Thread: Tinker Class

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  1. #681
    Warchief Orby's Avatar
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    If Tinker does come about I finally have a reason to roll a gnome
    Long Live Dizzy - May his boxing gloves never shrink in the wash

  2. #682
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hengwulf View Post
    While TBC had strong Burning Legion presence, so would an expansion that is about return of Burning Legion. So Demon Hunter would fit perfectly.
    TBC had strong BL presence AND a strong Demon Hunter presence. To introduce a Demon Hunter class, that BL expansion would need to have a strong DH presence again. Are you seriously thinking that Blizzard is going to do a retread of TBC?

    Abilities being gives out have no significance - locks got DC, so did DKs, no problem. Abilities can be removed as well as added. DH's theme while similar to warlock's is different, and when executed correctly won't be a problem. Overlap, while causing problems, would be nothing really new. Such a pattern lover like yourself couldn't miss the obvious WotLK/DK - MoP/monk - -return of the BL-/DH.
    Lock version of DC isn't the same as the DK version. So no, the level of DH overlap is pretty unprecedented, and it was done on purpose by Blizzard. The idea that Blizzard is going to simply stop applying the DH theme to Warlocks seems pretty unlikely, since its been an ongoing process since WotLK.

    Also the return of the BL doesn't automatically mean Demon Hunter class. Keep in mind, the Legion uses a significant amount of advanced technology themselves. Also their master is a titan. The titans also use pretty advanced technology.

    Tinker's theme was handed over to engineering profession. Also, it can be too whimsical. So Tinker doesn't really share same issues as DH, but got different ones. While GC tweet about DH is slightly more negative than about Tinker, it's general message is the same: "there are some problems about this idea" and that's it.
    He also said it depends on its treatment. In other words, even though these issues exist, if done correctly, we can work through them. Making a class a bit more serious is quite a bit easier than putting a class into the game that shares design space with several existing classes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    If Tinker does come about I finally have a reason to roll a gnome
    LoL! Same. I would love to finally be able to make a Gnome and Goblin character that didn't feel ridiculously out of place in the game class-wise.

  3. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    TBC had strong BL presence AND a strong Demon Hunter presence. To introduce a Demon Hunter class, that BL expansion would need to have a strong DH presence again. Are you seriously thinking that Blizzard is going to do a retread of TBC?
    If there will be an expac about return of the BL (and since that story is far from over, it is very likely) NPC DHs are 100% sure to reappear. Opportunity to make it player character class will be there. That is actually the least of DH's problems.

    Lock version of DC isn't the same as the DK version. So no, the level of DH overlap is pretty unprecedented, and it was done on purpose by Blizzard.
    And ofc DH's evasion wouldn't be the same as Rogue's. Happened before, might happen again. Overlap is an obstacle, bit not impossible to bypass.

    Also the return of the BL doesn't automatically mean Demon Hunter class. Keep in mind, the Legion uses a significant amount of advanced technology themselves. Also their master is a titan. The titans also use pretty advanced technology.
    Stop forcing it. That X block doesn't go into that square hole, you might break it.

    He also said it depends on its treatment. In other words, even though these issues exist, if done correctly, we can work through them. Making a class a bit more serious is quite a bit easier than putting a class into the game that shares design space with several existing classes.
    Perhaps. But, what is important, that neither is impossible to do. If Blizzard would want DHs in the game, but that would require to defeat more obstacles, they would do it anyway. They do not look for the easiest class to implement, but for the most fitting and coolest.

  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    TBC had strong BL presence AND a strong Demon Hunter presence. To introduce a Demon Hunter class, that BL expansion would need to have a strong DH presence again. Are you seriously thinking that Blizzard is going to do a retread of TBC?
    There are thousands upon thousands of requests to bring TBC back, so it's possible that's actually what some fans want. Besides, Legion expansion is coming. That's going to have a strong BL presence, whether it is a retread of TBC or something completely new.

    Lock version of DC isn't the same as the DK version. So no, the level of DH overlap is pretty unprecedented, and it was done on purpose by Blizzard. The idea that Blizzard is going to simply stop applying the DH theme to Warlocks seems pretty unlikely, since its been an ongoing process since WotLK.
    New DH class wouldn't have anything to do with Warlocks. New spells, new abilities, new identity. Tinkers on the other hand can already be played by every class, just take Engineering.

    Also the return of the BL doesn't automatically mean Demon Hunter class. Keep in mind, the Legion uses a significant amount of advanced technology themselves. Also their master is a titan. The titans also use pretty advanced technology.
    The Legion uses necromantic magic more than they do technology. Tinkers have nothing to do with Legion tech, and bridging that concept would confuse the playerbase more than it would excite them.

  5. #685
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    There are thousands upon thousands of requests to bring TBC back, so it's possible that's actually what some fans want. Besides, Legion expansion is coming. That's going to have a strong BL presence, whether it is a retread of TBC or something completely new.

    LoL! It's not possible at all. Blizzard isn't going to rehash an entire expansion. Also, we kind of exterminated Demon Hunters last time we ran through Outland.


    New DH class wouldn't have anything to do with Warlocks. New spells, new abilities, new identity.
    Then they aren't Demon Hunters.

    Tinkers on the other hand can already be played by every class, just take Engineering.
    None of the Tinker abilities exist in Engineering, so that's false.

    The Legion uses necromantic magic more than they do technology. Tinkers have nothing to do with Legion tech, and bridging that concept would confuse the playerbase more than it would excite them.
    Actually there's legion tech all over the place. Let's also not forget that the only way we could possibly defeat Sageras is with Titan Technology.

  6. #686
    Banned But I Hate You All's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    LoL! It's not possible at all. Blizzard isn't going to rehash an entire expansion. Also, we kind of exterminated Demon Hunters last time we ran through Outland.
    Cata says hi

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Then they aren't Demon Hunters.
    Ummm if blizzard called them Demon Hunters they would be such

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    None of the Tinker abilities exist in Engineering, so that's false.
    Same archetype, Also goblins have the rocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually there's legion tech all over the place. Let's also not forget that the only way we could possibly defeat Sageras is with Titan Technology.
    Ummm The legion uses fel magic more, I would like to see the source about only way to defeat Sageras is with Titan Technology

    Also you kinda flip flop on what tinkers are between WC3, Titan Tech, Any Tech, BL Tech.

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    LoL! It's not possible at all. Blizzard isn't going to rehash an entire expansion. Also, we kind of exterminated Demon Hunters last time we ran through Outland.
    Depends on what you're exactly talking about. What degree of 'rehash' are you talking about? In the broadest terms, revisiting the Legion at all could be considered 'Rehash', because we've already fought demons on a different planet. If we revisit a revamped Outland as a platform to launch a campaign against other worlds, would you also consider that 'rehash'?

    People like the Burning Legion as an enemy.

    Then they aren't Demon Hunters.
    Sure they are. Demon Hunters are whatever Blizzard defines them to be.

    Actually there's legion tech all over the place. Let's also not forget that the only way we could possibly defeat Sageras is with Titan Technology.
    So Tinkers are based on Titan technology now? I don't see how that would be relevant to Tinkers. It confuses the situation even more.

  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    LoL! It's not possible at all. Blizzard isn't going to rehash an entire expansion. Also, we kind of exterminated Demon Hunters last time we ran through Outland.
    You exterminated Illidari Demon Hunters. But there are still some left, and they're true to their original cause - Altruis the Sufferer, for example.
    None of the Tinker abilities exist in Engineering, so that's false.
    Are you saying that Mekkatorque isn't a Tinker, just because he got no WC3 unit spells?

    Stop with this "must have an ability" bs, one ability doesn't mean anything, unless in your opinion rogue = demon hunter and warlock = demon hunter.

  9. #689
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by But I Hate You All View Post
    Cata says hi
    How in the world was Cataclysm a rehash?

    Ummm if blizzard called them Demon Hunters they would be such
    I seriously doubt Blizzard would create some random class and label it "Demon Hunters". I seriously doubt Blizzard would even bring a class into the game called "Demon Hunters".

    Same archetype, Also goblins have the rocks
    It's not the same archetype because Engineering isn't a class.

    Also you kinda flip flop on what tinkers are between WC3, Titan Tech, Any Tech, BL Tech.
    Technology class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Depends on what you're exactly talking about. What degree of 'rehash' are you talking about? In the broadest terms, revisiting the Legion at all could be considered 'Rehash', because we've already fought demons on a different planet. If we revisit a revamped Outland as a platform to launch a campaign against other worlds, would you also consider that 'rehash'?
    Yep. There's a variety of ways you can do a Legion expansion, and the BL is inevitable. However, Demon Hunters don't come with the BL by default. In order to do Demon Hunters, you need to explain their proliferation. That would have worked in TBC because we had a reason for their proliferation. Currently we don't have one because we wiped out 90% of them the last time we ran across them in significant numbers.

    People like the Burning Legion as an enemy.
    I'm not saying a BL expansion isn't happening. I'm saying that BL doesn't automatically equate to a Demon Hunter class.

    Sure they are. Demon Hunters are whatever Blizzard defines them to be.
    And Blizzard has already defined them. Along with farming out their abilities to other classes, and giving their theme to Warlocks.

    So Tinkers are based on Titan technology now? I don't see how that would be relevant to Tinkers. It confuses the situation even more.
    A technology class being linked to in-game technology confuses you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hengwulf View Post
    You exterminated Illidari Demon Hunters. But there are still some left, and they're true to their original cause - Altruis the Sufferer, for example.
    The point is that we've already done this dance. We had a legion expansion, and we had lots of Demon Hunters. No Demon Hunter class. So yeah, Demon Hunters have far less of a chance to show up as a class than Tinkers.

    Are you saying that Mekkatorque isn't a Tinker, just because he got no WC3 unit spells?
    Mekkatorque is a faction leader. Faction leaders tend to have different sets of abilities, even if they're part of in-game classes.

    Stop with this "must have an ability" bs, one ability doesn't mean anything, unless in your opinion rogue = demon hunter and warlock = demon hunter.
    Every other applicable class has their abilities from WC3. It stands to reason that DHs have to follow suit.

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The point is that we've already done this dance. We had a legion expansion, and we had lots of Demon Hunters. No Demon Hunter class. So yeah, Demon Hunters have far less of a chance to show up as a class than Tinkers.
    The main enemy of TBC was Illidan and his lieutenants. Burning Legion shown up only in SWP. -If- there would be an expac about BL return, demons would be the main enemy - and that would actually make restoration of Demon Hunters make much more sense than doing it in TBC. Tinkers have nothing to do with BL invasion.
    Mekkatorque is a faction leader. Faction leaders tend to have different sets of abilities, even if they're part of in-game classes.
    Nice double standards, buddy You rather pull out yet another "Teriz's rule of design" noone else knows about, than admit you're wrong.

    Tinker isn't about some ability, but about fitting an archetype of crazy inventor with various gadgets. Mekkatorque fits that archetype. So do Engineers.
    Every other applicable class has their abilities from WC3. It stands to reason that DHs have to follow suit.
    Shame that GC doesn't agree with you. But you know better anyway.

  11. #691
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hengwulf View Post
    Nice double standards, buddy You rather pull out yet another "Teriz's rule of design" noone else knows about, than admit you're wrong.
    Where an I wrong? Faction Leaders have abilities that the classes don't, even though they're technically part of that class.

    Also Tinkers aren't a class yet.

    Tinker isn't about some ability, but about fitting an archetype of crazy inventor with various gadgets. Mekkatorque fits that archetype. So do Engineers.
    You seem to miss the point, so let me reiterate; Every WoW class has ties to WC3. Every single one. Every WoW class that is pulled directly from WC3 has all of the associated abilities from its WC3 equivalent. Example, Druids have the associated Druid WC3 abilities, and Shaman have the associated WC3 Shaman abilities. Neither class shares those associated abilities with any other class.

    The reason you can't say that Engineering makes you a Tinker class is because Engineering doesn't possess the WC3 abilities that the WoW Tinker should/would have (its also a profession that doesnt operate like a class anyway). The reason your silly little Mekkatorque argument doesn't work is because faction leaders have class abilities along with unique abilities, and Tinkers aren't a class (yet).

    The reason why Demon Hunters won't be a class is because those WC3 abilities that every WoW class posseses have already been farmed out to other classes.

    Hope that helps.

    Shame that GC doesn't agree with you. But you know better anyway.
    The real shame is that that had nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-09-08 at 09:42 PM.

  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I'm not saying a BL expansion isn't happening. I'm saying that BL doesn't automatically equate to a Demon Hunter class.
    Course it doesn't automatically equate that. It only increases likelyhood, and that's what you've been pointing out, right? That it's not impossible for a Demon Hunter class, but it's unlikely. Well if a BL expansion was never going to happen, that likelyhood would remain low; but the fact that one is coming, and the fact that Demon Hunters are still in demand...

    And Blizzard has already defined them. Along with farming out their abilities to other classes, and giving their theme to Warlocks.
    Trivial. New class, new abilities. Demon Hunter has no abilities yet because it does not yet exist. Warcraft 3 abilities have no bearing on WoW classes. If Warcraft 3 really had any direct impact on WoW, Paladins would still have 'Ressurection' instead of Priests.

    A technology class being linked to in-game technology confuses you?
    Relating supernatural Titan tech to Steampunk confuses me, yes. You may as well say a Naga expansion will have playable Dragons because they are both reptilian.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-09-08 at 09:52 PM.

  13. #693
    The Patient Darkfie1d's Avatar
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    What good is the Demon Hunter class when it's lore-wise only a Night Elf thing with a very few exception Blood elves demon hunters? Tinker is the way to go if you ask me.

    "In the light, we are one."

  14. #694
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Course it doesn't automatically equate that. It only increases likelyhood, and that's what you've been pointing out, right? That it's not impossible for a Demon Hunter class, but it's unlikely. Well if a BL expansion was never going to happen, that likelyhood would remain low; but the fact that one is coming, and the fact that Demon Hunters are still in demand...
    The other problem being that we already had an expansion based on Demon Hunters.

    Trivial. New class, new abilities. Demon Hunter has no abilities yet because it does not yet exist. Warcraft 3 abilities have no bearing on WoW classes. If Warcraft 3 really had any direct impact on WoW, Paladins would still have 'Ressurection' instead of Priests.
    Uh they do. Which is why every WoW class has a direct tie to WC3 heroes and units.



    Relating supernatural Titan tech to Steampunk confuses me, yes. You may as well say a Naga expansion will have playable Dragons because they are both reptilian.
    Except technology in WoW doesn't just include Steampunk. It also includes supernatural/magic technology. Even the Tinker hero unit had the ability to transform itself into a machine and back again at will.

    Titan technology has been shown to perform similar feats.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-09-08 at 10:06 PM.

  15. #695
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The other problem being that we already had an expansion based on Demon Hunters.
    The expansion wasn't based on Demon Hunters. It was based on Outland and the inhabitants within. The Sethekk, Naga, Draenei, Ogres and Demons of the Burning Legion each had more presence than Illidan's Demon Hunters. If anything, I would love to see the return of Altruis, perhaps as a Demon Hunter trainer.

    Also, we had Death Knights in Naxxramas. Playable Death Knights were introduced their respectively themed expansion.

    Uh they do. Which is why every WoW class has a direct tie to WC3 heroes and units.
    Not to the extent that it prevents a new WoW class from existing. WC3 heroes/units are tied to WoW by theme; they don't direct final judgement on the creation of any new class. Remember, even Runemaster was a class that was considered, and there are no Runemasters in Warcraft history. They solely exist within the Warcraft RPG books.

    Except technology in WoW doesn't just include Steampunk. It also includes supernatural/magic technology. Even the Tinker hero unit had the ability to transform itself into a machine and back again at will.

    Titan technology has been shown to perform similar feats.
    What is your point? That Tinkers will use Titan technology, or that Titans will create a Tinker class? Seems pretty far-fetched if you ask me. Give me Steampunk Tinkers, not whatever crazy Titan thing you're suggesting here.

    ----

    What good is the Demon Hunter class when it's lore-wise only a Night Elf thing with a very few exception Blood elves demon hunters? Tinker is the way to go if you ask me.
    Nothing limits more races becoming Demon Hunters if they opened up to training the Alliance and the Horde. They are radicals who give up their own cultures, choosing to live a solitary life dedicated to hunting demons. This means even altruistic races like Draenei have the possibility of becoming Demon Hunters.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-09-08 at 10:33 PM.

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Where an I wrong? Faction Leaders have abilities that the classes don't, even though they're technically part of that class.

    Also Tinkers aren't a class yet.

    You seem to miss the point, so let me reiterate; Every WoW class has ties to WC3. Every single one. Every WoW class that is pulled directly from WC3 has all of the associated abilities from its WC3 equivalent. Example, Druids have the associated Druid WC3 abilities, and Shaman have the associated WC3 Shaman abilities. Neither class shares those associated abilities with any other class.

    The reason you can't say that Engineering makes you a Tinker class is because Engineering doesn't possess the WC3 abilities that the WoW Tinker should/would have (its also a profession that doesnt operate like a class anyway). The reason your silly little Mekkatorque argument doesn't work is because faction leaders have class abilities along with unique abilities, and Tinkers aren't a class (yet).

    The reason why Demon Hunters won't be a class is because those WC3 abilities that every WoW class posseses have already been farmed out to other classes.

    Hope that helps.
    Doesn't change the fact that Mekkatorque is a tinker and has nothing to do with WC3 tinker, except for general theme, which is also shared by engineering profession. Yet you have no problem of accepting it for Mekkatorque, but can't accept it for engineering. Double standards. You follow even your own logic only when it suits your argument.

    The real shame is that that had nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
    Read it again. GC says that blindly following some traditions, patterns and suchlike is an obstacle, and not any help. So even if they would exist, they're to be broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfie1d View Post
    What good is the Demon Hunter class when it's lore-wise only a Night Elf thing with a very few exception Blood elves demon hunters? Tinker is the way to go if you ask me.
    One would think that with BL invading Azeroth members of other races might fancy to try their luck at Demon Hunting themselves. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

  17. #697
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    The expansion wasn't based on Demon Hunters. It was based on Outland and the inhabitants within. The Sethekk, Naga, Draenei, Ogres and Demons of the Burning Legion each had more presence than Illidan's Demon Hunters. If anything, I would love to see the return of Altruis, perhaps as a Demon Hunter trainer.

    Also, we had Death Knights in Naxxramas. Playable Death Knights were introduced their respectively themed expansion.
    Naxx was one raid. TBC was completely about Demon Hunters, the Burning Legion, and Outland. Hell, Illidan was in the opening cinematic.

    Again, it is highly unlikely that Blizzard will do yet another another Burning Legion expansion with a high population of Demon Hunters. It sort of doesn't help that we killed Demon Hunters during that expansion, and Blizzard actively farmed out Demon Hunter abilities to other classes.

    Not to the extent that it prevents a new WoW class from existing. WC3 heroes/units are tied to WoW by theme; they don't direct final judgement on the creation of any new class.
    Then why is every WoW class tied directly to WC3? Why would Blizzard stop doing what they've been doing for 11 classes, and suddenly stop with the 12th?

    Remember, even Runemaster was a class that was considered, and there are no Runemasters in Warcraft history. They solely exist within the Warcraft RPG books.
    Let me know when the Runemaster class pops up in WoW. Then I'll believe that fairy tale.


    What is your point? That Tinkers will use Titan technology, or that Titans will create a Tinker class?
    To make you less confused about a technology class using technology.

    Seems pretty far-fetched if you ask me. Give me Steampunk Tinkers, not whatever crazy Titan thing you're suggesting here.
    My point is that a technology class can use supernatural technology, because the WC3 Tinker hero has shown the ability to use supernatural technology. And like I said before; All WoW classes are tied to WC3.

    Every single one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hengwulf View Post
    Doesn't change the fact that Mekkatorque is a tinker and has nothing to do with WC3 tinker, except for general theme, which is also shared by engineering profession. Yet you have no problem of accepting it for Mekkatorque, but can't accept it for engineering. Double standards. You follow even your own logic only when it suits your argument.
    Already explained. Oh, and you can't play as Mekkatorque.

    Read it again. GC says that blindly following some traditions, patterns and suchlike is an obstacle, and not any help. So even if they would exist, they're to be broken.
    I don't know how you got that from this;

    Hamilton ‏@dphamilton85 21 Jun
    @Ghostcrawler Do you ever wish you could redo the class system? Drop/add classes, redo roles,etc?

    ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @dphamilton85 Every day. We struggle with expectations, tradition, precedent and that's-the-way-it's-always-been constantly.
    In any case, they haven't broken it after nearly 10 years and 11 classes.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-09-08 at 11:04 PM.

  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, it is highly unlikely that Blizzard will do yet another another Burning Legion expansion with a high population of Demon Hunters. It sort of doesn't help that we killed Demon Hunters during that expansion, and Blizzard actively farmed out Demon Hunter abilities to other classes.
    You don't need a high population of Demon Hunters, you just need a lot of Demons to justify the new class.

    All players could be fresh recruits trained by the OG Night Elf Demon Hunters, the ones not trained under Illidan's post-demonic regime. The players go through a questing zone that goes through a bunch of trials, possibly themed on gaining a new runic tattoo to allow them to absorb different types of demonic/supernatural energy; and culminating to the ritual blinding and Spectral Sight.

    Since all the player characters are a new order of Demon Hunters trained by the originals, this can be opened up to many more classes and doesn't need to be made into a Hero class. These guys have nothing to do with the Illidari, who are bad guys anyways. It's like what Garrosh's True Horde, just because the Kor'kron Orcs are bad doesn't mean playable Orcs are evil.

    Then why is every WoW class tied directly to WC3? Why would Blizzard stop doing what they've been doing for 11 classes, and suddenly stop with the 12th?
    No one said 12th class is the last.

    Let me know when the Runemaster class pops up in WoW. Then I'll believe that fairy tale.
    My point is that a technology class can use supernatural technology, because the WC3 Tinker hero has shown the ability to use supernatural technology. And like I said before; All WoW classes are tied to WC3.
    So you're saying Tinkers can use Titan technology. This must be one of the fairy tales you were talking about.

    There is a reason why Engineering is separated into subclasses such as Gnomish and Goblin Engineering. Just because you are an engineer doesn't mean you are automatically able to use the technology from any and all races. It's why Gnomes and Goblins compete with each other. Saying that all types of Technology is available to the Tinker makes them unbelievable and uninteresting. You're no longer talking about Tinkers, you're talking about Macguyver.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-09-08 at 11:13 PM.

  19. #699
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    You don't need a high population of Demon Hunters, you just need a lot of Demons to justify the new class.
    We had both in TBC. No Demon Hunter class. Now your argument is that Blizzard is going to do another expansion with lots of Demons and Demon Hunters, and introduce a DH class after farming off the DH's abilities for several years?

    Okay.... That's believable.

    No one said 12th class is the last.
    Based on armor, class type, remaining WC3 heroes, remaining unique archetypes, and the game's age, it very well could be.


    So you're saying Tinkers can use Titan technology. This must be one of the fairy tales you were talking about.
    I'm saying that Tinkers have shown that they can use supernatural/magical tech that can do what Titan technology has done in the past.

  20. #700
    Why is there so much tunnel vision on either tinker or DH it could be another class i for one hope on a ranged based class this time now we had 2 times melee classes.

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