1. #1

    Need Help on my guild Dps

    Hi,

    My guild is kind of casual raiding guild and we just killed Normal Leishen a month ago which is kind of slow.

    Actually I have a question, when I look at those videos people post on Youtube, they can pull 150k+ on Leishen with pre-pot but without Timewarp for the first 30sec and when they killed Leishen their dps are 100k+. From their Health pool, I think their item level should be around 510 - 515.

    But in my guild, most of our dps are around ilvl520 - 535 but our highest is only 110k and lowest is only 80k. Here is the Combat Log of our raid.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-mx8h0gnyq5uwb086/ <Jinrokh to Dark Animus>
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-vm245lgy4ddzaw3v/ <Dark Animus to Leishen>

    Can any pro player here mind to analyze on what are the mistakes that we are making for those low dps?

    Hereby I link all the characters that take part in the raid. Perhaps the way we gem and reforge is wrong.

    Tank: Sangrefria, Xuankong

    Heal: Alyenna, Estelmist, Lorashna

    Dps: Nekrogg, Agalla, Dussith, Marche, Ihearttrade, Starstriker

    Thank you

  2. #2
    Just look at buff / debuff uptimes and cooldown usage.

    Using the mage as an example on Durumu.
    1) 72% uptime on invokers energy. It's 15% less damage if you lose the buff. The buff wasn't active for almost 1/3 of the fight.
    2) Nether tempest uptime was about the same at 74%. More damage lost.
    3) Used alter time and Icy Veins once in 7 minutes. Should have used them 3 times.

    The mage should use a tracker for stuff like this such as "tell me when".

    Next he needs to use his proc's 34 brainfreeze procs and 11 of them were wasted since he fired off 24 frostfire bolts.

  3. #3
    First of all. Few of your guilds DPS chars are way above hit cap, which currently is 7.5% Anything above that value is just wasted stat, unless your DW, but even in that case it's not worth to go past that point. In some cases though this might be because of the bad itemization.
    Your mage shouldn't really use Unerring Vision of Lei Shen, it is just bad for mages and generally bad to everyone who don't use something to track the proc. You dont get really any use out of it, if you don't react to the proc. Refreshing dots and such while its up.

    Also I noticed that almost none in your raid is using Potions. Like potion of Jade Serpent. Also is your raid aware that you could use potion twice on fights? Get used to pull boss with counter. On DBM you can do command /dbm pull 10 and it will start 10 second countdown and lastly show "Pull Now" text. Everyone should use potions when the timer has 1-3 sec remaining. Potion goes to one min CD, but it is usable after that, since you popped it before combat started.

    Dont expect that there is one simple solution which solves everything Small streams grow in to big rivers if you connect many of them. For General tips I would say that tell your raiders to get addon like Weakauras or TellMeWhen to display trinket procs and debuff uptimes etc. In most of the cases if you have 2-3 min CD and you dont use it on every cooldown it ends up being DPS loss. Lets say you have 9 min fight and your CD is 2 min long. At that time you could use it 5 times and have 1 minute extra, which you can wait at some point to line CD with trinket proc and such.
    Last edited by Sadmustache; 2013-09-01 at 12:41 PM.

  4. #4
    Thank you very much for your reply.

    About the Hit I think those people just cannot pull it down anymore because their gears come with a lot of hit. And about the potion, as we think we are already over-geared for the content, so we decided not to use them.

    Actually I have a question, when I look online, some players say that we should sync our dps CDs with trinkets procs. I have tried it but I found out that it is quite hard as the trinket proc rate is sometimes quite unpredictable. If we keep saving up our CDs for those procs, it might be a dps loss. So should we sync CDs with procs or just use them off every time they are up?

  5. #5
    I looked at your death knight tank since they're my only area of expertise, he needs to reforge the hit from his shoulders but mostly he just has badly itemised gear so I[m sure if he's unlucky or if he's derpy.

    He's also running full mastery, sitting at 212%, I'm doing full heroic clears every week and I don't feel the need to go above 180ish. He should really stop reforging into parry as well and put all that plus some of his mastery into haste. That will up his dps by quite a bit. Also, he can probably afford to use the dps runeforge not the tanking one.

    Lastly, he's using a 502 weapon, have you really not had any 522 weapons for him? Looking at the rest of his gear he might be under the impression that he should swing that thing around just because it has mastery on it instead of replacing it with the sword from council.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by zilkhaw View Post
    Actually I have a question, when I look online, some players say that we should sync our dps CDs with trinkets procs. I have tried it but I found out that it is quite hard as the trinket proc rate is sometimes quite unpredictable. If we keep saving up our CDs for those procs, it might be a dps loss. So should we sync CDs with procs or just use them off every time they are up?
    The general rule is to use your cooldowns as much as possible. Your second priority is to sync them with trinkets.
    For instance I (feral druid) can use my berserk (30 sec cd) 3 times within a given fight that lasts 8 min. I will use the two first ones as soon as soon as possible (postponing it with a few seconds in order to make sure they match with my general rotation). The third one I will wait until I have good trinket procs, but still making sure I get to use it within those 2 min I have left over.

    If you have shorter cooldowns (30 sec - 1 min) you should generally use them as soon as they are ready, unless fight/spec calls for something different.

    He's also running full mastery, sitting at 212%, I'm doing full heroic clears every week and I don't feel the need to go above 180ish. He should really stop reforging into parry as well and put all that plus some of his mastery into haste. That will up his dps by quite a bit. Also, he can probably afford to use the dps runeforge not the tanking one.
    You probably know more about blood dk's than I, so please correct me if I am wrong, but he should go for the DPS runeforge before he chooses to refoge out of mastery. Not only does it add way more damage, it also removes less survivability.
    Last edited by Karlzone; 2013-09-01 at 01:38 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Just look at buff / debuff uptimes and cooldown usage.

    Using the mage as an example on Durumu.
    1) 72% uptime on invokers energy. It's 15% less damage if you lose the buff. The buff wasn't active for almost 1/3 of the fight.
    2) Nether tempest uptime was about the same at 74%. More damage lost.
    3) Used alter time and Icy Veins once in 7 minutes. Should have used them 3 times.

    The mage should use a tracker for stuff like this such as "tell me when".

    Next he needs to use his proc's 34 brainfreeze procs and 11 of them were wasted since he fired off 24 frostfire bolts.
    Durumu is a bad fight to look at that stuff. I agree there's no reason to not have 100% uptime on Nether Tempest in that fight, but on Invoker's Energy I can understand. If you look at the more stationary fights like Jin'Rokh and Council, he has ~85% and 99% uptime on Invoker's Energy, bombs also near 100%. Durumu is one of the most multi-tasking heavy fights in ToT, so I wouldn't blame him too much. It can quickly get too much to handle for less experienced players. A ton of time is spent having to run around not doing any damage, doing different things.

    But mostly I agree with you. If he didn't use his bomb procs, that's a major loss of DPS. So is not using Icy Veins and Alter Time. Not sure how accurate the logs are especially with prepots, but in all the logs he used a potion only four times. In combination with Time Warp, Frozen Orb, Icy Veins and mirror images, that would be a major DPS increase, for just a little gold.

    Looking at his armory, he seems to be under the crit cap. 21.5% or so should be the unbuffed crit rating to hit 28% crit with raid buffs. He also needs to get a different trinket, UVLS is complete garbage for frost.

    His DPS on Jinrokh were about 165k, with his gear and potions he should be breaking 200k there, unless he has to run with lightnings over and over again.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by CptAwesome View Post
    Lastly, he's using a 502 weapon, have you really not had any 522 weapons for him? Looking at the rest of his gear he might be under the impression that he should swing that thing around just because it has mastery on it instead of replacing it with the sword from council.
    Thank you very much for your sharing. Actually he has a 536 Thunderforged 2H weapon from Council. Just he got his Black Ice 2 days ago and he was so happy. But Polearm cannot be Xmoged to 2H sword, so he took out his LFR 502 weapon.

    Since you are an expert in DK tanking, can you please share the way on how you gem or reforge in a more detail way? According to my experience as the Brewmaster tank, and I found out that DK tank sometimes take a lot of spike damage but I have totally no problem with this (iLvl gap is 10, though). Maybe Monk is better at dealing with spike damage, I am not sure. As the only tank class that I have played since MoP is BrM Monk, I can't compare it with other tank classes.

  9. #9
    Send every single member of your guild to Icy-veins.com and have them read up on their characters. Then have them install some form of reforging addon so they're not over any caps.

    I agree about Tell Me When for characters having issues with uptimes on things that should be 99%+.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Selesnya View Post
    Looking at his armory, he seems to be under the crit cap. 21.5% or so should be the unbuffed crit rating to hit 28% crit with raid buffs. He also needs to get a different trinket, UVLS is complete garbage for frost.
    Thank you for your reply. Regarding to the 21.5% crit cap, may I know from where do you guys get those data? I believe that those Haste Cap, Crit Cap is very important in Dps improvement but I failed to find any good reference.

    About the trinkets, what would you suggest for a frost mage in current Tier?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Send every single member of your guild to Icy-veins.com and have them read up on their characters. Then have them install some form of reforging addon so they're not over any caps.
    Actually I don't know whether should I follow Icy-veins or not. As for me as a BrM tank, Icy-veins suggested

    Exp(15%)/Hit(7.5%) > Agi > Mastery > Critical > Haste

    But when I import my character to Mr.Robot, the stat priority is

    Exp(15%)/Hit(7.5%) > Agi > Haste(18.8% unbuffed) > Critical > Mastery

    And personally I prefer Mr.Robot. So I am kind of confused right now

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by zilkhaw View Post
    Exp(15%)/Hit(7.5%) > Agi > Mastery > Critical > Haste

    But when I import my character to Mr.Robot, the stat priority is

    Exp(15%)/Hit(7.5%) > Agi > Haste(18.8% unbuffed) > Critical > Mastery

    And personally I prefer Mr.Robot. So I am kind of confused right now
    if everybody in your raid would go with mr. robot you should not wonder about dps-issue

    icy-veins-guides are written by the finest players and you trust more into mr. robot?!?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violetti View Post
    if everybody in your raid would go with mr. robot you should not wonder about dps-issue

    icy-veins-guides are written by the finest players and you trust more into mr. robot?!?
    Blindly following a stat priority like you suggest leads to bad play.

    You should seek to understand why you're going for each stat in which order.

    Priority for a monk for instance changes depending on raid size/difficulty and ilvl as well as progress/farm and so on.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by zilkhaw View Post
    Thank you for your reply. Regarding to the 21.5% crit cap, may I know from where do you guys get those data? I believe that those Haste Cap, Crit Cap is very important in Dps improvement but I failed to find any good reference.

    About the trinkets, what would you suggest for a frost mage in current Tier?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Actually I don't know whether should I follow Icy-veins or not. As for me as a BrM tank, Icy-veins suggested

    Exp(15%)/Hit(7.5%) > Agi > Mastery > Critical > Haste

    But when I import my character to Mr.Robot, the stat priority is

    Exp(15%)/Hit(7.5%) > Agi > Haste(18.8% unbuffed) > Critical > Mastery

    And personally I prefer Mr.Robot. So I am kind of confused right now
    Generally Icy-veins is the best 'on the fly' website for your rotation/reforges.

    But their advice for tanks, while really solid for mitigation and damage reduction, are sometimes wrong-ish.

    Like a BrM like you, if you go for full dmg reduction you would go for a full mastery build, so that you're stagerring ridiculous amounts of damage.

    But on the content you're running (10n/10h) you really don't need that much stagger, at your playing field prioritising crit foremost after getting enough haste to be able to spam the living shit out of your Keg Smash every time it's off cooldown is the way to go.

    So for you, Exp>Hit>Haste till comfy>CRIT

    Our BrM gems and reforges fulltime into crit, having ridiculous uptimes on his elusive brew and doing Nice damage on top of that.

    As an example, with the talent Ascension I'm already reforging away my haste in favor of crit on my 470 BrM alt.

    Like, especially for tanks, what type of content you're running is what's going to change how you gear/gem/forge. You needto be able to discern when you need what.


    Onto your DK; it's really simple. For decent dps with decent survivability Hit7.5>Exp7.5>Mastery(180%+)>Haste(10-15k)>Mastery.
    My DK is my main, and at the moment I do heroic content fully reforged Hit>Exp>Crit>Haste. This gives me almost zero survivability, but at this point I don't need it, I can just go for more DPS.

    This principle goes for all tanks, you can completely turtle by going for mastery as a BrM/Blood/ProtW/ProtP or you can divert your strategy into something more lucrative, which sometimes even surpases the 'tank stats' of old, like crit for BrM haste for ProtP and Blood and crit for ProtW in the next patch.

  14. #14
    Thanks to everyone who have replied here.

    I have a question. As a 530 Dps, if gem and reforge it with the right way and with correct rotation, normally how much dps can you pull?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by zilkhaw View Post
    Thanks to everyone who have replied here.

    I have a question. As a 530 Dps, if gem and reforge it with the right way and with correct rotation, normally how much dps can you pull?
    Wildly dependant on class and encounter.

    Anywhere from ~120k (as melee painting on consorts, because that's about as bad as it can possibly get) to ~600k (fire mage with some RNG on council).

    You mention being a BrM and not understanding IV priority.

    As a BrM myself it's quite easy, you only need a couple guidelines:

    Cap hit (7.5) and expertise (15). Those are the best DPS stats by a huge margin, smooth your chi generation, give your raid more bubbles (via damage) and generate the most GotOx orbs. If you don't pick them up DO, they heal a ton.

    On haste: Get as little as you need to feel comfortable with your chi generation. Comfortable is the key word, you may need 10k haste, or feel 1k is too much. The number is up to you, i suggest starting with ~4k and working from there.

    On crit vs mastery: unless your healers can't keep you alive (and that's mostly they sucking/raid taking too much damage), you get globaled (that means you failed at CD usage) or you have enough raid DPS to disregard your own (that doesn't seem the case) crit all the way. That is because crit boosts elusive brew generation, and more elusive = more dodge = more 2P. If you feel you need more EHP then get some mastery, but it isn't really needed due to 2P. Be mindful tho, 2P is getting nerfed on 5.4.

    That's all you need to know to start heroics, everything else comes from experience and is encounter especific

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