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  1. #1

    Question 5.4 Crit rogues?

    Is crit rogues gonna be viable in 5.4?
    My friend was trying it out on the ptr, and it looked like it was way better than mastery. (this was on dummy)

  2. #2
    The new 2pc makes crit better than it is currently. All our secondaries will end up being nearly the same value. Use ShC for gearing.

  3. #3
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    Crit will be better for sublety at least in PvP due to the secondary stat scaling and 10% nerf on eviscerate. Tbh I prefer crit above mastery any time of the day anyways xD

  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire intrinsc's Avatar
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    Askmr.robot is telling me to go full crit and ShC is still bonerific for haste. I'm still waiting on a simulation to finish to get more accurate stat weights. It just seems crazy.

  5. #5
    Here is how you fix your predicament. Go to ShC, load your character, go to the advanced tab, profit.
    Dropndestroy | i7-3770k 4.6Ghz | EVGA GTX 680 SC Signature+ SLI | ASUS Maximus V Formula | G.Skill 16gb 2400 | AX850

  6. #6
    Stood in the Fire intrinsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropndestroyrr View Post
    Here is how you fix your predicament. Go to ShC, load your character, go to the advanced tab, profit.
    They are all so close in ShC. Simcraft also returned me similar results between crit, hasted, and mastery. Seeing as mastery provides me with more solid, predictable returns, I think I will stick with that and keep an eye on it with each gear upgrade.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by intrinsc View Post
    Askmr.robot is telling me to go full crit and ShC is still bonerific for haste. I'm still waiting on a simulation to finish to get more accurate stat weights. It just seems crazy.
    AMR's default weights have never been all that good especially when things are as variable as they are now, if you want to use AMR you really need to use some other tool to get stat weights. Also it isn't just ShadowCraft that thinks haste is good, SimCraft was recommending balanced haste mastery slightly favoring haste in 5.2/3 just like ShadowCraft. I haven't checked the 5.4 version yet but the assassination model hasn't changed so I suspect they will be in pretty close agreement again.
    Fierydemise
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  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire intrinsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    AMR's default weights have never been all that good especially when things are as variable as they are now, if you want to use AMR you really need to use some other tool to get stat weights. Also it isn't just ShadowCraft that thinks haste is good, SimCraft was recommending balanced haste mastery slightly favoring haste in 5.2/3 just like ShadowCraft. I haven't checked the 5.4 version yet but the assassination model hasn't changed so I suspect they will be in pretty close agreement again.
    Simcraft gave me these values:

    http://i.imgur.com/kUn1wfz.jpg

    I think I want to the reforge plot for all 3 secondary stats, though.

  9. #9
    I'm really liking how close they are, and I'm loving the option to force shadowcraft to value, say, M>C>H.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by intrinsc View Post
    Simcraft gave me these values:

    http://i.imgur.com/kUn1wfz.jpg

    I think I want to the reforge plot for all 3 secondary stats, though.
    Thanks for those been meaning to run them but haven't had time. It appears that SimCraft once again basically agrees with ShadowCraft on assassination modeling which is always heartening.
    Fierydemise
    The Horsemen-US 25 (25 man). 9 Hours per Week.
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  11. #11
    In Pve it might be viable I think

  12. #12
    just cant trust any kind of simDPS right now

    - - - Updated - - -

    i think that they could be out of date cuz' of the patch change... dunno, but i'm staying with the haste > mastery > crit until I feel its trustable

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by assaris View Post
    just cant trust any kind of simDPS right now
    How do you figure? Most of us rely on sims and spreadsheets to make an informed decision early in the tier.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    How do you figure? Most of us rely on sims and spreadsheets to make an informed decision early in the tier.
    I say this a lot but its worth repeating because it is a big deal, both SimCraft and ShadowCraft, two independently developed tools, agree for the most part on rogue dps priorities. The chances of this coming about through sheer chance if both tools were incorrect is quite low.
    Fierydemise
    The Horsemen-US 25 (25 man). 9 Hours per Week.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by assaris View Post
    just cant trust any kind of simDPS right now

    - - - Updated - - -

    i think that they could be out of date cuz' of the patch change... dunno, but i'm staying with the haste > mastery > crit until I feel its trustable
    \

    They are all (ShC and SimC) as up-to-date as possible.
    Dropndestroy | i7-3770k 4.6Ghz | EVGA GTX 680 SC Signature+ SLI | ASUS Maximus V Formula | G.Skill 16gb 2400 | AX850

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    I say this a lot but its worth repeating because it is a big deal, both SimCraft and ShadowCraft, two independently developed tools, agree for the most part on rogue dps priorities. The chances of this coming about through sheer chance if both tools were incorrect is quite low.
    Yeah I'm wondering what leads to the mindset that spreadsheets and sims would be wrong at the beginning of a tier. If there were a huge mechanical overhaul (expansion) I could see it, but between tiers? I'm wondering where the viewpoint comes from.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    I say this a lot but its worth repeating because it is a big deal, both SimCraft and ShadowCraft, two independently developed tools, agree for the most part on rogue dps priorities. The chances of this coming about through sheer chance if both tools were incorrect is quite low.
    It's not so much that I think they're incorrect as it's that I think that Sims are built for on-paper fights.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Yeah I'm wondering what leads to the mindset that spreadsheets and sims would be wrong at the beginning of a tier. If there were a huge mechanical overhaul (expansion) I could see it, but between tiers? I'm wondering where the viewpoint comes from.
    It took quite a long time before combat had sane modelling, and all that took was a set bonus. It's not entirely uncommon for a new tier to be unsupported, or for some important effect not to be modeled. Another good example is the RPPM trinkets, though in this case it was on Blizzard, as they repeatedly tweaked and twizzled the effects, to the point where it's actually difficult to even remember the timescale of RPPM things (original, bad luck protection, tweaks to that, tweak to haste affecting it, something else, most of tier, subsequent changes that just happened), and will be impossible in a year.

    Also, there was, I recall, a point where shadowcraft updated and suddenly haste was my best stat, for instance.


    So I can see being a bit cautious. Basically, Blizzard has offered numerous adjustments- some via hotfix today, like the metagem change- that will modify our dps for good or bad, by a lot or by a little. It's legit to wonder if the tools have been updated etc., especially if you don't follow fiery around and nom up his posts like pacman :P

  19. #19
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    On ShC, if I put in reforges/gems/etc it will tell me to go all in on crit. If I don't change a single thing and just reclick those two buttons, it then suggests mastery/haste balance that we've had. Fun little game it's playing I'm just sticking with mastery/haste for the time being. It's been working fine for me throughout the first 8-9 bosses.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerycho View Post
    On ShC, if I put in reforges/gems/etc it will tell me to go all in on crit. If I don't change a single thing and just reclick those two buttons, it then suggests mastery/haste balance that we've had. Fun little game it's playing I'm just sticking with mastery/haste for the time being. It's been working fine for me throughout the first 8-9 bosses.
    Are you seeing a huge DPS difference between reforges? It may be that the two stat settings are VERY close in value and a patchwerk fight best supports something between the two.

    Verain- that's fair, although that had to do with some big mechanical changes (like we normally see between expansions).

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