1. #1

    Bring back hemo (slow weapon) sub

    We see dual wield and 2h being fully supported for monks, warriors and dks (and even the recent festerblight alternative play fiasco). Why not invest a little time in the alternative play style of subtlety and give full support to hemo sub? I think they should either make it viable or remove the ability to equip anything but daggers for sub.

  2. #2
    Because they're "happy" with rogues being stale.

  3. #3
    It's worth noting that Blizzard employees spend less time reading these forums than their own, so if you want to effect change, you're better off posting on the original forums. If you just want to explore the idea, or rant about your frustrations with the state of hemo-sub currently - that definitely has a place here. We just don't have a direct line to Blizzard interns/CMs who read and read and read =)

    I don't see the reason to remove the ability to use the weapon at all, unless you're suggesting that it confuses people. Lots of things that aren't ideal exist, if you want to do them. I mean, it's not the top damage by any imagination, but you can run around with a 2.6 MH if you really want to. You just won't keep up with what you would do otherwise - the priority is yours.

  4. #4
    I'd like them to also have it so you don't have to use daggers as mut or sub, but that will never happen either...and no, combat isn't always a choice since many people don't want to willingly set themselves up for carpal tunnel down the road.

  5. #5
    Yep, not that I play my Rogue anymore, but I have fond memories of the old "Hemo" spec...

  6. #6
    Field Marshal Relentless28's Avatar
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    Meh wouldn't really care if they do because sub is my least favorite rogue spec.

  7. #7
    Hemo was my favorite spec in Cata and I'd like to see it once more time. :-)

  8. #8
    How bad is hemo on the ptr with slow weapons? At least they made it so you can ambush without a dagger.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    We see dual wield and 2h being fully supported for monks, warriors and dks.
    On a small side note here, since vanilla I always sorta wanted to play dual fist weapons on my old gnome rogue, so seeing that monks totally can do that, I spent some time getting rank8 in brawlers arena and a ton o JPs and bought 2x of the brawler heirloom claws for a gnome monk alt.
    Epic fail right there.. only time I see them on the char is if I press Z outside of combat... hehe.

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shenjin View Post
    On a small side note here, since vanilla I always sorta wanted to play dual fist weapons on my old gnome rogue, so seeing that monks totally can do that, I spent some time getting rank8 in brawlers arena and a ton o JPs and bought 2x of the brawler heirloom claws for a gnome monk alt.
    Epic fail right there.. only time I see them on the char is if I press Z outside of combat... hehe.
    Indeed. At least most weapons can look shiny from monk's backs.

    Let me see.. Hand of the Dark Animus has 7684-14272 weapon damage, Meg's Poison Fang has 5320-9881 weapon damage. Hemo with Hand would do an average of 20858 damage per hit, Hemo with Fang would do an average of 19229 damage per hit. Backstab with Fang would do an average of 20901 damage per hit. Ambush with Fang would do an average of 35743 per hit. Ambush with Hand would do an average of 35678 per hit.

    These calculations only use the weapon damage modifier on the spells, presumes that the hemo dot rolls so that it'll always do 50% of the strikes damage (Does it? If not, hemo damage is off significantly), and does not take into account attack power modifications.

    Looking at this, one would loose a VERY small amount of dps from the strikes themselves. Most of the dps loss would be from poison procs- if they swapped to a PPM poison proc mechanic, instead of %proc, this would help to solve the issue for weapons for all specs. (You could do use a dagger off-hand to help offset the poison damage a bit).

    I would estimate its around the range of a 5% dps loss to use non-daggers as Hemo sub. Of course, my calcs can easily be significantly off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  11. #11
    I see what you are going for, but it doesn't work that way because you can't just ignore the 275% backstab multiplier on your attack power dps like it is trivial.
    Backstab with fang with my ap (granted im logged out as combat) should be 2.75 x (4222.3 x 1.8 + 4234.1 x 1.7) + 375 for ~41069 damage
    Hemo with Hand should be 1.4 x (4222.3 x 2.6 + 4234.1 x 2.4) for ~29599
    Hemo with fang should be 2.03 x (4222.3 x 1.8 + 4234.1 x 1.7) for ~30040

    I'm ignoring the hemo dot because this is about feasibility of using it exclusively. BS is considerably more damage per cast.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2013-09-01 at 06:31 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    These calculations only use the weapon damage modifier on the spells, presumes that the hemo dot rolls so that it'll always do 50% of the strikes damage (Does it? If not, hemo damage is off significantly), and does not take into account attack power modifications.
    Hemo's dot is rewritten by every Hemo use - not stacking. It'll tick as expected (using Hemo doesn't restart the timer to tick because it functions like refreshing other dots), but you won't get a better dot by using Hemo 4 times rather than once.

    As a result, Hemo's best used for the dot in normal play - and for Hemo vs. BS comparison, Sessh can show you how it doesn't line up above. It's a significant loss.

  13. #13
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Hemo's dot is rewritten by every Hemo use - not stacking. It'll tick as expected (using Hemo doesn't restart the timer to tick because it functions like refreshing other dots), but you won't get a better dot by using Hemo 4 times rather than once.

    As a result, Hemo's best used for the dot in normal play - and for Hemo vs. BS comparison, Sessh can show you how it doesn't line up above. It's a significant loss.
    I see. The dot not rolling does lead for a huge dps loss. If it did, hemo vs backstab would be significantly closer, akin to how mangle vs shred for ferals is atm with SotF.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    It's worth noting that Blizzard employees spend less time reading these forums than their own, so if you want to effect change, you're better off posting on the original forums. If you just want to explore the idea, or rant about your frustrations with the state of hemo-sub currently - that definitely has a place here. We just don't have a direct line to Blizzard interns/CMs who read and read and read =)

    I don't see the reason to remove the ability to use the weapon at all, unless you're suggesting that it confuses people. Lots of things that aren't ideal exist, if you want to do them. I mean, it's not the top damage by any imagination, but you can run around with a 2.6 MH if you really want to. You just won't keep up with what you would do otherwise - the priority is yours.
    To be clear I wanted actual discussion rather than what goes on in the cesspool of the official forums. As for what I said about removing the ability, I was exaggerating somewhat. Why allow sub rogues to use slow weapons if it is just going to be a terrible and neglected playstyle?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    Because they're "happy" with rogues being stale.
    This constant statement alone makes me hate GC even though he seems like a nice guy overall. I hope there IS a Rogue dev team and I hope they can show him why big rogue changes are necessary. I worry cause it's so close to Blizzcon where they will announce the changes for 6.0. and if he still thinks rogues are fine, what changes can we expect?

    I also fully support OPs suggestion. I like swords

  16. #16
    I would like to see that happen too, you're not the only one

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Crovyn View Post
    This constant statement alone makes me hate GC even though he seems like a nice guy overall. I hope there IS a Rogue dev team and I hope they can show him why big rogue changes are necessary. I worry cause it's so close to Blizzcon where they will announce the changes for 6.0. and if he still thinks rogues are fine, what changes can we expect?

    I also fully support OPs suggestion. I like swords
    I think people honestly get confused when GC says Blizzard is happy with a class. When he's saying that they're happy with a class, it means they feel like the class is able to perform its role well. When put that way, Rogues have been one of the stronger classes in PvE so far during MoP.

    Staleness, however, is a valid complaint imo. Luckily, from tweets over the last few months, this will be addressed in 6.0 without having to gut the entire entire class and rebuild it like they did for Warlocks. The Rogue toolkit at its core still works. It just needs to be polished up a bit which honestly hasn't really happened since arguably WotLK.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilate View Post
    I think people honestly get confused when GC says Blizzard is happy with a class. When he's saying that they're happy with a class, it means they feel like the class is able to perform its role well. When put that way, Rogues have been one of the stronger classes in PvE so far during MoP.

    Staleness, however, is a valid complaint imo. Luckily, from tweets over the last few months, this will be addressed in 6.0 without having to gut the entire entire class and rebuild it like they did for Warlocks. The Rogue toolkit at its core still works. It just needs to be polished up a bit which honestly hasn't really happened since arguably WotLK.
    That would be fine if Blizzard would acknowledge that and change the aspects of the class that are broken (and now patched with duct tape and spit) or address the stale-ness of the class, rather than saying "We're happy with rogues" every single expansion that hits, despite tanking Rogue numbers and asking for them to change things.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    That would be fine if Blizzard would acknowledge that and change the aspects of the class that are broken (and now patched with duct tape and spit) or address the stale-ness of the class, rather than saying "We're happy with rogues" every single expansion that hits, despite tanking Rogue numbers and asking for them to change things.
    I think they're just hesistant to release too much info regarding changes in future expansions due to them wanting to avoid potentially letting people down. However, I am more optimistic about this Blizzcon in comparison to the last.

  20. #20
    Why does future expansions matter? People have been telling Blizzard that rogues are stale and all three specs are the same since mid WoTLK, if not earlier.

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