Thread: Tinker Class

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  1. #661
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I think what GC was referring to is things like Mechs failing, or you use a device and get launched 50 feet into the air, or exploding sheep. Things like that. He is correct that there's a great deal of risk for such a class to be too wacky and crazy. The good news is that technology can also be extremely serious and even dark.

    I think the Monk is the last (and only) light-hearted class you're going to see. I think Blizzard wants to make the next class as serious as the other classes, which it could totally do with a tech class.
    Except myself, and I reckon a lot of others, will view technological class as extremely light-hearted almost regardless of how it's implemented. Shotting rockets and spawning small mechanical minions? I can't imagine a scenario where a small guy (goblin/gnome) with a mechanical backpack is "serious and dark".

  2. #662
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadlack View Post
    Except myself, and I reckon a lot of others, will view technological class as extremely light-hearted almost regardless of how it's implemented. Shotting rockets and spawning small mechanical minions? I can't imagine a scenario where a small guy (goblin/gnome) with a mechanical backpack is "serious and dark".
    Part of the problem is that Goblins and Gnomes make everything light-hearted. I even don't view Gnome or Goblin Dark Knights as serious. The high-pitched gnome voices are especially ridiculous with the undead undertone.

    However, when you apply it to other races, it automatically takes a more serious tone. Here's an example of a Human with a robotic arm system on his back;



    Much more serious, and less light-hearted than the gnome and goblin examples.

  3. #663
    I want to make it completely clear, that literally nothing can be taken from what gc said about tinkers. It was nothing more than a question dodge. Too whimsical might mean theyre not thinking about it right now, and it needs to be more serious to have a place in wow. Nothing more.

    It doesn't mean gc thinks the class has a place.
    It doesn't mean tinkers do or don't have overlap with engineering.
    It doesnt mean there's a strong possibility of tinkers entering the game.
    It doesn't mean a more serious tech class is entering the game.

    For the sake of average human intelligence, don't believe what mason (teriz) is telling people. I think he's just trying to become the most hated person on these forums.

  4. #664
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riarden View Post
    I want to make it completely clear, that literally nothing can be taken from what gc said about tinkers. It was nothing more than a question dodge. Too whimsical might mean theyre not thinking about it right now, and it needs to be more serious to have a place in wow. Nothing more.

    It doesn't mean gc thinks the class has a place.
    It doesn't mean tinkers do or don't have overlap with engineering.
    It doesnt mean there's a strong possibility of tinkers entering the game.
    It doesn't mean a more serious tech class is entering the game.

    Greg Street @Ghostcrawler 1h

    @Jimmymusicbox Not sure. Might be a little too whimsical for WoW. Would depend on the treatment.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 1h

    @NathanielCraver I've said before it depends on the treatment. Too easy for that class to be too wacky or precious.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 1h

    @NathanielCraver A more steampunk vibe sounds cool to me. A dude in a mech having misfires that poop out springs and gears less so.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 1h

    @NathanielCraver I don't know. Lucca from Chrono Trigger could work. A little bit of gnomish (tee hee) world enlarger goes a long way IMO.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 1h

    @NathanielCraver But maybe one of the designers will come up with a pitch perfect design that blows us away someday. Shrug.

    So you honestly believe nothing can be gleaned from these tweets, or that the entire thing was a question dodge?
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-09-08 at 02:25 PM.

  5. #665
    Scarab Lord MCMLXXXII's Avatar
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    What I read is:

    He's in doubt, might be too goofy.

    A class like that could easily get too comical.

    A mech warrior type of class sounds nice. As long as it's not a gimmick.(Goblin and Gnome mech warriors)

    A bit of comedy is okay.

    Maybe one day one of the designers presents a nice design.

    What you read:

    OMG!!!!!ONE!!!!!ELEVEN!!!
    Tinker(and Half Life 3) confirmed.

  6. #666
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Greg Street @Ghostcrawler 1h

    @Jimmymusicbox Not sure. Might be a little too whimsical for WoW. Would depend on the treatment.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 1h

    @NathanielCraver I've said before it depends on the treatment. Too easy for that class to be too wacky or precious.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 1h

    @NathanielCraver A more steampunk vibe sounds cool to me. A dude in a mech having misfires that poop out springs and gears less so.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 1h

    @NathanielCraver I don't know. Lucca from Chrono Trigger could work. A little bit of gnomish (tee hee) world enlarger goes a long way IMO.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 1h

    @NathanielCraver But maybe one of the designers will come up with a pitch perfect design that blows us away someday. Shrug.

    So you honestly believe nothing can be gleaned from these tweets, or that the entire thing was a question dodge?
    I don't believe, I know nothing can be taken from these tweets. He just wants the tinker fanboys to leave him alone.

  7. #667
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    OMG!!!!!ONE!!!!!ELEVEN!!!
    Tinker(and Half Life 3) confirmed.
    Nah, it just reinforces the rest of my arguments in favor of Tinker inclusion.

  8. #668
    Teriz all this really is is some lunatic trying to change my opinion on a subject, which isn't going well for you. So I don't really see the point of arguing.

  9. #669
    Quote Originally Posted by Drakiru View Post
    The only thing where I don't fully agree is the armor.
    agi mail is used by 4 speccs
    int mail by 2
    and int plate by 1

    in this reasoning having a class use int plate would make more sense
    Honestly, Dk's should get a fourth spec like necromancer to use that int plate as well or change unholy around completely so it uses spell power instead of attack power.

  10. #670
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Nah, it just reinforces the rest of my arguments in favor of Tinker inclusion.
    How exactly does it do that?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    Honestly, Dk's should get a fourth spec like necromancer to use that int plate as well or change unholy around completely so it uses spell power instead of attack power.
    Meh, I was a big supporter of 4th specs. Now I just don't see it happening.

  11. #671
    The Patient Hengwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Nah, it just reinforces the rest of my arguments in favor of Tinker inclusion.
    Five times nothing is still nothing.

    Tinker is as likely to happen as DH. Tinker gives way more room for specs, unlike DH which is very narrow archetype, but if the next expansion will deal with Burning Legion's return, DH becomes an obvious candidate.

  12. #672
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hengwulf View Post
    Five times nothing is still nothing.

    Tinker is as likely to happen as DH. Tinker gives way more room for specs, unlike DH which is very narrow archetype, but if the next expansion will deal with Burning Legion's return, DH becomes an obvious candidate.
    The Tinker is more likely than the DH since we've already had an expansion dealing with Demon Hunters, Demon Hunter abilities from WC3 were farmed out to other classes, Demon Hunter theme has been handed over to Warlocks, GC's tweet mentions significant overlap with other classes, and a variety of lore reasons.

    Tinkers have none of those issues. Their issue is that the class has to be implemented in a serious manner. When compared to the DH issues, that's not a big problem at all to overcome.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhamses View Post
    How exactly does it do that?
    Read post #8.

  13. #673
    Stood in the Fire Darkfie1d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The reasons;

    1. The Tinker Hero.

    Its pretty well know that Blizzard has pulled their expansion classes directly from WC3 heroes. First we had the Death Knight which was a combination of the Undead's hero units. Then we had Monks which were based from the Pandaren Brewmaster, and standard Monk archetypes. So its a pretty good bet that the next class will emerge from WoW's roster of hero units. However, several hero unit abilities currently reside within other WoW classes. Here is a list of the WC3 heroes, and the classes who have their abilities. Please note that all heroes have 4 abilities, so if the majority of those abilities are being used by other classes, it greatly diminishes the chance of a class based on that hero showing up in the game.

    Also please note that I only included abilities that used the same name as the ability in question;

    Orcs:
    Blademaster: 2 Mages/Warriors
    Shadow Hunter: 3 Shaman
    Farseer: 4 Shaman
    Tauren Chieftain: 3 Warriors/Tauren Racial/Shaman

    Humans:
    Archemage: 3 Mages
    Blood Mage: 3 Mages/Warlocks (Drain Mana has been removed from the game)
    Mountain King: 3 Warriors
    Paladin: 3 Paladins

    Night Elves:
    Keeper of the Grove: 4 Druids (Thorns was removed from the game)
    Priestess of the Moon: 2 Hunters/Druids
    Warden: 2 Mages/Rogues
    Demon Hunter: 4 Rogues/Warlocks/Priest (Mana Burn was removed from the game)

    Undead:
    Death Knight: 4 Death Knight
    Lich: 3 Death Knight/Mages
    Dreadlord: 4 Warlocks/Death Knights
    Crypt Lord: 1 Death Knights


    Neutral:
    Naga Sea Witch: 1 Mages (Mana shield was removed from the game. Replaced with Incanter's Ward in MoP)
    Dark Ranger: 3 Hunters/Priests/Warlocks (Drain Life was changed into Harvest Life in MoP)
    Brewmaster: 4 Monks
    Beastmaster: 1 Hunters
    Pit Lord: 3 Warlocks
    Goblin Tinker: 0
    Firelord: 2 Warlocks
    Goblin Alchemist:0


    So as you can see, the only heroes left that have no ability represenation in WoW are the Tinker unit and the Alchemist unit.


    2. The loot hole.

    Currently nearly every armor set has 3 classes using it. The only armor set that is still only using 2 classes is the mail armor set. A Tinker class could fill that gap easily, since it wouldn't go against the Tinker's lore to wear mail armor. Another big loot gap is bow/gun weapons. This gap is somewhat justified since Hunters can really only use Ranged weapons now. However, it does bother some that only one class can use 3 families of weapons with no competition. The 4th ranged weapon, Wands can be used by 3 different classes. It seems kind of imbalanced for all parities involved. A Tinker class could also use ranged weapons such as guns and crossbows and not break its lore.

    3. Thematics.

    As we enter the winter of WoW's life cycle, its getting harder and harder to think of unique class concepts that have a connection to the original RTS and the game itself. Monks came dangerously close to being too much like Rogues. Thankfully the unique style of the Pandaren Brewmaster, alongside a highly imaginative healing spec and resource system allowed Monks to still be a unique and entertaining class with a strong connection to the source material. I've always felt that one of the great strengths of WoW is that Blizzard is very particular about what classes they bring into the game. Sure fans would have loved to see a Necromancer in the game, but Blizzard instead chose to bring in a Death Knight with Necromantic abilities. So instead of adding yet ANOTHER clothie caster to the game that clashed with an existing class just because it was popular, Blizzard introduced a slightly less popular class that fit the game's dynamic (and loot tables) better.

    The Tinker would also be a very unique class concept in a class roster filled with traditional casters and old fashioned knights in armor swinging swords around. If implemented, this class would never be confused for another class in the game. Also it is the only class that is highly different than Hunters, but could still logically share guns and crossbows with them. Tinker would be unlike any other class that has ever been introduced. It would also finally give non-melee players a chance to play something new. Again, since none of its core abilities are in the spell books of other classes, the class wouldn't step on any toes during the implementation process.

    4. Hybrid Vigor

    Tinkers could clearly fit any role in the game. They could be melee, they could be ranged, they could be casters, they could fire weapons, they could heal their allies, they could tank, etc. Whatever Blizzard needs, the Tinker could fill the role pretty easily. A Dark Ranger could never tank or heal a raid, but a Tinker could, and it would make perfect sense. This is especially important since there is no 4th tri-spec (healing/tank/DPS) class currently in the game, and Blizzard may want to introduce such a class to finish off the class roster.

    5. Racial Harmony

    Like Monks before them, a Tinker class could be played by any race in the game. Like Martial Arts, technical know-how can be taught to anyone. This adds to a class' chance of implementation, because clearly the developers want class concepts that can be applied to as many races as possible. Everyone doesn't like Elves or Goblins, so the option to potentially be able to play a new class on your race of choice is highly attractive to the game developers.

    Also let's remember that Goblins and especially Gnomes need some love and some lore. These are two highly advanced races that have seemingly been looked over as the game has progressed. It would be cool to see Goblins and Gnomes finally have a class that properly reflects their unique cultures. Afterall, its pretty jarring to drive around in a car during the Goblin starting zone, and then hop out wearing a full suit of armor with a sword and shield.

    - - - Updated - - -



    We just had a poll where Tinkers beat out Demon Hunters by about 40 votes.
    Top notch work.
    /thumbsup

    "Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  14. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The Tinker is more likely than the DH since we've already had an expansion dealing with Demon Hunters, Demon Hunter abilities from WC3 were farmed out to other classes, Demon Hunter theme has been handed over to Warlocks, GC's tweet mentions significant overlap with other classes, and a variety of lore reasons.

    Tinkers have none of those issues. Their issue is that the class has to be implemented in a serious manner. When compared to the DH issues, that's not a big problem at all to overcome.
    While TBC had strong Burning Legion presence, so would an expansion that is about return of Burning Legion. So Demon Hunter would fit perfectly.

    Abilities being gives out have no significance - locks got DC, so did DKs, no problem. Abilities can be removed as well as added. DH's theme while similar to warlock's is different, and when executed correctly won't be a problem. Overlap, while causing problems, would be nothing really new. Such a pattern lover like yourself couldn't miss the obvious WotLK/DK - MoP/monk - -return of the BL-/DH.

    Tinker's theme was handed over to engineering profession. Also, it can be too whimsical. So Tinker doesn't really share same issues as DH, but got different ones. While GC tweet about DH is slightly more negative than about Tinker, it's general message is the same: "there are some problems about this idea" and that's it.

  15. #675
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    If Tinker does come about I finally have a reason to roll a gnome
    I love Warcraft, I dislike WoW

    Unsubbed since January 2021, now a Warcraft fan from a distance

  16. #676
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hengwulf View Post
    While TBC had strong Burning Legion presence, so would an expansion that is about return of Burning Legion. So Demon Hunter would fit perfectly.
    TBC had strong BL presence AND a strong Demon Hunter presence. To introduce a Demon Hunter class, that BL expansion would need to have a strong DH presence again. Are you seriously thinking that Blizzard is going to do a retread of TBC?

    Abilities being gives out have no significance - locks got DC, so did DKs, no problem. Abilities can be removed as well as added. DH's theme while similar to warlock's is different, and when executed correctly won't be a problem. Overlap, while causing problems, would be nothing really new. Such a pattern lover like yourself couldn't miss the obvious WotLK/DK - MoP/monk - -return of the BL-/DH.
    Lock version of DC isn't the same as the DK version. So no, the level of DH overlap is pretty unprecedented, and it was done on purpose by Blizzard. The idea that Blizzard is going to simply stop applying the DH theme to Warlocks seems pretty unlikely, since its been an ongoing process since WotLK.

    Also the return of the BL doesn't automatically mean Demon Hunter class. Keep in mind, the Legion uses a significant amount of advanced technology themselves. Also their master is a titan. The titans also use pretty advanced technology.

    Tinker's theme was handed over to engineering profession. Also, it can be too whimsical. So Tinker doesn't really share same issues as DH, but got different ones. While GC tweet about DH is slightly more negative than about Tinker, it's general message is the same: "there are some problems about this idea" and that's it.
    He also said it depends on its treatment. In other words, even though these issues exist, if done correctly, we can work through them. Making a class a bit more serious is quite a bit easier than putting a class into the game that shares design space with several existing classes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    If Tinker does come about I finally have a reason to roll a gnome
    LoL! Same. I would love to finally be able to make a Gnome and Goblin character that didn't feel ridiculously out of place in the game class-wise.

  17. #677
    The Patient Hengwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    TBC had strong BL presence AND a strong Demon Hunter presence. To introduce a Demon Hunter class, that BL expansion would need to have a strong DH presence again. Are you seriously thinking that Blizzard is going to do a retread of TBC?
    If there will be an expac about return of the BL (and since that story is far from over, it is very likely) NPC DHs are 100% sure to reappear. Opportunity to make it player character class will be there. That is actually the least of DH's problems.

    Lock version of DC isn't the same as the DK version. So no, the level of DH overlap is pretty unprecedented, and it was done on purpose by Blizzard.
    And ofc DH's evasion wouldn't be the same as Rogue's. Happened before, might happen again. Overlap is an obstacle, bit not impossible to bypass.

    Also the return of the BL doesn't automatically mean Demon Hunter class. Keep in mind, the Legion uses a significant amount of advanced technology themselves. Also their master is a titan. The titans also use pretty advanced technology.
    Stop forcing it. That X block doesn't go into that square hole, you might break it.

    He also said it depends on its treatment. In other words, even though these issues exist, if done correctly, we can work through them. Making a class a bit more serious is quite a bit easier than putting a class into the game that shares design space with several existing classes.
    Perhaps. But, what is important, that neither is impossible to do. If Blizzard would want DHs in the game, but that would require to defeat more obstacles, they would do it anyway. They do not look for the easiest class to implement, but for the most fitting and coolest.

  18. #678
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    TBC had strong BL presence AND a strong Demon Hunter presence. To introduce a Demon Hunter class, that BL expansion would need to have a strong DH presence again. Are you seriously thinking that Blizzard is going to do a retread of TBC?
    There are thousands upon thousands of requests to bring TBC back, so it's possible that's actually what some fans want. Besides, Legion expansion is coming. That's going to have a strong BL presence, whether it is a retread of TBC or something completely new.

    Lock version of DC isn't the same as the DK version. So no, the level of DH overlap is pretty unprecedented, and it was done on purpose by Blizzard. The idea that Blizzard is going to simply stop applying the DH theme to Warlocks seems pretty unlikely, since its been an ongoing process since WotLK.
    New DH class wouldn't have anything to do with Warlocks. New spells, new abilities, new identity. Tinkers on the other hand can already be played by every class, just take Engineering.

    Also the return of the BL doesn't automatically mean Demon Hunter class. Keep in mind, the Legion uses a significant amount of advanced technology themselves. Also their master is a titan. The titans also use pretty advanced technology.
    The Legion uses necromantic magic more than they do technology. Tinkers have nothing to do with Legion tech, and bridging that concept would confuse the playerbase more than it would excite them.

  19. #679
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    There are thousands upon thousands of requests to bring TBC back, so it's possible that's actually what some fans want. Besides, Legion expansion is coming. That's going to have a strong BL presence, whether it is a retread of TBC or something completely new.

    LoL! It's not possible at all. Blizzard isn't going to rehash an entire expansion. Also, we kind of exterminated Demon Hunters last time we ran through Outland.


    New DH class wouldn't have anything to do with Warlocks. New spells, new abilities, new identity.
    Then they aren't Demon Hunters.

    Tinkers on the other hand can already be played by every class, just take Engineering.
    None of the Tinker abilities exist in Engineering, so that's false.

    The Legion uses necromantic magic more than they do technology. Tinkers have nothing to do with Legion tech, and bridging that concept would confuse the playerbase more than it would excite them.
    Actually there's legion tech all over the place. Let's also not forget that the only way we could possibly defeat Sageras is with Titan Technology.

  20. #680
    Banned But I Hate You All's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    LoL! It's not possible at all. Blizzard isn't going to rehash an entire expansion. Also, we kind of exterminated Demon Hunters last time we ran through Outland.
    Cata says hi

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Then they aren't Demon Hunters.
    Ummm if blizzard called them Demon Hunters they would be such

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    None of the Tinker abilities exist in Engineering, so that's false.
    Same archetype, Also goblins have the rocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually there's legion tech all over the place. Let's also not forget that the only way we could possibly defeat Sageras is with Titan Technology.
    Ummm The legion uses fel magic more, I would like to see the source about only way to defeat Sageras is with Titan Technology

    Also you kinda flip flop on what tinkers are between WC3, Titan Tech, Any Tech, BL Tech.

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