when it comes to uncommon drops (thunderforged/warforged). If you just sim your statweights now and in BiS gear and use that while planning for upgrades instead of BiS you'll probably end up needing on *anything* in week two and beyond while killing heroic bosses just because it's an 31-37 ilvl difference to your current items (or even way more if you were really unlucky in t15). And please don't forget that certain pieces (setboni, trinkets) can greatly shift statweights around. Ie: hit/haste become slightly more valueable with the 2 piece for fury because it can generate more rage, etc.
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-08-31 at 01:16 PM.

  6. #26
    Could someone pls link me the trinket rankings in relation to H TF Feathers (if that is still relevant)

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Furyspark View Post
    Show me proof.

    As far as I know I went into landsoul's stream and discussed this, we agreed that due to the opportunity cost of storm bolt and the fact bloodbath can be used during execute, bloodbath is still mathematically better.
    Storm bolt hits harder than execute and doesn't cost any rage. Why wouldn't you use it during execute? That part alone makes me question this comment.

    Storm bolt is only viable due to CDR allowing it to be used every colossus smash, and that every other trinket other than amplify is just awful.

  8. #28
    Why u all take Simulationcraft for this PTR ? I mean its buggy it doesnt work good at all.

    For example LOOK AT THE CLOAK ? It doesnt crit in Simulationcraft ? i mean WTF is that ?

    And Crit-Banner gets Snapshotted? thats just not true.

    DW works with Reck ? IT DOESNT!

    How can u post a DPS list out of a Programm that doesnt even get the basics right. How can that list be any good?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    Storm bolt hits harder than execute and doesn't cost any rage. Why wouldn't you use it during execute? That part alone makes me question this comment.

    Storm bolt is only viable due to CDR allowing it to be used every colossus smash, and that every other trinket other than amplify is just awful.
    Where's the math?

    I didn't mean that as in you can't use Storm Bolt during execute, I probably should've phrased better. You can use bloodbath with execute.

    How much harder is it hitting? let's say during reck, execute crits 1mil, storm bolt 1.3mil, (with CS). The 1mil execute automatically becomes 1.3mil and you can potentially hit that 4 times, meaning 1.3x4 = 5.2mil.
    Compared to 3x1mil + 1.3mil = 4.3mil.
    This doesn't even take into account the extra 6 seconds you get outside the CS, and the 30% on the CS itself.

    Midfight if we assume without the CS Storm bolt will crit for (1.3 / 1.4 = 920k).
    If we say bloodbath has twice the CD of storm bolt regardless of trinket, this means every bloodbath you need to do 6mil damage (ish) to equal the stormbolt. Doesn't sound so hard.

    But this is based off me assuming Storm Bolt crits for 1.3mil during CS.
    Now instead of "questioning my comment", show some mathematical proof instead of giving blank statements.
    While what Landsoul said was napkin math, I still value his napkin math over your not validated statements.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Furyspark View Post
    Where's the math?
    Okay but please be aware that this is only napkin mojo

    a) Don't compare a fully stacked feather once in a blue moon execute crit during banner with potion & avatar to your average stormbolt. Using BiS profiles for fury TG & SMF respectively

    TG
    amp + skeer + BB = 382.2k
    amp + CDR + BB = 381.8k
    amp + CDR + SB = 390.6k

    SMF
    amp + skeer + BB = 373.6k
    amp + CDR + BB = 373.3k
    amp + CDR + SB = 375.6k

    plus altering the line actions.single_target+=/storm_bolt,if=enabled&debuff.colossus_smash.up to make sure i'd get the most out of it.

    So what do we get?

    SMF: your average stormbolt hits 3.49 times harder, 1.362k vs 393k.
    TG: your average stormbolt hits 4.86 times harder, 1.639k vs 337k.

    Opportunity cost? Yes, there's some attached. But what's about the saved rage? You'll also get a free 30 rage heroic strike in exchange/addition to your storm bolt if you could fit four full executes during each colossus smash, +222k for SMF and +147k for TG.

    So you'd need to get more than (1.362+222)*2=3.168.000 damage out of every bloodbath (you get two stormbolts versus one bloodbath with the CDR trinket) to beat it for SMF and (1639+147)*2=3.572.000 damage for TG. During 12 seconds & from 30% additional damage? That's roughly 11 million damage before blood bath and we compared it to our hardest hitting abilities (execute) when we're only using that 1/5 of the time (slightly less in practice).

    BUT and yes there's almost always a but ... as soon as there's more than one target you might end up wanting to spend some rage on aoe abilities and bloodbath can support those when stormbolt can not.

    Some things to note:
    a) if you go for the PTR and want to check out the actual numbers please make sure to hit the boss training dummy for storm bolt, the smaller ones in execute range are stuneable (thus eating noticeable less damage) - which is also another downside for storm bolt, if your current target is stunable (which is true for some adds in SoO) your glorified storm bolt burst is neutered
    b) if you use simc and wonder about the huge damage discrepancy to my posted numbers: you'll need to add the stormbolt offhand damage manually since it only refers to the mainhand attack on the damage per execute table (RB has the similar problem for ages)
    c) execute scales with attackpower while storm bolt scales with weapon damage, unless you're already an owner of a heroic warforged weapon take all PTR tests with a grain of salt. But even fielding two pvp weapons should already give you a good idea of what's possible with storm bolt
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-08-31 at 05:23 PM.

  11. #31
    Again why u guys use Simulationcraft? U cant use the numbers that are in Simulationcraft because its just broken ATM !

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    Okay but please be aware that this is only napkin mojo
    This is all I was after though
    While I still think Bloodbath will be used over SB, I just wanted some numbers to play with since I'm not doing much on the PTR.

    Though the reason I'm not doing much on the PTR is because I don't believe we've seen our final number pass, so right now there's no point saying X > Y because it might not be in 2 days time.

    And to be fair, I don't trust simcraft one bit for my warrior, it's not nearly complex enough and most of the time it's just not correct according to my sources.
    I just hate blank statements with no proof other than simcraft.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by d00f View Post
    Again why u guys use Simulationcraft? U cant use the numbers that are in Simulationcraft because its just broken ATM !
    Yeah because both chars using the same cloak that can't crit at the moment will totally screw the results Actually all of your listed problems with the current simc version are by no mean "basics" and only relevant when you compare warrior to other classes, not looking at the impact of different talent choices or gearing. Yes, my posted numbers might not be accurate when it comes to 5.4 on the 10th of september - but they show a general direction and being clearly labeled as napkin math should do that for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furyspark View Post
    Though the reason I'm not doing much on the PTR is because I don't believe we've seen our final number pass, so right now there's no point saying X > Y because it might not be in 2 days time.
    What would you expect to see in the next 10 days? With the changes to RPPM and it's interactions with haste we came back from the dead thanks to the 2p we're looking in a strong tier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furyspark View Post
    And to be fair, I don't trust simcraft one bit for my warrior, it's not nearly complex enough and most of the time it's just not correct according to my sources. I just hate blank statements with no proof other than simcraft.
    Hmm, i dislike comments like the one a few posts above from a guy standing on a dummy for some hours and revolutionizing the warrior world based on 5ish "large" dps tests. I get fairly accurate results for my warrior, more so for arms due to it's static nature (and my lack of time/opportunity to play fury on a high level) but fury numbers seems pretty solid to me.

    The problem with simcraft is not simcraft, it's the handling of the output. As well all know there's basically no real patchwerk fight left where you could apply the standard simC settings and you're ready to go, ie i regulary beat my highest simmed patchwerk numbers on Ra-Den due to sitting in berserker stance below 40% and swimming in rage. But if you take the time and get into the details it's a fairly mighty and accurate tool, doing exactly what you want it to do. If you don't get the perimeters straight you can't expect it to tell you all the answers ("42!").

    And due to the gear restrictions & limitations it's fairly hard to get most relevant answers w/o simcraft assumptions when content is still relevant ('progression') when only 10 or 20 warrior on the world would have the gear let alone the mood/time/dedication to really test things out. Several months in that's just as interesting as an updated Landsoul spreadsheet, it's good for the final touch but mostly irrelevant.
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-08-31 at 06:08 PM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by d00f View Post
    Why u all take Simulationcraft for this PTR ? I mean its buggy it doesnt work good at all.

    For example LOOK AT THE CLOAK ? It doesnt crit in Simulationcraft ? i mean WTF is that ?

    And Crit-Banner gets Snapshotted? thats just not true.

    DW works with Reck ? IT DOESNT!

    How can u post a DPS list out of a Programm that doesnt even get the basics right. How can that list be any good?
    Even if all of your comments are true, the difference that would make for warriors is very small.

    If you can prove that, why not fix it? Those are all very easy coding fixes. After I get home I'll verify and fix them in less than 5 minutes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Furyspark View Post
    This is all I was after though
    While I still think Bloodbath will be used over SB, I just wanted some numbers to play with since I'm not doing much on the PTR.

    Though the reason I'm not doing much on the PTR is because I don't believe we've seen our final number pass, so right now there's no point saying X > Y because it might not be in 2 days time.

    And to be fair, I don't trust simcraft one bit for my warrior, it's not nearly complex enough and most of the time it's just not correct according to my sources.
    I just hate blank statements with no proof other than simcraft.
    I hate blanket statements with no proof other than "I spoke with landsoul."

    What's not correct? If you're going to make me post math, the least you can do is tell me what's broken so I can verify and fix it so it is a better tool.

  15. #35
    Collision ofc that is important for a warrior. The scalings will be different for Crit and STr.
    Maybe even the BIS list will be different then, and u guys all talk about WRONG data.

    these bugs where just the Start, if i would look for more i would find more.

    I tested everything i posted there on PTR i can show u that iam right if u want to.


    If even these "easy" things as u sayed are wrong, what else is wrong in Simulationcraft ? No one can tell.

    I remember Simcraft not even Using shout prefight so warrior didnt start with any rage did that get fixed ?

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    What would you expect to see in the next 10 days? With the changes to RPPM and it's interactions with haste we came back from the dead thanks to the 2p we're looking in a strong tier.
    We could see anything, I expect a decent sized number pass addressing each spec soon enough, if not then 1 week into the tier.
    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    What's not correct? If you're going to make me post math, the least you can do is tell me what's broken so I can verify and fix it so it is a better tool.
    It's fairly obvious that I want to see the math that makes you believe Storm Bolt is superior, where are the superior numbers other than simcraft results.
    My blank statement was a counter to your blank statement encouraging you to show the math and prove me wrong, I then atleast put some "fake" (or theoretical) math forward (due to not knowing the storm bolt damage).

    As to the blankness of my statement, it's words that I've heard from Landsoul himself saying Bloodbath is "probably better" whether you want to believe it or not, I've heard it so I'll stick to it.

    I feel like I sound hostile but I'm trying not to .

  17. #37
    Hey guys. quick question :
    can u point what trinket is going to be better when 5.4 hits with all the changes for the RPPM ... ?
    (i mean 5.2 trinkets mainly - HTF primordius , H primordius , HTF gaze , H gaze )

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by d00f View Post
    these bugs where just the Start, if i would look for more i would find more.
    Please go ahead!
    +
    Quote Originally Posted by d00f View Post
    I tested everything i posted there on PTR i can show u that iam right if u want to.
    You might got his answer wrong, he really want to see the problems you've found and fix them. He wants to make simcraft the best it can be and is grateful for all the help he can get. Every real bugreport is taken seriously.

    Ie there's already a fix for skullbanner which should be avaible in the 530-8 release: https://code.google.com/p/simulation...detail?r=17427 - maybe that's what you found as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furyspark View Post
    We could see anything, I expect a decent sized number pass addressing each spec soon enough, if not then 1 week into the tier.
    *scratches head* That's exactly what Blizzard did for the last few weeks. Don't forget that most slightly weaker single target speccs excel at multitargets in exchange (ie: elemental shaman, locks, hunter).

    Quote Originally Posted by Furyspark View Post
    It's fairly obvious that I want to see the math that makes you believe Storm Bolt is superior, where are the superior numbers other than simcraft results.
    This almost sounds like there's a small goblin behind Simcraft or AskMrRobot using a magic eight ball and throwing out random answers. Dude, it's just a calculator using custom made math modules.

    So if we use simcraft for our math it's just as good as getting back to the chalkboard and writing every single equation down - but is this really necessary in 2013 when we already did the math hundreds of times for over eight years? You can look them up and prove simcraft and all of us wrong if you're really that suspicious

    Landsoul probably had the real SoO fights in mind when he talked about it on his stream, not math A vs math B. Bloodbath contributes against multiple targets at once as pointed out...
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-08-31 at 06:37 PM.

  19. #39
    well u need acces to all simcraft data then if u need to fix everything.

    What did i get wrong ? I mean DW doesnt go with REck on PTR i tested it 100 times.

    Btw in a 450 secounds fight lenght simulation there are 138Ticks of DW hows that? 450/3 = 150 ticks. if the first starts after 3secs its 149 if iam right ?

    and yeah i told warriorsarri about that skullbanner thing, most of ppl think that it gets snapshotted.
    But that was a HUGE BUG, every sim in 5.3 was wrong there, most of all the Warlock simulations.
    I mean think about a crit doom or something like that with 20% more damage for 2 minutes?
    Last edited by d00f; 2013-08-31 at 06:58 PM.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furyspark View Post
    We could see anything, I expect a decent sized number pass addressing each spec soon enough, if not then 1 week into the tier.

    It's fairly obvious that I want to see the math that makes you believe Storm Bolt is superior, where are the superior numbers other than simcraft results.
    My blank statement was a counter to your blank statement encouraging you to show the math and prove me wrong, I then atleast put some "fake" (or theoretical) math forward (due to not knowing the storm bolt damage).

    As to the blankness of my statement, it's words that I've heard from Landsoul himself saying Bloodbath is "probably better" whether you want to believe it or not, I've heard it so I'll stick to it.

    I feel like I sound hostile but I'm trying not to .
    Landsoul has not been in the game as of late, and used "probably." Math is showing SB is better single target. If you want to take landsoul's guess about a future iteration, then be my guest.

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