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  1. #161
    Pit Lord Archimtiros's Avatar
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    The CDR and Amp are top for every class (every str class atleast).

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Anduryondon View Post
    It would also mean every other strength dps class had to pass on the trinket, because giving it to your warrior means increasing the dps of everyone in the raid.
    Could you reword this? You seem to imply this is bad, but I don't see the fault in it.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Jalopy View Post
    Could you reword this? You seem to imply this is bad, but I don't see the fault in it.
    I don't think it is right to design items that when given to the proper class increase the dps from everyone in the raid. It also makes the item scale over the top, because it's strength increases even when other classes in your raid get upgrades. It's a dangerous design and personally I think it was the right call not to go this way.

  4. #164
    Herald of the Titans Syridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furyspark View Post
    Have to agree with sarri here, a BiS list is next to pointless seeing as chances are even if you clear from day 1 you won't have a BiS set of gear.

    Plus this is the last tier, after progress who really minds whether they have BiS or not? I personally don't care if levelling next xpac takes 5 seconds longer.

    inb4 someone mentions ranks /lol.
    Plenty of people I've raided with care about having BiS during the last patch. Also, knowing when an item falls into your BiS, also tells you it's value relative to other pieces. Say for example there are several str trinkets (more than 2) and it's unclear which 2 are best for you. Knowing ahead of time if the drop was your best in slot, and only subpar for your other STR dps can help optimise your raid group.
    e.g. (Ah, that trink is BiS for our ret paladin, but not so great for me, despite being a small upgrade. We had best let him take it this time as he won't be replacing it, whereas I would.)

  5. #165
    The Lightbringer turskanaattori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d00f View Post
    @Colusion.

    With simcraft PTR

    1 Target =335.000 DPS
    2 Target =617.000 DPS
    U think that Simulation is right ?

    and BTW scale factors : (really unrealistic haste scaling doubles with 1 enemy more ?!?!?)
    1 target


    2targets
    Haste scaling makes sense because you can only (realistically) have CS up on 1 target, which is where mastery is useful with the 2piece. Also not sure if SS transfers mastery procs at all?

    Edit: also, due to the above, haste = more rage to keep SS up.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by d00f View Post
    i dont know what u talking ? Haste helps u get CS up on 1 Target but not on 2 ?

    So why sould the scaling double with 2 targets? U think u can manage to get cs up on 2 Targets or what?

    and more rage = keep ss up ? U can keep ss up with 0 Haste.

    And with CS Mastery gives u some rage 2 with 2 piece

    And why doesnt STR or Crit rating getting doubled ? its just the "Crap" stat HASTE?

    But WTF why sould 1 more Target nearly double ur DPS ?
    You keep posting a lot of question to undermine the simcraft results. Why don't you bring something to the discussion instead? Why would your DPS be doubled for having another target, did you stop to think about this for just 2 seconds?. Sweeping strikes mirrors 75% of your damage, and slam does 35% of its damage as cleave. The rage cost you use on keeping sweeping strikes up is minimal.

    You have posted several time over the last week or two, we get it you don't like simcraft and you don't trust it. But please try to contribute to the discussion instead of posting pointless questions which anyone with minimal knowledge of the warrior class can answer. If you are actually interessted in knowing why the value of haste increases with more targets, try to reword your post.
    Last edited by Oliria; 2013-09-07 at 03:12 PM.

  7. #167
    just a timewaste. U dont get my questions and ur answering the unimportant stuff

    in 5.4 we can see what happens

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by d00f View Post
    just a timewaste. U dont get my questions and ur answering the unimportant stuff

    in 5.4 we can see what happens
    Yes, we will see.

  9. #169
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    Ok--Collision did the sims on all the trinkets. I took the sim data and put them in order for single target (which BiS means TG/SMF for single target.) The arms list is basically the same except skeers jumpts to top. I added a numerical value which indicates the +/- dps from H-TF Feather, which is currently the gold standard. This way, when loot council asks you how much dps is it for you, you can tell them.

    So, using Collision''s Sims (assuming TG/SMF are the same), for single target at least. The numbers on the right indicate the increase/decrease in DPS from heroic feather (for progression purposes)--
    1. Evil Eye H-TF 14753
    2. Thoks Tail H-TF 14376
    3. Evil Eye H 12800
    4. Thok's Tail H 12422
    5. Evil Eye N-TF 10704
    6. Thok's Tail N-TF 10177
    7. Thok's Tail N 8930
    8. Evil Eye N 8766
    9. Skeer's H-TF 5247
    10. Skeer's H 3974
    11. Skeer's N-TF 2320
    12. Skeer's N 1602
    13. Primo Talisman H-TF 1483
    14. Fabled Feather H-TF 0
    15. Gaze of Twins H-TF -190
    16. Fusion Core H-TF -5734
    17. Fusion Core H -6502
    18. Fusion Core N-TF -7074
    19. Fusion Core N -9490

    For sustained cleave, we should be arms anyways, so
    Two:
    Galakras + Thok + Bladestorm + Bloodbath

    Three+ targets:
    Galakras + FusionFire + Bladestorm + Bloodbath

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by d00f View Post
    just a timewaste. U dont get my questions and ur answering the unimportant stuff

    in 5.4 we can see what happens
    If played perfectly, 1 more target does nearly double Arms damage. Sweeping strikes duplicates every attack by 0.75 and there are some double-dipping mechanics with sweeping strikes and opportunity strike proccing off each other (verifiable on ptr), as well as slam cleave hitting the 2nd target for 35% of the damage. I've gotten close to doubling my damage on training dummies while testing this.

    The "Gap" between arms and fury on 3+ targets shrinks a lot because most of the cleave advantage is gained on 2 targets.

  11. #171
    U all explain me why it can double the damage. but my main question was why haste scaling is doubled.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    If played perfectly, 1 more target does nearly double Arms damage. Sweeping strikes duplicates every attack by 0.75 and there are some double-dipping mechanics with sweeping strikes and opportunity strike proccing off each other (verifiable on ptr), as well as slam cleave hitting the 2nd target for 35% of the damage. I've gotten close to doubling my damage on training dummies while testing this.

    The "Gap" between arms and fury on 3+ targets shrinks a lot because most of the cleave advantage is gained on 2 targets.
    the targets needs to be very close in order the slam to do the +35%..
    how can i track it ? how can i know if they are close enough during combat?

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo33 View Post
    the targets needs to be very close in order the slam to do the +35%..
    how can i track it ? how can i know if they are close enough during combat?
    It's 2 yds, so if they are on top of each other it's close enough, other case it's not.

  14. #174
    So why sould the scaling double with 2 targets? U think u can manage to get cs up on 2 Targets or what?
    Remember that haste from gear has an internal 1.5* modifier for warriors. 283~ rating gives 1% haste.


    With 10% haste:
    Attack speed = 3.6 / ( 10 / 100 ) + 1 )

    3.6 / 1.1 = 3.2727 seconds per swing

    Add 1% haste

    3.6 / 1.11 = 3.2432 seconds per swing

    That's a reduction of 0.0295 seconds per swing.

    Our average melee swing is 60k every 3.2727 seconds. 60 / 3.2727 = 18.3334k dps

    60k / 3.2342 = 18.551k dps, or a 217.6 dps increase.

    217.6/283 = 0.768 dps per point from the weapon swing alone.

    However, we also get extra rage. 12.5 per swing.

    12.5 / 3.2727 = 3.8194 rage per second
    12.5 / 3.2342 = 3.864 rage per second
    That's a 0.0446 rage per second increase.

    0.0446 * 10k (damage per rage average for slam, since extra rage is likely pushed into this.) = 446 dps

    446 / 283 = 1.575 dps per point from the rage, which when added to the above number leads to a dps value of 2.34. It's far too hard to show how haste affects opportunity strikes or colossus smash resets, but it's easy to see those affects adding enough to push haste's value another 0.34 dps per point to the 2.68 you see there.

    Sweeping Strikes makes every attack do 1.75x damage. So the rage gained from haste is now used on a slam that deals 17.5k DPR + 3.5k from the slam cleave, and it is now a 21k DPR ability.

    Plugging in 21k DPR into the same formula....

    0.0446 * 21k = 936 dps
    936 / 283 = 3.3 dps per point.

    We also get 1.75* damage from the partial extra attack, so that becomes...
    0.768 * 1.75 = 1.344 dps per point

    What I have calculated haste's value to be on 2 targets: 4.644 dps per point of haste
    (NOT accounting for weird oddities like OS/SS proccing off each other, or CS resets.)

    What the sim said: 5.48

    That's only 0.836 dps per point that I have not accounted for, and just like before, the other factors that haste buffs could easily explain that delta.

    So yes, the simulation is completely right.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    Remember that haste from gear has an internal 1.5* modifier for warriors. 283~ rating gives 1% haste.


    With 10% haste:
    Attack speed = 3.6 / ( 10 / 100 ) + 1 )

    3.6 / 1.1 = 3.2727 seconds per swing

    Add 1% haste

    3.6 / 1.11 = 3.2432 seconds per swing

    That's a reduction of 0.0295 seconds per swing.

    Our average melee swing is 60k every 3.2727 seconds. 60 / 3.2727 = 18.3334k dps

    60k / 3.2342 = 18.551k dps, or a 217.6 dps increase.

    217.6/283 = 0.768 dps per point from the weapon swing alone.

    However, we also get extra rage. 12.5 per swing.

    12.5 / 3.2727 = 3.8194 rage per second
    12.5 / 3.2342 = 3.864 rage per second
    That's a 0.0446 rage per second increase.

    0.0446 * 10k (damage per rage average for slam, since extra rage is likely pushed into this.) = 446 dps

    446 / 283 = 1.575 dps per point from the rage, which when added to the above number leads to a dps value of 2.34. It's far too hard to show how haste affects opportunity strikes or colossus smash resets, but it's easy to see those affects adding enough to push haste's value another 0.34 dps per point to the 2.68 you see there.

    Sweeping Strikes makes every attack do 1.75x damage. So the rage gained from haste is now used on a slam that deals 17.5k DPR + 3.5k from the slam cleave, and it is now a 21k DPR ability.

    Plugging in 21k DPR into the same formula....

    0.0446 * 21k = 936 dps
    936 / 283 = 3.3 dps per point.

    We also get 1.75* damage from the partial extra attack, so that becomes...
    0.768 * 1.75 = 1.344 dps per point

    What I have calculated haste's value to be on 2 targets: 4.644 dps per point of haste
    (NOT accounting for weird oddities like OS/SS proccing off each other, or CS resets.)

    What the sim said: 5.48

    That's only 0.836 dps per point that I have not accounted for, and just like before, the other factors that haste buffs could easily explain that delta.

    So yes, the simulation is completely right.
    Is it weird that I just got a math boner?

  16. #176
    The Lightbringer turskanaattori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boneyards View Post
    Is it weird that I just got a math boner?
    No, I get it every time he posts this stuff.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Boneyards View Post
    Is it weird that I just got a math boner?
    Nop. I feel it too..

  18. #178
    Brewmaster Jess Day's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    Remember that haste from gear has an internal 1.5* modifier for warriors. 283~ rating gives 1% haste.


    With 10% haste:
    Attack speed = 3.6 / ( 10 / 100 ) + 1 )

    3.6 / 1.1 = 3.2727 seconds per swing

    Add 1% haste

    3.6 / 1.11 = 3.2432 seconds per swing

    That's a reduction of 0.0295 seconds per swing.

    Our average melee swing is 60k every 3.2727 seconds. 60 / 3.2727 = 18.3334k dps

    60k / 3.2342 = 18.551k dps, or a 217.6 dps increase.

    217.6/283 = 0.768 dps per point from the weapon swing alone.

    However, we also get extra rage. 12.5 per swing.

    12.5 / 3.2727 = 3.8194 rage per second
    12.5 / 3.2342 = 3.864 rage per second
    That's a 0.0446 rage per second increase.

    0.0446 * 10k (damage per rage average for slam, since extra rage is likely pushed into this.) = 446 dps

    446 / 283 = 1.575 dps per point from the rage, which when added to the above number leads to a dps value of 2.34. It's far too hard to show how haste affects opportunity strikes or colossus smash resets, but it's easy to see those affects adding enough to push haste's value another 0.34 dps per point to the 2.68 you see there.

    Sweeping Strikes makes every attack do 1.75x damage. So the rage gained from haste is now used on a slam that deals 17.5k DPR + 3.5k from the slam cleave, and it is now a 21k DPR ability.

    Plugging in 21k DPR into the same formula....

    0.0446 * 21k = 936 dps
    936 / 283 = 3.3 dps per point.

    We also get 1.75* damage from the partial extra attack, so that becomes...
    0.768 * 1.75 = 1.344 dps per point

    What I have calculated haste's value to be on 2 targets: 4.644 dps per point of haste
    (NOT accounting for weird oddities like OS/SS proccing off each other, or CS resets.)

    What the sim said: 5.48

    That's only 0.836 dps per point that I have not accounted for, and just like before, the other factors that haste buffs could easily explain that delta.

    So yes, the simulation is completely right.
    Someone hand me a tissue, quickly.

  19. #179
    @Colusion:

    this explains why haste value doubles. But why does haste Scale better with 1 more Target then Crit or STR?

    All that u wrote is for crit 2 ? And crit scales with DW and BS too ?
    And it gives u more Enrage uptime (10%damage).

    same for SS. SS "doubles" the crit damage to.

    i was wondering why ur weakest Stat actually scales the highes with 1 more target. that didnt make sense for me.
    Its not about that haste souldnt double. but if haste doubles my thought was crit should double 2!

    Maybe i got brainlaggs on this one idk.
    Last edited by d00f; 2013-09-08 at 12:01 PM.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by d00f View Post
    @Colusion:

    this explains why haste value doubles. But why does haste Scale better with 1 more Target then Crit or STR?

    All that u wrote is for crit 2 ? And crit scales with DW and BS too ?
    And it gives u more Enrage uptime (10%damage).

    same for SS. SS "doubles" the crit damage 2.

    maybe i got massive brainlagg idk.
    Having a hard time reading/writing Collision? lol

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