Thread: Tinker Class

Page 44 of 64 FirstFirst ...
34
42
43
44
45
46
54
... LastLast
  1. #861
    A Warlock summons a demon , sacrifices it, absorbs its power and then fights bad guys. If Blizzard canonises the Demon Huntersa bilityt oa bsorb demon power - where is the difference?
    But warlocks don't absorb demon powers. They use demon magic (not powers like cunning or controlling races or corrupting entire races), they summon demons (make a pact with them), and enslave demons.

    Why can not a Warlock be someone who deliberately risks his own soul to fight fire with fire by turning demon against demon? Why can a Warlock not have a branch of magic that allows him to focus all that power into melee combat.
    Why can not priest be someone who sacrifice his own holy spells to do damage and not heal? Why can Priest not have a branch of magic that allows him to focus all that power into melee combat?

    Yes, they take all that and give it to Paladins (with different lore, mechanics and aesthetics). They can do the same with DH.

    It doesn't. The gameplay difference between a Warlock sacrificing a demon for power and a Demon Hunter killing one for power doesn't exist. Both are going to have to have the ability to summon a demon, both are going to have to have the ability to gain a buff through killing it.
    You are right here:
    Warlock: Ranged magical caster using summons.
    DH: Melee magical/physical user.

    P.D: I'm not understanding why DH should have any summon ability.
    Last edited by Belisaurio; 2013-09-11 at 11:58 PM.

  2. #862
    This is pretty much the whole DH as 4th spec argument. Everyone that is trying to push it as a good idea don't really know what a Demon Hunter is. They know what a Warlock is. They project the idea of the Warlock onto the Demon Hunter, address the title only by name, and then say it fits in seamlessly as a 4th spec.

    Well of course it would fit in seamlessly, you're just taking the idea of a Warlock and attaching it to the same class.

  3. #863
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    The question is...does it really matter?

    A Warlock summons a demon , sacrifices it, absorbs its power and then fights bad guys. If Blizzard canonises the Demon Huntersa bilityt oa bsorb demon power - where is the difference?

    What's more....if Blizzard does canonise this ability, game mechanics will insist that he be able to summon a demon, will likely insist that he have a selection available to him for variety in both effect and look and will limit his selection of demons to a handful. Why? Because you can't have a meaningful buff without a way to activate it and Blizzard sure ain't going to populate every zone with demons.

    Why can not a Warlock be someone who deliberately risks his own soul to fight fire with fire by turning demon against demon? Why can a Warlock not have a branch of magic that allows him to focus all that power into melee combat.

    You see a Warlocks relationship with demons as fundamentally different from that of a Warlock.

    But that assumption is based on your own vision on how Demon Hunters act and behave. Its based on your assumption over how and why both Warlocks and Demon Hunters act and behave.

    In short, that assumption is based upon nothing more than your own personal desire as to how each class should act.

    Such assumptions, personal backstories, motivations and so on have played no role in class design before. And even if your assumptions were correct, what does it matter? How does it affect gameplay?

    It doesn't. The gameplay difference between a Warlock sacrificing a demon for power and a Demon Hunter killing one for power doesn't exist. Both are going to have to have the ability to summon a demon, both are going to have to have the ability to gain a buff through killing it.

    Now - you want to show that standalone demon hunters are plausible? You need to show a gameplay reason to justify a separate design.
    Ever seen the DHs in WC3 or Leotheras the Blind fight in SSC? DHs have demons absorbed permanently, not for a bit, but for lifetime, bound within their bodies. Normally they are just using this demon as a source of power, but still for their own body, but sometimes they let the demon form take over the NE form, still staying in control ofc (or not, like poor Leo).

    To give an example, Warlock is a hunter with wolf pet, but DH is like a worgen, althought it is still bit inaccurate, since demon is still another being, only stripped of his physical form unless during the metamorphosis.

  4. #864
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Beach City
    Posts
    8,778
    Quote Originally Posted by Hengwulf View Post
    Ever seen the DHs in WC3 or Leotheras the Blind fight in SSC? DHs have demons absorbed permanently, not for a bit, but for lifetime, bound within their bodies. Normally they are just using this demon as a source of power, but still for their own body, but sometimes they let the demon form take over the NE form, still staying in control ofc (or not, like poor Leo).

    To give an example, Warlock is a hunter with wolf pet, but DH is like a worgen, althought it is still bit inaccurate, since demon is still another being, only stripped of his physical form unless during the metamorphosis.
    Yeah, but Warlocks can transform themselves into demons. With Dark Apotheosis they can be demons permanently. So essentially, they can be like the Worgen AND the hunter.

  5. #865
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, but Warlocks can transform themselves into demons. With Dark Apotheosis they can be demons permanently. So essentially, they can be like the Worgen AND the hunter.
    That is true. Although, as far as I understand warlocks are still themselves, just imbued with demonic energies, even if taking demon form, they are still humans, while DH takes form of a real demon, another entity from Twisting Nether. Lorewise, it is different. Mechanically, in game, they both turn to demons, and yes, that is a big overlap and a problem.

  6. #866
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Druids bear form doesn't exactly take up any more visual space than a tanky character in plate would. This would be visually distracting on the level of hunters using dinosaurs with a size booster. Any time you group together, you'll be seeing multiple tinkers arms all up in your face. Not saying this is a problem that can't be worked around or gotten used to, but it's still distracting.
    a very valid point. it can be fixed by distancing the camera a little bit, no im not trying to joke or make fun of you.

    Tauren players have different camera distance than Gnomes. if you use the gnome camera on tauren you can only see his/her legs, same thing with Tinkers when they entera form the camera can distance itself automatically (if the game-engine decides that your camera is too close to the character.)

    these mechanical hands can be bigger on Gnomes/Goblins/Dwarves and smaller on humans/Forsaken/Blood Elves (for example humans can have only one mechanical hand similar to tech marine mechano-arm in Warhammer 40k, and their mechanical hand can be packed/bended I don't know the correct english word for that but it does not have to flap around in the air like the goblin concept mechano-arm.)

  7. #867
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    8,016
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Without citing any source of lore or theme, please explain to be me the difference between Mages using ranged Frost spells and Death Knights using ranged Frost spells, and why they are not the same class.
    Armor. Theme. Look. Flavor. Mechanics.

    Mages and DK's use Frost spells
    But - and this is a point you overlook - it is about the only point of similarity between the classes. The two classes otherwise have different themes, looks, feel, flavors, armors, abilities, and so on. the same cannot be said for a Warlock-DH comparison where Warlocks and DHs have the same theme which needs to be explored, DHs cannot get their traditional look because Warlocks have it, many abilities are shared between the class and the NPC models and so on. While differences in the exact toolkit exist, the main difference lies in that one is melee...and the other ranged.

    The same plausibly exists between Demon Hunters and Warlocks, since Demon Hunters do not actually summon or borrow Demonic powers, they literally absorb and redirect it.
    And again...does it matter what you call it if the gameplay effect is exactly the same.

    A DH will almost certainly to be able to summon a Demon so he can empower himself when Demons are not available around him.
    And the gameplay differences between absorb and redirect vs sacrifice do not exist. Both start of with a demon; both get rid of it and empower the caster.

    If you say that it doesn't matter, then by that same logic, Mages and Death Knights could be the same because they cast Frost spells.
    Only if you overlook the other differences that exist, differences that are of a level to guarantee that Mages could never take on a DK look, them, flavor or whatever, differences that mean that Mages and DKs have their own design space - something a DH can never have. The comparison is about as valid as that of a Paladin and Priest....less so, because Paladins and Priests at least have something of a shared history.

    You may indeed say that DHs absorb and redirect Demon Power. Blizzard may indeed decide to canonise that explanation, to make it actually work that way. And it would still be irrelevant because gameplay wise, there would be no difference... none at all. You start with a demon. You kill it. You get its power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    But warlocks don't absorb demon powers. They use demon magic (not powers like cunning or controlling races or corrupting entire races), they summon demons (make a pact with them), and enslave demons.
    Take a look at Grimoire of Sacrifice. Then tell me Warlocks can't off their demon and take its power for their own. Then point out to me the difference between that and a DH killing a demon and absorbing its power for his own.

    Yes, they take all that and give it to Paladins (with different lore, mechanics and aesthetics). They can do the same with DH.
    No...they didn't. Paladins fill an entirely different niche with a different theme, look, armor, etc from Priests Beyond a shared school of magic, they share next to nothing in common.

    P.D: I'm not understanding why DH should have any summon ability.
    You want to go from Pandaria to the Blasted Lands to get a demon for you to absorb power from? if DHs end up with meaningful ability to absorb power from demons, then they will need the ability to summon a demon simply to ensure they don't need to travel the world looking for one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hengwulf View Post
    Ever seen the DHs in WC3 or Leotheras the Blind fight in SSC? DHs have demons absorbed permanently, not for a bit, but for lifetime, bound within their bodies.
    And where does it say that?

    As it is - if you are talking about a meaningful ability, then you are talking about an ability which has the same role and function as Sacrificing a Demon. If you are talking about a permanent ability, then you are talking about a lore based effect that has no ability on gameplay.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-09-12 at 01:00 PM.

  8. #868
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    A DH will almost certainly to be able to summon a Demon so he can empower himself when Demons are not available around him.
    And the gameplay differences between absorb and redirect vs sacrifice do not exist. Both start of with a demon; both get rid of it and empower the caster.
    Summoning demons is absolutely against DH lore and flavor, where you got this from?
    No...they didn't. Paladins fill an entirely different niche with a different theme, look, armor, etc from Priests Beyond a shared school of magic, they share next to nothing in common.
    Holy Paladin is pretty much a combat Holy Priest. And if you think that Demon Hunters look like Warlocks, or use similar armor, then I don't really know what to say.
    You want to go from Pandaria to the Blasted Lands to get a demon for you to absorb power from? if DHs end up with meaningful ability to absorb power from demons, then they will need the ability to summon a demon simply to ensure they don't need to travel the world looking for one.
    You don't have to go anywhere, you have a demon essence imprisoned within your body.
    And where does it say that?
    In the available lore. http://wowpedia.org/Demon_hunter
    As it is - if you are talking about a meaningful ability, then you are talking about an ability which has the same role and function as Sacrificing a Demon. If you are talking about a permanent ability, then you are talking about a lore based effect that has no ability on gameplay.
    Demon Hunters don't sacrifice demons. They hunt and kill them. Only thing that Demon Hunters share with Demonology Warlocks is ability to take a demon form.

  9. #869
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    8,016
    Quote Originally Posted by Hengwulf View Post
    Summoning demons is absolutely against DH lore and flavor, where you got this from?
    So does hanging around with demons, but we see them doing that in game as well. As it is, gameplay trumps lore...always has, and the DH won't be any exception. If this absorb capacity actually exists, then the DH will need some way to easily and quickly get a demon for him to absorb its power. Hence, summoning.

    As for against lore and flavor - thing is, its only against the lore and flavor of how players see them. Not the actual existing in game lore.

    Holy Paladin is pretty much a combat Holy Priest.
    He heals and uses Holy magic. He has a different theme, different focus, different style, flavor, look, way of fighting. In fact - nothing in common except the school of magic and the healing role.

    And if you think that Demon Hunters look like Warlocks, or use similar armor, then I don't really know what to say.
    Does Illidan wear cloth or no armour?
    Does the Challenge mode warlock armor remind you of anyone?
    Does metamorphosis seem familiar?

    You don't have to go anywhere, you have a demon essence imprisoned within your body.
    Then the mechanic is lore based and hence irrelevant as far as game and class design is concerned. Can't have it both ways. Either its a relevant mechanic....and the DH will need an ability to get them quickly and easily, which will mean summoning even if a different term is used...or its not, in which case its irrelevant and doesn't matter.

    In the available lore. http://wowpedia.org/Demon_hunter
    Is irrelevant as it's non canon. Well, mostly non-canon.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-09-12 at 02:17 PM.

  10. #870
    Take a look at Grimoire of Sacrifice. Then tell me Warlocks can't off their demon and take its power for their own. Then point out to me the difference between that and a DH killing a demon and absorbing its power for his own.
    Yeah. You sacrifice your pet. A demon that make a pact with you, and you sacrifice YOUR own demon to have a buff.
    Now, a Demon is sleeping in his bed, and someone stalks over the shadows and hit his head to death. Later he sux some "mojo" and knows a little bit how the demons function, and knows where he needs to punch to make them bleed. But this is an assumption, there is another theory that they didn't absorb any demon, they imprison them in his chest, and when DH has low battle-battery, he uses the imprisoned demon in his chest to recharge energies. In this two cases, are really different. Gameplay wise, one kill his summon to take a buff, and the other should have a permanent buff.

    No...they didn't. Paladins fill an entirely different niche with a different theme, look, armor, etc from Priests Beyond a shared school of magic, they share next to nothing in common.
    I explained in the same post.
    DH: Melee, physical/magical, fighters, use arcane/fire energy (personally, I will change fire for fel), they are shirtless, with tatoos, they don't have eyes (training to become a DH has a high tax), they started with Illidan and the DH community is elven-related race.
    Warlock: Magical ranged casters, fel/fire/shadow energym they use cloth and tunics. They are "dark mages" and make pacts with demons to have more power. They have a demon pets too (more pacts) and the most popular Warlock is Gul'dan (first Orc Warlock).

    In no way are the same, you can look a pic from any DH concept and then any Warlock concept (not fan arts, just Blizzard concepts), and the warlock one is more close to mages (aesthetics, armor, flavor) than DH. And the theme between DH and Warlocks it's the same (or more different) than Priest-Paladins.

    You want to go from Pandaria to the Blasted Lands to get a demon for you to absorb power from? if DHs end up with meaningful ability to absorb power from demons, then they will need the ability to summon a demon simply to ensure they don't need to travel the world looking for one.
    Yeah, You Are Rakh'likh. So all characters that summoned a demon, are demon-summoners. So we have some druids summoning demons too, so they are Demon-summoner/pet users, we have mages too (in more quests than a DH summoning something), we have some heroes that had RPG classes (warden) too summoning demons.
    No, DH don't summon like warlocks, they can summon demons like all other classes with a ritual and some enchanted items (and in the quest, the one that summon the Razelikh is the player after jumping with the rune-port over the demon's lair/hill, so a Hunter can summon demons too).

    So does hanging around with demons, but we see them doing that in game as well. As it is, gameplay trumps lore...always has, and the DH won';t be any exception. If this absorb capacity actually exists, then the DH will need some way to easily and quickly get a demon for him to absorb its power. Hence, summoning.
    Why? Illidan killed lot of demons, he never absorbed any of them. Only tied to absorb the fel energy of Gul'dan's skull, and look what happened, and this action could be a lore-action, not a class action (trying to absorb power from a powerfull artifact).

    Does Illidan wear cloth or no armour?
    Does the Challenge mode warlock armor remind you of anyone?
    Does metamorphosis seem familiar?
    Does DH concepts from Blizz artists (and lead artist) use cloth? No, they use mail/leather/cloth.
    Does the Challenge mode warlock armor remind you of anyone? Yes. A corrupted n.elf that absorbed a fel artefact and become a true demon. He was a DH before all of that. But is there any warlock-sets that remind a DH like Varedis? No.
    Does metamorphosis seem familiar? Yeah. They steal from another class. How fail are this devs from this days...But really easy to "repair".

    Is irrelevant as it's non canon.
    Ego, they can create new lore from nothing, so there are 0 problems creating Tinekres, Demon Hunters or Cheerleaders.
    Last edited by Belisaurio; 2013-09-12 at 02:43 PM.

  11. #871
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    8,016
    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    Yeah. You sacrifice your pet.
    Yes. You "kill" it

    A demon that make a pact with you
    Or is compelled to serve against its will. That demons make a "pact" with Warlocks is not a universal constant. They are enslaved. Forced to do the bidding of the Warlock. Theirs is not always a relationship based upon a "pact".

    Plus - this is all lore. Story. Background.

    Is it an actual gameplay objection which would have some actual meaning? No. Its yet another "This is how I see Warlocks" objection.

    And, as I stated, if you make the "buff" permanent - you remove any gameplay impact and make the mechanic and objection meaningless.

    DH: Melee, physical/magical, fighters, use arcane/fire energy (personally, I will change fire for fel), they are shirtless, with tatoos, they don't have eyes (training to become a DH has a high tax), they started with Illidan and the DH community is elven-related race.
    Melee? Yes
    Physical/Magical? Yes.
    Arcane/Fire? No. Its Fire/Shadow
    Shirtless, with tattoos, don't have eyes? All lore and hence irrelevant.
    Started with Illidan? Lore
    Is elven related? Again...lore.

    Warlock: Magical ranged casters, fel/fire/shadow energym they use cloth and tunics. They are "dark mages" and make pacts with demons to have more power. They have a demon pets too (more pacts) and the most popular Warlock is Gul'dan (first Orc Warlock).
    Magical? So are Demon Hunters
    Ranged Casters? Yes
    Fel/Fire/Shadow? Yes.
    Use Cloth and tunics? Yes.
    Make Pacts? Yes. And they also use compulsion or enslaveemnt mechanics.
    They have Demon Pets? Yes...and so can Demon Hunters.
    Most Popular Warlock is Gul'dan? Questionable and irrelevant.

    So...when we strip away the irrelevant lore....we get to see the actualy differences. Warlocks are ranged casters and Demon Hunters are melee.

    In no way are the same, you can look a pic from any DH concept and then any Warlock concept

    http://www.wowhead.com/transmog-set=1523


    http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items...3;117680:4+0:0

    Or try this on a NElf... http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items...838:32837&l=85

    Yeah, You Are Rakh'likh. So all characters that summoned a demon, are demon-summoners.
    ????

    I have no idea what you are talking about.

    Put simply though - if there is an absorb mechanic, Blizzard is not going to make you hunt down a demon in order to get a short term buff, nor are they going to put demons in every single zone and instance to help DH players get the buff with a minimum of fuss. Either the mechanics won't exist or be permanent (and, either way, be irrelevant), or DHs will have the ability to summon demons.

    Why? Illidan killed lot of demons, he never absorbed any of them.
    Because Blizzard isn't going to make you go to another zone simply to get a buff. It did away with Soul Shards for a reason.

    Does DH concepts from Blizz artists (and lead artist) use cloth? No, they use mail/leather/cloth.
    Can't think of any with mail. Can't think of any with leather. With cloth? Yes - every single time we se a DH. If you wnat to be totally accurate, we don't know the exact type of armor. We just know it looks like cloth.

    Does the Challenge mode warlock armor remind you of anyone? Yes. A corrupted n.elf that absorbed a fel artefact and become a true demon.
    Illidan. The archetypical Demon Hunter.

    Does metamorphosis seem familiar? Yeah. They steal from another class. How fail are this devs from this days...But really easy to "repair".
    Yes. You say Demon Hunters are Warlocks. It solves the issues with design room, it takes advantage of the Warlock overlap instead of fighting it and harming both, it embraces the design direction Blizzard has taken for the past 5 years, it brings DHs into the game and it makes use of an already existing theme, ability list and look without contradicting any canon lore.

    Ego, they can create new lore from nothing, so there are 0 problems creating Tinekres, Demon Hunters or Cheerleaders.
    Tinkers have a flavor problem. Demon Hunters design one. Of the two - the design issue is a killer. As for cheerleaders - Dance Studio is only shelved, not cancelled.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-09-12 at 03:47 PM.

  12. #872
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Beach City
    Posts
    8,778
    Quote Originally Posted by Hengwulf View Post
    That is true. Although, as far as I understand warlocks are still themselves, just imbued with demonic energies, even if taking demon form, they are still humans, while DH takes form of a real demon, another entity from Twisting Nether. Lorewise, it is different. Mechanically, in game, they both turn to demons, and yes, that is a big overlap and a problem.
    Metamorphosis turns them completely into Demons.

    It also doesn't help this Demon Hunter class concept that Illidans demon model is used for the Metamorphosis model.

  13. #873
    Or is compelled to serve against its will. That demons make a "pact" with Warlocks is not a universal constant. They are enslaved. Forced to do the bidding of the Warlock. Theirs is not always a relationship based upon a "pact".

    Plus - this is all lore. Story. Background.

    Is it an actual gameplay objection which would have some actual meaning? No. Its yet another "This is how I see Warlocks" objection.

    And, as I stated, if you make the "buff" permanent - you remove any gameplay impact and make the mechanic and objection meaningless.
    yeah that's the lore/flavour/aesthetics, whatever you call. You want to talk gameplay?
    Possible Ingame mechanics about buffs that gives your demon/demons:
    -Resource system. (really logic, cause all the character-skills are around that system, not just 1 skill like you said).
    -Stances/aspects/whatever
    -Phase/combo stage in rotations.
    -Classic passive buff (like 50% of wow buffs).
    -Totems/statue like (imprison souls/ physical jails/ wahtever you want to call).

    I'm not a Blizz designer, but it's easy to do a brainstorming. Just give that job to a professional and you willl have an awesome expression of demons used or killed and then absorbed/imprisoned skills.

    Melee? Yes
    Physical/Magical? Yes.
    Arcane/Fire? No. Its Fire/Shadow Yep. My fail. I used to thing that mana burn was arcane, but was a Priest and was shadow).
    Shirtless, with tattoos, don't have eyes? All lore and hence irrelevant. Of course not. Mages and warlocks don't wear the same. like Paladins, warriors and Dks. And DH and warlocks too, and it's really possible that DH don't wear cloth (leather/mail, we don't have the class, so the concepts seems to wear 3 different types of armour).
    Started with Illidan? Lore Yes, because gameplay-mechanics are already different (see other point).
    Is elven related? Again...lore.Yes, because gameplay-mechanics are already different (see other point).
    Magical? So are Demon Hunters And physical too. Dks use this two typs of things and are not mages.
    Ranged Casters? Yes
    Fel/Fire/Shadow? Yes.
    Use Cloth and tunics? Yes.
    Make Pacts? Yes. And they also use compulsion or enslaveemnt mechanics. Something that DH don't use.
    They have Demon Pets? Yes...and so can Demon Hunters. Nop. Already explained.
    Most Popular Warlock is Gul'dan? Questionable and irrelevant. Yes, because he is the typical warlock in WOW.
    So...when we strip away the irrelevant lore....we get to see the actualy differences. Warlocks are ranged casters and Demon Hunters are melee.
    We have different armor type (possible, only concepts), one is ranged and the other is melee, one use and summons pets and the other has a perma-demon/soul inside him (this is why they are using same element damage). So the same differences between Hunter and Warrior, they use same dmg (physical), one atack from range and the other is melee, one use pets/summons and the other smash people.

    That's a joke?
    http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/127628.jpg --->Varedis. Normal trained Demon Hunter
    http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/273219.jpg ---->Gul'dan. Classic Orc Warlock.
    they are the same? Really?

    Put simply though - if there is an absorb mechanic, Blizzard is not going to make you hunt down a demon in order to get a short term buff, nor are they going to put demons in every single zone and instance to help DH players get the buff with a minimum of fuss. Either the mechanics won't exist or be permanent (and, either way, be irrelevant), or DHs will have the ability to summon demons.
    Why you assume that? There are 0 DH that do that. Illidan took a pact with $&&" itself to take power, he didn't absorb any demon. And the most logic thing (and less worked path to go), it's a chain quest like DKs that finish with a final fight vs a Demon and take their soul (absorb, imprison, whatever...). That should give the same reasons like DKs rune system with their forge. DH don't summon and use demons, they have demon powers because they take a bad pact long ago or absorbed/imprisoned something evil inside them in his training. They can expand this in wow if they want (selling their own soul to an archdemon for example).

    Because Blizzard isn't going to make you go to another zone simply to get a buff. It did away with Soul Shards for a reason.
    Of course. You have a perma-demon thing inside you. You don't need to kill anything, you have perma-buff inside you.

    Can't think of any with mail. Can't think of any with leather. With cloth? Yes - every single time we se a DH. If you wnat to be totally accurate, we don't know the exact type of armor. We just know it looks like cloth.
    Completely agree, BUT they looks like more than leather/mail than cloth. Do you see the concepts? OR the manual from WC3? Or the page concept-web of samwise and co?

    Illidan. The archetypical Demon Hunter.
    Dh Illidan: http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/259164.jpg
    Demon Illidan: http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screen...mal/155053.jpg

    How many DH have the same look of demon-illidan? 0
    How many DH have the same look of DH illidan? All DH in wow (H NPCs and A NPCs).
    No, warlocks have 0 sets that feels like a DH, but looks like a Demon-Illidan and Dreadlords (demons).

    Yes. You say Demon Hunters are Warlocks.
    Yes. You are right. It's impossible for anybody to create a new DH class to fit a new Hero class in wow. (It's a joke).

    Tinkers have a flavor problem. Demon Hunters design one. Of the two - the design issue is a killer. As for cheerleaders - Dance Studio is only shelved, not cancelled.
    No. DH has 0 problems, and tinkerers too. Why? Because it's so easy to expand a 4skills-hero unit from WC3 in wow. If they've got problems with lore (it's not the case), they can change or expand, If they've got problems with aesthetics (not the case), they can modify them, If they've got problems with mechanics (not the case), they can change them, If there are problems with overlap (1 skill from DH), they can change/modify them, If there are overlaped theme (engineering/tinkerer), they can expand them to be different.
    Last edited by Belisaurio; 2013-09-12 at 04:29 PM.

  14. #874
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Beach City
    Posts
    8,778
    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio
    No. DH has 0 problems, and tinkerers too. Why? Because it's so easy to expand a 4skills-hero unit from WC3 in wow.
    That's pretty hard to do when all 4 of the WC3 Demon Hunter's abilities are taken by other classes. Especially when every other class based on a WC3 heroes have all of their abilities.

  15. #875
    That's pretty hard to do when all 4 of the WC3 Demon Hunter's abilities are taken by other classes. Especially when every other class based on a WC3 heroes have all of their abilities.
    Nah, You did a concept time ago without any problem. Pay a professional to do his job and wait. Easy and without any problem.

  16. #876
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    But - and this is a point you overlook - it is about the only point of similarity between the classes. The two classes otherwise have different themes, looks, feel, flavors, armors, abilities, and so on. the same cannot be said for a Warlock-DH comparison where Warlocks and DHs have the same theme which needs to be explored, DHs cannot get their traditional look because Warlocks have it, many abilities are shared between the class and the NPC models and so on. While differences in the exact toolkit exist, the main difference lies in that one is melee...and the other ranged.
    EJL
    That isn't what a Demon Hunter is, that is what a Warlock is. Demon Hunters do not summon or sacrifice demons, they literally absorb their essence, similar to the way a Blood Elf taps into them as a source of power in the lore. Demon Hunter's traditional look is also not shared at all by Warlocks, who only have one tier set that looks like Illidan. Even Warriors have an entire set that looks like Death Knights from original Naxxramas.



    On top of that, Demon Hunters don't actually use Shadow Magic, despite it being in their description. Warlocks use Curses, Banes and other afflictions, which the Demon Hunter does not. Warlocks summon multiple types of demons, the DH doesn't even summon. The only similar thing is... turning into a demon.

    So really, it parallels the Frost Mage and Frost DK almost exactly. They only share a base theme, the ability to turn into demons and use demonic magic. Outside of that, the theme, look, armor, abilities are all different. The only similarity comes when a Warlock goes into Metamorphosis, which frankly can be changed for either class to allow growth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That's pretty hard to do when all 4 of the WC3 Demon Hunter's abilities are taken by other classes. Especially when every other class based on a WC3 heroes have all of their abilities.
    You continually cite that Warlock Death Coil was not the same as Death Knight's version. By that same logic, Rogue Evasion and Warlock Immolation Aura are not the same as Demon Hunter's Evasion and Immolation. The only carry over would be Metamorphosis. But that could be completely excused by the fact that both recently added classes do not have their ultimates in the approrpriate specs. Brewmasters don't have Storm, Earth and Fire. DK's don't have Animate Dead at all.

    If you extend this to existing character classes, Paladins don't have Ressurection, Mages don't have Mass Teleport and Priestess doesn't have Starfall. It means that the concept can still carry over even if it doesn't use all 4 spells, and has similarly themed replacements instead.

  17. #877
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    So does hanging around with demons, but we see them doing that in game as well. As it is, gameplay trumps lore...always has, and the DH won't be any exception. If this absorb capacity actually exists, then the DH will need some way to easily and quickly get a demon for him to absorb its power. Hence, summoning.
    Where you got all of this from? What absorb? They don't need to do that. They have no reasons to summon demons, both lorewise and gameplay-wise. You are forcing this just so you have something to support DH = Warlock idea. Stop it.
    As for against lore and flavor - thing is, its only against the lore and flavor of how players see them. Not the actual existing in game lore.
    In the actual, existing in game lore DHs don't summon demons and their actual stated in game goals and point of existence is rather contrary to summoning demons.
    He heals and uses Holy magic. He has a different theme, different focus, different style, flavor, look, way of fighting. In fact - nothing in common except the school of magic and the healing role.
    So do DHs and Warlocks. Both use fel magic. Everything else is different.
    Does Illidan wear cloth or no armour?
    Does the Challenge mode warlock armor remind you of anyone?
    Does metamorphosis seem familiar?
    More like leather, tbh. Both in looks and his signature items (blindfold, glaives) point out to leather suer. Bare chest isn't an indication of armor type, vide that funny guy in AQ20.

    Challenge mode warlock set reminds me of a demon, and in particular of a transformed Illidan, where he ceased to be a Demon Hunter, and instead became a Betrayer, Lord of Outland, someone who controls demons, just like warlock does. If you think that BT version of Illidan is representative for DHs, then you're wrong.
    Then the mechanic is lore based and hence irrelevant as far as game and class design is concerned. Can't have it both ways. Either its a relevant mechanic....and the DH will need an ability to get them quickly and easily, which will mean summoning even if a different term is used...or its not, in which case its irrelevant and doesn't matter.
    How so? Lore says that demon is inside of him all the time, that grants him some passive effects and ability to turn into demon for a moment. I would say that is rather relevant to gameplay.
    Is irrelevant as it's non canon. Well, mostly non-canon.
    It is very relevant. Also, skipping the bit from RPG, we have Demon Hunters in WC3, we have Leotheras the Blind, we have plenty of lore that in fact DHs contain demons within themselves.

  18. #878
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    That isn't what a Demon Hunter is, that is what a Warlock is. Demon Hunters do not summon or sacrifice demons, they literally absorb their essence, similar to the way a Blood Elf taps into them as a source of power in the lore. Demon Hunter's traditional look is also not shared at all by Warlocks, who only have one tier set that looks like Illidan. Even Warriors have an entire set that looks like Death Knights from original Naxxramas.

    On top of that, Demon Hunters don't actually use Shadow Magic, despite it being in their description. Warlocks use Curses, Banes and other afflictions, which the Demon Hunter does not. Warlocks summon multiple types of demons, the DH doesn't even summon. The only similar thing is... turning into a demon.

    So really, it parallels the Frost Mage and Frost DK almost exactly. They only share a base theme, the ability to turn into demons and use demonic magic. Outside of that, the theme, look, armor, abilities are all different. The only similarity comes when a Warlock goes into Metamorphosis, which frankly can be changed for either class to allow growth.
    The absorption thing is from an RPG sourcebook. That means it's in canon limbo, neither true nor false. The only demon hunter who ever absorbed anything in canon was Illidan, who absorbed the Skull of Gul'dan. Gul'dan was not a demon. He was a warlock.

    And demon hunters do use shadow magic. Alandien. Shadowfury.

    And demon hunters do use curses. Varedis. Illidari Highlord. Curse of Flames.

    And demon hunters do summon demons. Illidan. Summon Shadow Demons.

    And don't start telling me none of the above are "real" demon hunters.

  19. #879
    Quote Originally Posted by Drilnos View Post
    The absorption thing is from an RPG sourcebook. That means it's in canon limbo, neither true nor false. The only demon hunter who ever absorbed anything in canon was Illidan, who absorbed the Skull of Gul'dan. Gul'dan was not a demon. He was a warlock.

    And demon hunters do use shadow magic. Alandien. Shadowfury.

    And demon hunters do use curses. Varedis. Illidari Highlord. Curse of Flames.

    And demon hunters do summon demons. Illidan. Summon Shadow Demons.

    And don't start telling me none of the above are "real" demon hunters.
    But they AREN'T real Demon Hunters. They are Illidari. They dropped their purpose and instead of destroying demons, they seek to control them.

  20. #880
    Quote Originally Posted by Hengwulf View Post
    But they AREN'T real Demon Hunters. They are Illidari. They dropped their purpose and instead of destroying demons, they seek to control them.
    They are. The game calls them demon hunters, every npc who refers to them calls them demon hunters. They're demon hunters. The distinction is a fan invention that Blizzard is not beholden to.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •