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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Not excatly, Garrosh had zero interests in drop a bomb in a school full of druid novices. Krom'gar acted by his own because he was a complete moron, the original plan was to drop the bomb on the night elven outpost, but gnomish flying machines and artillery pretty backed up the said plan. Indeed if it wasn't for that, we would have seen a mini-Theramore event already in Cataclysm, but Garrosh have litterally to thanks to have appointed a general retarded like Krom'gar that in fact made him looks like a big hero.



    I partially agree. If they wanted, Garrosh was still "reedamble" in Cataclysm as a character. Problem is, they never wanted that from the beginning, they had clearly in mind what to do with him like they had clear ideas about what to do with Varian. They left both in game and in novels many foreshadowing hints that Garrosh could have taken the worst path, mostly because this was their plan for him by ever.
    I don't disagree with this. I don't doubt they intended to make him a villain as of Cata, I'm only saying that the character wasn't beyond redemption at that point yet.

  2. #162
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    I don't disagree with this. I don't doubt they intended to make him a villain as of Cata, I'm only saying that the character wasn't beyond redemption at that point yet.
    thats kind of like hoping the match you strike in a gunpowder chamber doesn't make it explode around you.
    #boycottchina

  3. #163
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    You mean this non-canon response?
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Made an acc to ask you this, WAS Garrosh behind Stonetalon's bombing? Kosak's answer was really up to interpretation. GJ btw
    My assumption is he was, but that's my interpretation and not a canon answer. (Source)
    That genius in the twitter pretty made the right question to the wrong person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  4. #164
    Deleted
    So far as I'm concerned making Garrosh behind the Stonetalon bombing, or at the least not as concerned about the loss of innocent lives than he first appeared is nothing more than a shameless retcon to make us hate Garrosh more and justify his abrupt turn into irredeemable evil. And quite frankly it was an unnecessary retcon. Why exactly did Garrosh have to become a mustache twirling villain to become MOP's Big Bad. I can see Cataclysm Garrosh grown desperate resorting to the use of the Sha and bringing the Alliance and Horde down on him and personally I think it would have been a lot more interesting.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Protar View Post
    So far as I'm concerned making Garrosh behind the Stonetalon bombing, or at the least not as concerned about the loss of innocent lives than he first appeared is nothing more than a shameless retcon to make us hate Garrosh more and justify his abrupt turn into irredeemable evil. And quite frankly it was an unnecessary retcon. Why exactly did Garrosh have to become a mustache twirling villain to become MOP's Big Bad. I can see Cataclysm Garrosh grown desperate resorting to the use of the Sha and bringing the Alliance and Horde down on him and personally I think it would have been a lot more interesting.
    When you take the extended universe material, novels and short stories to be precise, I don't really think Garrosh's descent was really out of nowhere.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    When you take the extended universe material, novels and short stories to be precise, I don't really think Garrosh's descent was really out of nowhere.
    Exactly, Garrosh was always willing to do what was necessary, he constantly talked about honor, but discarded it immediately if it suited his needs.

  7. #167
    It would cause additional game design issues. That's why.

    Remember... Blizzard game developer design will always dictate lore logic, not the other way around.

  8. #168
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Exactly, Garrosh was always willing to do what was necessary, he constantly talked about honor, but discarded it immediately if it suited his needs.
    The only case in which Garrosh truly displayed "honor" in practice terms was in Heart of War, where he bashed Blackscar about the ambush in the Broken Front.

    But in fact, he did it so only because he felt on himself the pressure of both Thrall's and Saurfang's judgement, and while Thrall bursted out immediatily saying something like "this is a shameful and cowardly act!", Garrosh thought with himself something like "In the end, has been a good thing that the Alliance didn't get Mor'dethar". Just figure out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    When you take the extended universe material, novels and short stories to be precise, I don't really think Garrosh's descent was really out of nowhere.
    It's not out of nowhere I agree. Even just playing the game it's there. I just feel that as of MOP (or rather Tides of War though I haven't read that) he takes a rather sharp turn that could have been developed more smoothly I feel.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Protar View Post
    It's not out of nowhere I agree. Even just playing the game it's there. I just feel that as of MOP (or rather Tides of War though I haven't read that) he takes a rather sharp turn that could have been developed more smoothly I feel.
    It could have been done better, I agree. I just don't agree with the people spouting "Garrosh was always 100% irredeemably evil" or "this came out of nowhere." I think it's a middle ground.

  11. #171
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protar View Post
    It's not out of nowhere I agree. Even just playing the game it's there. I just feel that as of MOP (or rather Tides of War though I haven't read that) he takes a rather sharp turn that could have been developed more smoothly I feel.
    I don't know, Garrosh in Tides of War didn't just seem to become another kind of person or suddenly becoming an extremist, when you actually read the novel you just understand two things that pretty changed compared to Cataclysm:

    1- Garrosh is smarter and almost cool-headed in some things, but displays a more cynical attitude. All of this could be easily explained with him, in fact, learning some tricks or two about how to be a "smart" leader, even if this for him meant just using a lot of deception and faked respect for the allies that in fact never seriously respected by the beginning, just for obtain what he wanted;

    2- Garrosh is very full of himself in the novel, pretty egocentric and arrogant in a way which is pretty a step forward compared to Garrosh in Cata (that already shown signs of reckless arrogance and dictatorial attitudes). This seems just Garrosh becoming more aware of his effective power, that now was pretty huge thanks to all the Blackrock orcs like Malkorok that he added inside the Horde, which gave him enough military power to litterally "keep in hostage" his nearby allies.
    His new advisor, Malkorok, gave him also the need of support and validation that Garrosh always desired, and Malkorok himself gave to Garrosh many "ideas" about how to effectively "keep in check" not only the Horde leaders but every member of the Horde, orcs included.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-09-08 at 08:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  12. #172
    Deleted
    Because it's a game and the creators can give power to whomsoever they wish. Real politics would rarely apply here. I don't see what all the fuss is about.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Paladinne1 View Post
    Because it's a game and the creators can give power to whomsoever they wish. Real politics would rarely apply here. I don't see what all the fuss is about.
    When the explanation is "because the writer said so, logic doesn't matter" then that's a poorly written story.

  14. #174
    Deleted
    I hope they wont, But blizzard have multipel times said " gameplay is more importen then lore" so even if orcs are always the main army, so most orcs have died, AND many orcs have joined Garrosh, somehow they are still the main force of the horde, and therefor they will still be in control.

  15. #175
    Deleted
    I hope they wont, But blizzard have multipel times said " gameplay is more importen then lore" so even if orcs are always the main army, so most orcs have died, AND many orcs have joined Garrosh, somehow they are still the main force of the horde, and therefor they will still be in control.
    This pretty much explains it.

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragemv View Post
    I hope they wont, But blizzard have multipel times said " gameplay is more importen then lore" so even if orcs are always the main army, so most orcs have died, AND many orcs have joined Garrosh, somehow they are still the main force of the horde, and therefor they will still be in control.
    But the Orcs being the dominant force in the Horde is nothing to do with gameplay. It's all about the story representation. So long as they're not placing a cap on the amount of Orc players available per realm gameplay is not being affected by the Orcs taking a back seat.

  17. #177
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragemv View Post
    "gameplay is more importen then lore"
    That quote is said mostly to anyone bitching about Ashenvale and Gilneas not reflecting the "Alliance victories" and that they prefer keep the zones like they are and offering interesting questing for both sides instead of just screw up everything just for a question of satisfaction and "fairness".
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    That quote is said mostly to anyone bitching about Ashenvale and Gilneas not reflecting the "Alliance victories" and that they prefer keep the zones like they are and offering interesting questing for both sides instead of just screw up everything just for a question of satisfaction and "fairness".
    Or they could operate phasing so it feels like the world is dynamic and alive.

    If they are/were going to commit themselves to an Alliance vs Horde war then they should have damn well made sure they had the resources to keep it dynamic and interesting for both sides. If not end it and return to a neutral storyline that both factions can enjoy.

  19. #179
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    Or they could operate phasing so it feels like the world is dynamic and alive.

    If they are/were going to commit themselves to an Alliance vs Horde war then they should have damn well made sure they had the resources to keep it dynamic and interesting for both sides. If not end it and return to a neutral storyline that both factions can enjoy.
    Resources that should be drained by much more useful content for a pointless phasing. And for anyone bitching about "they did it with Theramore", replace a city full of scripts, text quests and dialogues with nothing but a huge crater is extremely easy, you just erase everything and put "nothing" there. Phasing places like Ashenvale and Gilneas would require new scripts, new quests, new npcs and new dialogues. And that's huge.

    I don't even know what it means "neutral storyline", since the point of phasing Ashenvale would be to, basically, remove the Horde presence from there, while now both sides have plenty of quests there, and this have nothing to do with the feeling of fairness, justice, sense of victory and stuff like that. For this they always say "gameplay > lore" when it comes to the game itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  20. #180
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Resources that should be drained by much more useful content for a pointless phasing. And for anyone bitching about "they did it with Theramore", replace a city full of scripts, text quests and dialogues with nothing but a huge crater is extremely easy, you just erase everything and put "nothing" there. Phasing places like Ashenvale and Gilneas would require new scripts, new quests, new npcs and new dialogues. And that's huge.

    I don't even know what it means "neutral storyline", since the point of phasing Ashenvale would be to, basically, remove the Horde presence from there, while now both sides have plenty of quests there, and this have nothing to do with the feeling of fairness, justice, sense of victory and stuff like that. For this they always say "gameplay > lore" when it comes to the game itself.
    Don't forget all the artwork for the crater was already completed for the scenario. All they did was copy/paste it into the world.

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