Thread: Tinker Class

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  1. #841
    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    No. Weapons are added over the playable skeleton without any interaction or movement (no skeleton for weapons or armour). And the skeleton has an already "slot" to put this models (over the hands of the playable-skeleton). Other items like shoulders, helmets, capes, etc... function the same way.
    All the animations or movement in a weapon model are not skeleton-animations, are new glowing textures/particles/animated textures/etc... that exists in the weapon model (because they don't have any skeleton).

    For a "tinkerers-backpack" we need a new skeleton with his completely new moves, and then put over an another playable-skeleton. So, 2 independent skeletons moving at the same time at the same position (attached from their backs). Not hard, but something new in wow-terms for a playable race.
    There have been a fair number of weapons that used animations that an animated texture could not pull off, from the Finkle's Lava Dredger with its rotating gear all the way back in Molten Core to the current SoO weapons. Examples:

    http://www.wowhead.com/news=218616/p...er:3:125881:21
    This axe has floaty bits that wave around in the air. That's a skeleton.

    http://www.wowhead.com/news=218616/p...er:3:124225:21
    This axe has eyes on it that widen and narrow. The eyelids are not textures, they're raised from the surface, and they move. Skeleton.

    http://www.wowhead.com/news=218616/p...er:3:125122:21
    Mace with rotating drill head. The drill threads are raised. Skeleton.

    http://www.wowhead.com/news=218616/p...er:3:124557:15
    One of the bows. Like all bows it has pull and release animations. Skeleton.

    http://www.wowhead.com/news=218616/p...er:3:125384:14
    Shield with a mouth and tongue that wave around. Skeleton.

    And I can think of a few helms and shoulderpieces with obvious skeleton animations as well. Warlock tier 14, druid tier 15.
    Last edited by Drilnos; 2013-09-11 at 09:31 PM.

  2. #842
    It's possible that they would add the backpacks, but it would also conflict with capes. I guess it would be a replacement for capes then.

    Also the backpack would conflict with some mounts, such as with the flying machines. It would have to be disabled for those.

    I think it would add an interesting aesthetic to the class if they were to implement it, you would be able to immediately distinguish a Tinker from any other class. While it would definitely be cool, I can also see it being a major distraction. A whimsical distraction

  3. #843
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    It's possible that they would add the backpacks, but it would also conflict with capes. I guess it would be a replacement for capes then.

    Also the backpack would conflict with some mounts, such as with the flying machines. It would have to be disabled for those.

    I think it would add an interesting aesthetic to the class if they were to implement it, you would be able to immediately distinguish a Tinker from any other class. While it would definitely be cool, I can also see it being a major distraction. A whimsical distraction
    I'm not entirely convinced about the whole backpack arm idea, but if they did it, they would probably add an aesthetic toggle spell like the Worgen Two Forms ability. Always on in combat, always disabled on mounts, you can choose to hide/show it any other time. If this was the case it would most likely fold/unfold out from the belt, like the goblin gadgets in their starting zone.
    Last edited by Drilnos; 2013-09-11 at 09:42 PM.

  4. #844
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    It's possible that they would add the backpacks, but it would also conflict with capes. I guess it would be a replacement for capes then.

    Also the backpack would conflict with some mounts, such as with the flying machines. It would have to be disabled for those.

    I think it would add an interesting aesthetic to the class if they were to implement it, you would be able to immediately distinguish a Tinker from any other class. While it would definitely be cool, I can also see it being a major distraction. A whimsical distraction
    when you equip arm-packs or get inside a steam suit you will enter a "form" game-wise. like how druids enter bear forms and cat forms. in order to mount you must first leave your form.

  5. #845
    There have been a fair number of weapons that used animations that an animated texture could not pull off, from the Finkle's Lava Dredger with its rotating gear all the way back in Molten Core to the current SoO weapons. Examples:
    Non of this weapons has an animated-skeleton.
    They are created using a polygonal-model (not skeleton), and then animate some parts of the model. You can use this method using textures (eye moving from the axe), static particles (the little crystals from the yellow axe), some glowing effects (enchants), etc... but you are just "decorating" the weapon, not creating an skeleton to move some parts.
    The shoulders that has animated effects function the same way.

    But we are talking about using two skeletons in the same character. E.g: Two characters, one over the other, and move independent, but function like one character. Of course one of this characters should't have the same number of animations from the other one (because one should be the backpack, and the other one the character).

    edit:
    aren't mounts and riders 2 different skeletons attached together and moving at the same time at the same position?
    That's what I was talking. Two models that function like one.
    But with animated moves from the character's part (because he only has emotion-moves now).
    Last edited by Belisaurio; 2013-09-11 at 09:58 PM.

  6. #846
    Hey tinker fans, have any of you tried this MMO out yet? It may be right up your alley:

    Black Gold Online
    http://bg.snailgame.com/

  7. #847
    Quote Originally Posted by banestalker View Post
    when you equip arm-packs or get inside a steam suit you will enter a "form" game-wise. like how druids enter bear forms and cat forms. in order to mount you must first leave your form.
    Druids bear form doesn't exactly take up any more visual space than a tanky character in plate would. This would be visually distracting on the level of hunters using dinosaurs with a size booster. Any time you group together, you'll be seeing multiple tinkers arms all up in your face. Not saying this is a problem that can't be worked around or gotten used to, but it's still distracting.

  8. #848
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Druids bear form doesn't exactly take up any more visual space than a tanky character in plate would. This would be visually distracting on the level of hunters using dinosaurs with a size booster. Any time you group together, you'll be seeing multiple tinkers arms all up in your face. Not saying this is a problem that can't be worked around or gotten used to, but it's still distracting.
    Doubtful, since most Tinkers would be fighting from range. IMO, I believe only the Tank spec would be Melee.

  9. #849
    Even range have to move in for certain mechanics. You will always have situations where people have to bunch up. I'm pretty sure there will be more than one Tinker at a time as well.

  10. #850
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Even range have to move in for certain mechanics. You will always have situations where people have to bunch up. I'm pretty sure there will be more than one Tinker at a time as well.
    Yeah, but I don't see how a hammer tank would take up visual space. They aren't super-massive objects like the Devilsaurs. If anything, they're just an extra pair of arms sticking out of a backpack.

  11. #851
    Just look at all the links you've provided in your own examples. Every backpack is twice the size of the character itself.

  12. #852
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Just look at all the links you've provided in your own examples. Every backpack is twice the size of the character itself.
    Conceptual art says hello. I couldn't imagine the hammer tank being much larger than the Warglaives of Azzinoth on a characters back.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-09-11 at 11:28 PM.

  13. #853
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    But what exactly is the Demon Hunter's relationship with demons? Is it fundamentally the same as the Warlock's relationship with demons?

    The answer is no.
    The question is...does it really matter?

    A Warlock summons a demon , sacrifices it, absorbs its power and then fights bad guys. If Blizzard canonises the Demon Huntersa bilityt oa bsorb demon power - where is the difference?

    What's more....if Blizzard does canonise this ability, game mechanics will insist that he be able to summon a demon, will likely insist that he have a selection available to him for variety in both effect and look and will limit his selection of demons to a handful. Why? Because you can't have a meaningful buff without a way to activate it and Blizzard sure ain't going to populate every zone with demons.

    Why can not a Warlock be someone who deliberately risks his own soul to fight fire with fire by turning demon against demon? Why can a Warlock not have a branch of magic that allows him to focus all that power into melee combat.

    You see a Warlocks relationship with demons as fundamentally different from that of a Warlock.

    But that assumption is based on your own vision on how Demon Hunters act and behave. Its based on your assumption over how and why both Warlocks and Demon Hunters act and behave.

    In short, that assumption is based upon nothing more than your own personal desire as to how each class should act.

    Such assumptions, personal backstories, motivations and so on have played no role in class design before. And even if your assumptions were correct, what does it matter? How does it affect gameplay?

    It doesn't. The gameplay difference between a Warlock sacrificing a demon for power and a Demon Hunter killing one for power doesn't exist. Both are going to have to have the ability to summon a demon, both are going to have to have the ability to gain a buff through killing it.

    Now - you want to show that standalone demon hunters are plausible? You need to show a gameplay reason to justify a separate design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Why would it be off the table? It gives the Tinker a visual that makes it different than other classes, its faithful to the original WC3 design, it gives you a "mecha" without having to drive around in a vehicle, and it looks cool.

    Its also perfectly within Blizzard's ability to pull off.
    Its also likely too whimsical, too silly to be popular. Its a pair of giant hands.It does not look "cool". It looks ridiculous. It's always looked ridiculous and is part of the light hearted system that Blizzard really needs to get rid of to make a tech themed class viable as a player unit.

    The class is flexible enough and has enough potential for a unique look and flavor if its own that Blizzard doesn't need to make sue of such equipment.

    EJL

  14. #854
    Without citing any source of lore or theme, please explain to be me the difference between Mages using ranged Frost spells and Death Knights using ranged Frost spells, and why they are not the same class.

    Does relationship matter? Of course it does, it is your only argument separating the difference between Warlocks and Demon Hunters. Mages and DK's use Frost spells in differently, deriving it from different sources and manipulating it in different ways. The same plausibly exists between Demon Hunters and Warlocks, since Demon Hunters do not actually summon or borrow Demonic powers, they literally absorb and redirect it. If you say that it doesn't matter, then by that same logic, Mages and Death Knights could be the same because they cast Frost spells.

  15. #855
    A Warlock summons a demon , sacrifices it, absorbs its power and then fights bad guys. If Blizzard canonises the Demon Huntersa bilityt oa bsorb demon power - where is the difference?
    But warlocks don't absorb demon powers. They use demon magic (not powers like cunning or controlling races or corrupting entire races), they summon demons (make a pact with them), and enslave demons.

    Why can not a Warlock be someone who deliberately risks his own soul to fight fire with fire by turning demon against demon? Why can a Warlock not have a branch of magic that allows him to focus all that power into melee combat.
    Why can not priest be someone who sacrifice his own holy spells to do damage and not heal? Why can Priest not have a branch of magic that allows him to focus all that power into melee combat?

    Yes, they take all that and give it to Paladins (with different lore, mechanics and aesthetics). They can do the same with DH.

    It doesn't. The gameplay difference between a Warlock sacrificing a demon for power and a Demon Hunter killing one for power doesn't exist. Both are going to have to have the ability to summon a demon, both are going to have to have the ability to gain a buff through killing it.
    You are right here:
    Warlock: Ranged magical caster using summons.
    DH: Melee magical/physical user.

    P.D: I'm not understanding why DH should have any summon ability.
    Last edited by Belisaurio; 2013-09-11 at 11:58 PM.

  16. #856
    This is pretty much the whole DH as 4th spec argument. Everyone that is trying to push it as a good idea don't really know what a Demon Hunter is. They know what a Warlock is. They project the idea of the Warlock onto the Demon Hunter, address the title only by name, and then say it fits in seamlessly as a 4th spec.

    Well of course it would fit in seamlessly, you're just taking the idea of a Warlock and attaching it to the same class.

  17. #857
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    The question is...does it really matter?

    A Warlock summons a demon , sacrifices it, absorbs its power and then fights bad guys. If Blizzard canonises the Demon Huntersa bilityt oa bsorb demon power - where is the difference?

    What's more....if Blizzard does canonise this ability, game mechanics will insist that he be able to summon a demon, will likely insist that he have a selection available to him for variety in both effect and look and will limit his selection of demons to a handful. Why? Because you can't have a meaningful buff without a way to activate it and Blizzard sure ain't going to populate every zone with demons.

    Why can not a Warlock be someone who deliberately risks his own soul to fight fire with fire by turning demon against demon? Why can a Warlock not have a branch of magic that allows him to focus all that power into melee combat.

    You see a Warlocks relationship with demons as fundamentally different from that of a Warlock.

    But that assumption is based on your own vision on how Demon Hunters act and behave. Its based on your assumption over how and why both Warlocks and Demon Hunters act and behave.

    In short, that assumption is based upon nothing more than your own personal desire as to how each class should act.

    Such assumptions, personal backstories, motivations and so on have played no role in class design before. And even if your assumptions were correct, what does it matter? How does it affect gameplay?

    It doesn't. The gameplay difference between a Warlock sacrificing a demon for power and a Demon Hunter killing one for power doesn't exist. Both are going to have to have the ability to summon a demon, both are going to have to have the ability to gain a buff through killing it.

    Now - you want to show that standalone demon hunters are plausible? You need to show a gameplay reason to justify a separate design.
    Ever seen the DHs in WC3 or Leotheras the Blind fight in SSC? DHs have demons absorbed permanently, not for a bit, but for lifetime, bound within their bodies. Normally they are just using this demon as a source of power, but still for their own body, but sometimes they let the demon form take over the NE form, still staying in control ofc (or not, like poor Leo).

    To give an example, Warlock is a hunter with wolf pet, but DH is like a worgen, althought it is still bit inaccurate, since demon is still another being, only stripped of his physical form unless during the metamorphosis.

  18. #858
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hengwulf View Post
    Ever seen the DHs in WC3 or Leotheras the Blind fight in SSC? DHs have demons absorbed permanently, not for a bit, but for lifetime, bound within their bodies. Normally they are just using this demon as a source of power, but still for their own body, but sometimes they let the demon form take over the NE form, still staying in control ofc (or not, like poor Leo).

    To give an example, Warlock is a hunter with wolf pet, but DH is like a worgen, althought it is still bit inaccurate, since demon is still another being, only stripped of his physical form unless during the metamorphosis.
    Yeah, but Warlocks can transform themselves into demons. With Dark Apotheosis they can be demons permanently. So essentially, they can be like the Worgen AND the hunter.

  19. #859
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, but Warlocks can transform themselves into demons. With Dark Apotheosis they can be demons permanently. So essentially, they can be like the Worgen AND the hunter.
    That is true. Although, as far as I understand warlocks are still themselves, just imbued with demonic energies, even if taking demon form, they are still humans, while DH takes form of a real demon, another entity from Twisting Nether. Lorewise, it is different. Mechanically, in game, they both turn to demons, and yes, that is a big overlap and a problem.

  20. #860
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Druids bear form doesn't exactly take up any more visual space than a tanky character in plate would. This would be visually distracting on the level of hunters using dinosaurs with a size booster. Any time you group together, you'll be seeing multiple tinkers arms all up in your face. Not saying this is a problem that can't be worked around or gotten used to, but it's still distracting.
    a very valid point. it can be fixed by distancing the camera a little bit, no im not trying to joke or make fun of you.

    Tauren players have different camera distance than Gnomes. if you use the gnome camera on tauren you can only see his/her legs, same thing with Tinkers when they entera form the camera can distance itself automatically (if the game-engine decides that your camera is too close to the character.)

    these mechanical hands can be bigger on Gnomes/Goblins/Dwarves and smaller on humans/Forsaken/Blood Elves (for example humans can have only one mechanical hand similar to tech marine mechano-arm in Warhammer 40k, and their mechanical hand can be packed/bended I don't know the correct english word for that but it does not have to flap around in the air like the goblin concept mechano-arm.)

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