Thread: Tinker Class

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  1. #901
    That concept also included the abilities now firmly in the hands of Warlocks, Rogues, and the deleted abilities from Priests.
    I also included an entire spec that wouldn't work, since Blizzard has completely removed mana-stealing abilities from the game.
    My concept could never work as an actual class in the actual game.
    Create another one. I've done more complicated things with registered marks between products, that concepts were more hard than this one, because if you overlap a little, someone will send you a postcard (with a judge's sign in it).
    But talking about a class that you can do whatever you want, in your own game with your own lore? Nah, no hard, just some work.

    The Paladin ability was actually Mass Resurrection. No other class has Mass Teleport or Mass Resurrection.
    Priestesses don't have Starfall because the PotM wasn't a Priest. It was a unique NE unit that couldn't be defined by WoW's classes. That's why PotM's abilities were broken up between Hunters and Druids.
    Yes, and no.
    Paladins had mass resurrection, and was the unique form to resurrect a unite (the /inmortal mode from DKs were not permanent). In wow, you can only mass resurrect with a guild perk, and in a low rate, with other resurrecting-skills. This skills were given to other classes. And that's good. The only bad thing is that Paladins can't resurrect in combat, and was one of his main rolls in WC3 (knights+healers...hate that comp, expensive but you couldn't kill them mid game!)
    About Starfall, yes, Priests Night Elfs had "Starfall", but because of "homogenization" of classes (nobody remember that because all allied priest were dwards...that free fear!!!), they removed that skill.

    Let's keep it simple; Before the introduction of DKs and Monks, all of their corresponding WC3 abilities were open. None existed in other classes. There was Death Coil with Warlocks, but it wasn't the same spell.
    With Demon Hunters, EVERY SINGLE ABILITY is absorbed by existing classes, and those abilities are major abilities in their respective classes. So you can't just switch them around, or replace them, or remove them.
    That is a huge road block to their ability to become a WoW class.
    Yes you are right. Impossible to create a demon hunter with the same feeling? No. I find a lot of things to be improved, expanded, whatever... but hey, If you can't take some minutes and do a brainstorming of new skills after reading some info about DH, it's normal that you can't see a future for that class.
    Last edited by Belisaurio; 2013-09-12 at 08:36 PM.

  2. #902
    Quote Originally Posted by Drilnos View Post
    And again, that's not the point I was making. This isn't about what hypothetical player characters could and could not do, this is about what Demon Hunters do and do not do, in lore, and there is a post a page back stating with nary a trace of irony that Demon Hunters do not use shadow magic, do not cast curses and do not summon demons. These are all demonstrably false, with multiple counterexamples for each one. But instead of admitting that, we get a whole treatment on whether or not they were actual demon hunters or some imaginary class that a demon hunter who doesn't hunt demons falls into.

    When you change the criteria for what is and isn't a demon hunter according to your own arbitrary standards, then demon hunters don't have anything in common with warlocks. Unfortunately, we don't live in Fantasyland.
    If you're trying to pass nonstandard abilities used by nonstandard characters as a norm, you can't really expect to get any meaningful results. I don't think that trying to focus on what all available Dhs have in common, instead of some singular cases of abilities used by exceptional characters is applying arbitrary standards. Player class DH is supposed to capture the essence of what DH is, not everything every DH ever could do.

  3. #903
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again with the lore....

    Let's keep it simple; Before the introduction of DKs and Monks, all of their corresponding WC3 abilities were open. None existed in other classes. There was Death Coil with Warlocks, but it wasn't the same spell.
    By saying it wasn't the same spell, what basis do you have to say that any of the spells incorporated into WoW are the Demon Hunters?

    Warlock's Death Coil was taken from Warcraft 3 in name, icon and general effect. If you can find reason to say it was not the same spell due to mechanics, then we have no problem waiving the use of Metamorphosis and Immolation Aura (which isn't Immolation anyways). The Warcraft 3 versions are not the same mechanic, because Warcraft 3 Metamorphosis granted splash damage, increased health regeneration, and was a cooldown ability that lasted a set time instead of draining a resource. Evasion does not work the same way either, since it was a passive ability. Mana Burn has since been removed from Priests.

    It's down to one ability, and that is Metamorphosis, and as I've explained through Death Knight and Monk examples, even ultimate spells can be absent without affecting the creation or outcome of a new WoW class.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-09-12 at 08:39 PM.

  4. #904
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    By saying it wasn't the same spell, what basis do you have to say that any of the spells incorporated into WoW are the Demon Hunters?
    Because Demon Hunters in WoW had the Rogue version of Evasion, and Warlocks got Immolation aura and Metamorphosis from Illidan.

    Immolation Aura;
    http://www.wowhead.com/search?q=Aura...olation#spells


    Warlock's Death Coil was taken from Warcraft 3 in name, icon and general effect. If you can find reason to say it was not the same spell due to mechanics, then we have no problem waiving the use of Metamorphosis and Immolation Aura (which isn't Immolation anyways). The Warcraft 3 versions are not the same mechanic, because Warcraft 3 Metamorphosis granted splash damage, increased health regeneration, and was a cooldown ability that lasted a set time instead of draining a resource. Evasion does not work the same way either, since it was a passive ability. Mana Burn has since been removed from Priests.

    Warlock version of DC;

    Causes the enemy target to run in horror for 3 sec and causes X Shadow damage. The caster gains 300% of the damage caused in health. 2 minute CD
    DK version of DC WC3/WoW

    Fire a blast of unholy energy, causing X Shadow damage to an enemy target or healing X damage on a friendly Undead target.
    It didn't have the same effect at all.

    It's down to one ability, and that is Metamorphosis, and as I've explained through Death Knight and Monk examples, even ultimate spells can be absent without affecting the creation or outcome of a new WoW class.

    What? Immolation Aura, Mana Burn, and Evasion suddenly don't matter anymore? They're all gone. A Demon Hunter class can't use them because Blizzard purposely split them into other classes.

    Why would they do that? Think about that for a moment. Why would Blizzard purposely divide the Demon Hunter's core abilities, and then give Warlocks and Rogues large amounts of DH thematics? Do you honestly believe they did that to one day introduce a Demon Hunter class?

  5. #905
    And why does a Demon Hunter class need those spells? They don't. They can carry their own weight without any of those spells, because people would be familiar with the class identity regardless of what abilities they would or would not have.

    If abilities defined a class, Rogue would not exist in WoW, because there were no Rogues or Rogue abilities in Warcraft 3. Unless you are saying Rogues are Demon Hunters, Blademasters and Wardens.

  6. #906
    What? Immolation Aura, Mana Burn, and Evasion suddenly don't matter anymore? They're all gone. A Demon Hunter class can't use them because Blizzard purposely split them into other classes.
    Why would they do that? Think about that for a moment. Why would Blizzard purposely divide the Demon Hunter's core abilities, and then give Warlocks and Rogues large amounts of DH thematics? Do you honestly believe they did that to one day introduce a Demon Hunter class?
    Think about that. They are storming a lot of ideas every expansion. In BC, there were other races over the table to fit the expansion, in wrath there were other classes, and of course all other expansions too.
    Why they take the same name from a skill of a DK and give them to warlocks? Because this skill fits their theme.
    Why evasion was in rogues kit? Because this skill fits their theme.
    Why starfall was racial-skill from Night Elfs Priest? Because this skill fits their theme. And then it was removed; and why Druids has it now? Because this skill fits their theme.
    Why Metamorfosis is in Warlocks kit? Because this skill fits their theme.

    And like all this type of projects, sometime you give something to other classes because it fits really well, but sometimes you need to remove that skill because the main class have more points to acquire his own skills (starfall is the black sheep from the list). But after that, this isn't because they predicted that Demon Hunter will never be a class in wow, because that's not true. The only bad lluck that this class had, was being melee that looked to be agile (rogues), had a demon theme (Warlocks) and had Hunter (for people that see hunter like a DH) in his name. And that gives a high probability that a game with a lot of years in his back, to take his own skills and give them to other classes.
    Other "possible classes" had the same problems:
    -Warden (magician-rogue style character).
    -Dark ranger (DK/Necromancer-Hunter style character).
    -DH (Warlock-Rogue style character)-The main one that we are talking.

    Other "possible classes" had the other problems like being a profession themed:
    -Tinkerer: Engineering profession. (theme)
    -Goblin alchemist: Alchemist (theme)

    And all the other Hero unites are just races:
    -Pit Lord.
    -Naga witch.
    etc...

  7. #907
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    It's all relevant to a Playable Demon Hunter class. Those conflicts arise when faced with the overarching problem people are wary of, that being "They're too similar to Warlocks".

    If you consider lore, all Death Knight NPCs are Death Knights. The lore allows a wide range to exist, from Teron Gorefiend to Baron Rivendare to the 4 Horsemen to Arthas. The DK player class is also a Death Knight in lore. Any discussion between Death Knights and conflicts with other player classes will exclusively be tied to the player class, regardless of what any other NPC can or can not do.

    The same exists here. When we talk about Demon Hunters and lore, we are talking about what is relevant to the potential Player class, not what any NPC represents. NPCs have absolutely no bearing on a player class, and if they use Shadow magic or summon Demons, that is indicative of that NPC.

    I understand your problems with this, since the whole idea of a Demon Hunter player class is nebulous. The criteria and lore can change to suit whatever needs to make it plausible, and that seems biased. That is the point. The very concept of the Demon Hunter class does not yet exist, and is not yet defined. It is by this very reason that it should not be put up to comparison with any existing WoW class, such as saying it's too similar to Warlocks or Rogues; or that they are limited because their abilities from Warcraft 3 have been given to other classes.

    If you look at the two added classes as any example, Death Knights and Monks have no relatable NPCs that they were based off of. Their lore is entirely based on their own, separate from every existing NPC that came before them. There is no reason for Illidan or any other Demon Hunter NPC to indicate of how a Player class would be represented in the game. The class must represent its own identity, and if the issue comes into conflict with any other idea such as being too similar to Warlocks, it is plausible to change or accomodate that conflict. That is why there is plausibility to exist.
    My problem with this has nothing to do with a Demon Hunter player class. It's that you're so desperate to prove that they're dissimilar to warlocks that you're hurling the baby out with the bathwater. Take everything reminiscent of a warlock out of the class concept and you're left with something that looks nothing like a Demon Hunter but does bear an awfully suspicious resemblance to a rogue with a nasty RP habit.

    Also, Monks had no NPCs at all to base their moves off of. Death Knights, however, are an amalgamation of several Scourge mobs and NPCs, including the death knight, necromancer, crypt lord, lich, gargoyle and so on, along with a little bit of the runemaster. Dancing Rune Weapon came from trash mobs in Naxx, as did Bone Shield. They got Death and Decay from the Lich, Unholy Blight from the Crypt Lord, Asphyxiate from Deathbringer Saurfang, Remorseless Winter and Soul Reaper directly from the Lich King boss fight. Oh yes, and they had Army of the Dead and Death Pact in common with Baron Rivendare, as well as what became their auras. These are only examples. Granted, there is a lot in there that's original. But to say that they have no similarities to anything that was already in the game is just not true.

  8. #908
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    And why does a Demon Hunter class need those spells? They don't. They can carry their own weight without any of those spells, because people would be familiar with the class identity regardless of what abilities they would or would not have.
    They same reason Monks needed Brewmaster abilities. That is the Warcraft version of that class. If they don't have those abilities, then they have no connection to the game universe.

    If abilities defined a class, Rogue would not exist in WoW, because there were no Rogues or Rogue abilities in Warcraft 3. Unless you are saying Rogues are Demon Hunters, Blademasters and Wardens.
    Oh yes there were;

    http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...ts.shtml#rogue

    Its abilities; Hide and Evasion. The Assassin version had Envenomed Weapons.

    They combined those units with other units and abilities to create an Assassin/thief class.

  9. #909
    Quote Originally Posted by Drilnos View Post
    My problem with this has nothing to do with a Demon Hunter player class. It's that you're so desperate to prove that they're dissimilar to warlocks that you're hurling the baby out with the bathwater. Take everything reminiscent of a warlock out of the class concept and you're left with something that looks nothing like a Demon Hunter but does bear an awfully suspicious resemblance to a rogue with a nasty RP habit.

    Also, Monks had no NPCs at all to base their moves off of. Death Knights, however, are an amalgamation of several Scourge mobs and NPCs, including the death knight, necromancer, crypt lord, lich, gargoyle and so on, along with a little bit of the runemaster. Dancing Rune Weapon came from trash mobs in Naxx, as did Bone Shield. They got Death and Decay from the Lich, Unholy Blight from the Crypt Lord, Asphyxiate from Deathbringer Saurfang, Remorseless Winter and Soul Reaper directly from the Lich King boss fight. Oh yes, and they had Army of the Dead and Death Pact in common with Baron Rivendare, as well as what became their auras. These are only examples. Granted, there is a lot in there that's original. But to say that they have no similarities to anything that was already in the game is just not true.
    Baron Rivendare draws from the same source that the Player DK does. That is why their abilities are similar; just as why the current Demon Hunter NPCs and Playable Warlocks are similar, they draw from the same sources - Warcraft 3 Demon Hunter.

    It's not a matter of bending backwards to prove dissimilarity, it's advocating plausibility through the fact that the core concept of any new class is free form, and can be altered to accomodate any conflicting situation. Would Playable Demon Hunters still relate to the NPCs? Yes. Does this mean they have to use Shadow spells or summon demons which conflict with the Warlock class? No.

  10. #910
    Also, Monks had no NPCs at all to base their moves off of. Death Knights, however, are an amalgamation of several Scourge mobs and NPCs, including the death knight, necromancer, crypt lord, lich, gargoyle and so on, along with a little bit of the runemaster. Dancing Rune Weapon came from trash mobs in Naxx, as did Bone Shield. They got Death and Decay from the Lich, Unholy Blight from the Crypt Lord, Asphyxiate from Deathbringer Saurfang, Remorseless Winter and Soul Reaper directly from the Lich King boss fight. Oh yes, and they had Army of the Dead and Death Pact in common with Baron Rivendare, as well as what became their auras. These are only examples. Granted, there is a lot in there that's original. But to say that they have no similarities to anything that was already in the game is just not true.
    There were monks in SM (woth warrior bleeds!!)
    And talking about DKs: Yeah, they took some skills from scourge armys and they had an awesome raid full of Dks and friends to steal all his abilities too, but logically they take only the skills that fit their theme. (see my other post).
    They can do the same with DH and Black Temple. A lot of mobs (infernals, shyvaras, fel hunters, fel-orcs/hunters/whatever, etc...) and do the same. If the 4 basic skills are taken, maybe they need to replace them with other, more unique, because If they give his abilities to other classes, it's because they are not unique and they fit other classes too. Like Starfall and Death coil. But I can't see the Black Temple to have lot of skills that could fit the DH, maybe I'm wrong.

    They same reason Monks needed Brewmaster abilities. That is the Warcraft version of that class. If they don't have those abilities, then they have no connection to the game universe.
    Monks in SM didn't have any Brewmaster abilities. Why? Because drunken monks don't fit a religious bulwark of fanatics (or yes XDD).
    Last edited by Belisaurio; 2013-09-12 at 09:40 PM.

  11. #911
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    Monks in SM didn't have any Brewmaster abilities. Why? Because drunken monks don't fit a religious bulwark of fanatics (or yes XDD).
    Pandaren Monks. We were never going to play as SM Monks because they're bad guys.

    Plus the whole WC3 thing....
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-09-12 at 09:55 PM.

  12. #912
    Pandaren Monks. We were never going to play as SM Monks because they're bad guys.
    They are Human Monks. And we can play human monks with the same abilities of Pandaren Monks.
    But a Human Monk in a religious fanatic cathedral, drinking alcohol and fighting in a drunk-state? That don't fit anything...

  13. #913
    Quote Originally Posted by Hengwulf View Post
    If you're trying to pass nonstandard abilities used by nonstandard characters as a norm, you can't really expect to get any meaningful results. I don't think that trying to focus on what all available Dhs have in common, instead of some singular cases of abilities used by exceptional characters is applying arbitrary standards. Player class DH is supposed to capture the essence of what DH is, not everything every DH ever could do.
    In terms of the pool of characters to draw from in the games, about 99% of them are Illidari and 100% of them received direct or indirect training from Illidan himself. Of the ones that don't follow Illidan, one of them is a huge Illidan fan anyway, one is a conscientious objector, one had felhounds for pets, one is a ghost, and the last one might not even be a demon hunter.

    There's about as many of them in-game as there are bards, and they still have warlock abilities.

  14. #914
    There's about as many of them in-game as there are bards, and they still have warlock abilities.
    There are a more NPCs that are demon hunters, bosses included and final chain-quest too. Some of them they didn't have any abilities (trash mobs), some of them had rogue abilities, other ones had warrior and other ones had warlock abilities. The most common to see from lore-characters or Demon Hunters with a true name is the warlocks abilities. Why? Because like I said in the other posts, they fit better than other abilities.

  15. #915
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    The Demon Hunter was absorbed into the Warlock and Rogue classes. Rogues got the melee, blindfold, warglaives, and Evasion. Warlocks got the Demonic abilities.

    Design space for DHs is long gone. Everything demon-based from WC3 got shipped over to Warlocks.

  16. #916
    Quote Originally Posted by Drilnos View Post
    In terms of the pool of characters to draw from in the games, about 99% of them are Illidari and 100% of them received direct or indirect training from Illidan himself. Of the ones that don't follow Illidan, one of them is a huge Illidan fan anyway, one is a conscientious objector, one had felhounds for pets, one is a ghost, and the last one might not even be a demon hunter.

    There's about as many of them in-game as there are bards, and they still have warlock abilities.
    So you look at WC Demon Hunters, Altruis, Feronas, Loramus and the other guy, and you see warlock? I see cross between warlock and rogue, which is neither. Felhound pets don't help my argument, though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The Demon Hunter was absorbed into the Warlock and Rogue classes. Rogues got the melee, blindfold, warglaives, and Evasion. Warlocks got the Demonic abilities.

    Design space for DHs is long gone. Everything demon-based from WC3 got shipped over to Warlocks.
    Paladin is redundant with Warrior and Priest classes ingame. Warriors got the melee, plate armor and 2 handers. Priests got the healing and the Holy Light.

    It doesn't work like that.

  17. #917
    The Demon Hunter was absorbed into the Warlock and Rogue classes. Rogues got the melee, blindfold, warglaives, and Evasion. Warlocks got the Demonic abilities.
    Design space for DHs is long gone. Everything demon-based from WC3 got shipped over to Warlocks.
    1 skill was absorbed by Rogue (happened before). Two skills were absorbed by Warlock (happened before). 1 skill was removed.
    So, 3/4 skills are still used, design space is not gone.

    But I completely understand people that don't see DH like a possible class.
    Demon hunters can't exist in wow because:
    1-They have 3/4 abilities in WC3 already in other classes, so impossible to do anything about that.
    2-Are warlocks.
    3-Are rogues.
    4-Are hunters (?).
    5-Use abilities already in game from other classes, ergo, they overlap with this classes.
    6-Use the same type of dmg than other classes already in game, so they overlap thematically.
    7-etc...

    /joke off

    And one more thing, what happened if 4/4 abilities are already in game? Nothing, because If you want to implement that class in wow, you can, doesn't matter how, but with time, you can.

  18. #918
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    1 skill was absorbed by Rogue (happened before). Two skills were absorbed by Warlock (happened before). 1 skill was removed.
    So, 3/4 skills are still used, design space is not gone.

    But I completely understand people that don't see DH like a possible class.
    Demon hunters can't exist in wow because:
    1-They have 3/4 abilities in WC3 already in other classes, so impossible to do anything about that.
    2-Are warlocks.
    3-Are rogues.
    4-Are hunters (?).
    5-Use abilities already in game from other classes, ergo, they overlap with this classes.
    6-Use the same type of dmg than other classes already in game, so they overlap thematically.
    7-etc...

    /joke off

    And one more thing, what happened if 4/4 abilities are already in game? Nothing, because If you want to implement that class in wow, you can, doesn't matter how, but with time, you can.
    How ridiculous. You guys are acting like this is all some sort of accident. You seem to forget that Blizzard did this. This is all by design. Again, ask yourselves why Blizzard would purposely move DH abilities into other classes, not introduce DHs as a playable class during a DH-themed expansion, give Warlocks the signature Demon Hunter ability, give Warlocks Illidan themed abilities, talents, and armor, introduce another leather wearing agility class, etc? Because they never had any intention of ever introducing the Demon Hunter as a WoW class.

    That reality is so blatant, that it blows my mind that you guys will purposely ignore it and continue on with these asinine arguments thread after thread after thread.

    Let's just put it this way; Demon Hunters wear leather in WoW. We know this because the Cursed Vision of Sageras is leather. Blizzard isn't going to release another leather wearing melee class after introducing Monks.

    It isn't happening.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-09-12 at 11:20 PM.

  19. #919
    Quote Originally Posted by Drilnos View Post
    In terms of the pool of characters to draw from in the games, about 99% of them are Illidari and 100% of them received direct or indirect training from Illidan himself. Of the ones that don't follow Illidan, one of them is a huge Illidan fan anyway, one is a conscientious objector, one had felhounds for pets, one is a ghost, and the last one might not even be a demon hunter.

    There's about as many of them in-game as there are bards, and they still have warlock abilities.
    Meaning what? What is your ultimate point bringing up npcs? That they are few a d far between and overlap with warlocks? They are npcs. That is all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    How ridiculous. You guys are acting like this is all some sort of accident. You seem to forget that Blizzard did this. This is all by design. Again, ask yourselves why Blizzard would purposely move DH abilities into other classes, not introduce DHs as a playable class during a DH-themed expansion, give Warlocks the signature Demon Hunter ability, give Warlocks Illidan themed abilities, talents, and armor, introduce another leather wearing
    agility class, etc? Because they never had any intention of ever introducing the Demon Hunter as a WoW class.

    That reality is so blatant, that it blows my mind that you guys will purposely ignore it and continue on with these asinine arguments thread after thread after thread.

    Let's just put it this way; Demon Hunters wear leather in WoW. We know this because the Cursed Vision of Sageras is leather. Blizzard isn't going to release another leather wearing melee class after introducing Monks.

    It isn't happening.
    Cursed vision is Rogue, Druid and Monk gear. Demon hunter class could be mail. No limit exists because the class does not exist.

  20. #920
    I like the prospect of a Tinker. I just like the prospect of a Demon Hunter more.

    I'm currently working on a huge document detailing a Demon Hunter class, describing their spells, specs, stat uses, passives, talents, glyphs etc, but I am looking forward to writing up a Tinker document afterwards and seeing what you guys feel about it.

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