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  1. #21
    here are the facts

    wow has lost 5,000,000 subs in 33 months
    wow has shown a sub loss in all but 1 quarter since cata launched in december 2010

    if you're defending blizz by saying they know what they're doing, then why in the hell are they allowing 6000 subs PER DAY to get away?
    face it, blizzard has no fucking clue what the problem is, they're lost, grasping for straws and anyone without an agenda sees it.

    this is EXACTLY what happened to EQ and back then, people like you said the same exact shit and you were completely wrong

    losing nearly half your customers in less than 3 years is crippling.

    the FACTS don't make blizzard look like they have a clue.

  2. #22
    Take a look at some of the stuff that passes as 'feedback' on the Twitter and Forum accounts and you'll understand why they're occasionally passive aggressive.

    The Passive aggressive ones are always picked for news write ups because they get a reaction or actually address issues, with the response being elicited by players being complete argumentative dicks to the staff.


    As to why theres been such a large sub loss over the 9 yrs or whatever its been since release, the REAL answer is choice.

    Theres so many MMO type games out there now that people don't just have the choice of WoW vs EQ.

  3. #23
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schicklgruber View Post
    here are the facts

    wow has lost 5,000,000 subs in 33 months
    wow has shown a sub loss in all but 1 quarter since cata launched in december 2010

    if you're defending blizz by saying they know what they're doing, then why in the hell are they allowing 6000 subs PER DAY to get away?
    face it, blizzard has no fucking clue what the problem is, they're lost, grasping for straws and anyone without an agenda sees it.

    this is EXACTLY what happened to EQ and back then, people like you said the same exact shit and you were completely wrong

    losing nearly half your customers in less than 3 years is crippling.

    the FACTS don't make blizzard look like they have a clue.
    And? Are you really surprised by this? MMOs are vanishing to the point where only their hardcore fans remain, such is the natural lifecycle of any mmo.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    1. In BC, the game was riding on Vanilla. Compared to other MMO's at the time, WoW was easy, and extremely accessible. However as time dragged on...

    2. Sunwell comes out, and people find this game isn't easy! Wrath comes out and the game becomes easy mode. (yet not that easy because heroic Lich King took forever to kill). Yay! 12 million subs!

    3. Cataclysm comes out, and it's the first expansion Ghostcrawler has been around for the entirety of. GC and his "WoW, dungeons are hard" mentality, backfired. T11 is hard, and so are the dungeons that go with it. LFG has a 45 minutes queue, because the dungeons take 2 hours to clear. Current raids are no longer puggable due to their difficulty. Millions leave. They realize by Firelands, and the tier that followed that, that was a wrong choice and make the game easy again. Too late though for Blizzard, the subs continue to bleed.

    4. Instead of admitting fault with Cataclysm and try to emulate Wrath, they go crazy in MoP, give us Panda's, no tangible bad guy, and make it the least casual friendly expansion to date by trying to pass off grinding as content. Casuals don't have time, nor want to do 40 dailies a day...on every character. As a result, subs are at the lowest ever.
    You mean most casual friendly by date, seeing as you can do everything a heroic raider does EXCEPT Ra-den. Just because dailys exist doesn't mean you HAVE to do them, people are just extreamly stupid and don't realize its OPTIONAL content.

  5. #25
    I stopped playing because at a certain point, I felt my efforts were pointless.
    Every expansion, I just tried getting the best gear, that way, I felt once I accomplished that I could do whatever I wanted, play bg's for fun, not worry about scores and points, and honor, etc, maybe run around the other factions main city.
    I could just do whatever I wanted, as I accomplished what I set out to do.
    But every patch, every expansion, I get rinsed and repeated, no end, previous gear I work hard for was now worthless, and only got a few months play time with the set complete at the most, compared to double the time I spent obtaining it.
    So I'll wait until the day that wow, actually has a true end game.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    And? Are you really surprised by this? MMOs are vanishing to the point where only their hardcore fans remain, such is the natural lifecycle of any mmo.
    wish you people who have nothing at all to say wouldn't say somethign anyway

    right now the mmorpg genre has 25000% more players than it did 10 years ago
    it's literally so far from what you said you should feel ashamed

    you completely pulled some bullshit smartass reply out of your ass just to boost that post count and it's fucking pathetic

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by iadamson View Post
    I stopped playing because at a certain point, I felt my efforts were pointless.
    Every expansion, I just tried getting the best gear, that way, I felt once I accomplished that I could do whatever I wanted, play bg's for fun, not worry about scores and points, and honor, etc, maybe run around the other factions main city.
    I could just do whatever I wanted, as I accomplished what I set out to do.
    But every patch, every expansion, I get rinsed and repeated, no end, previous gear I work hard for was now worthless, and only got a few months play time with the set complete at the most, compared to double the time I spent obtaining it.
    So I'll wait until the day that wow, actually has a true end game.
    i never minded the carrot on the stick, but i liked how naxx40 gear lasted a while. even with a small inflation of ilvl in bc, it lasted a little while
    now the shit is replaced by greens in the 2nd zone and that MIGHT be addressed when they do the squish, but who knows.

    if blizz could do it over again, there would be linear progression and less bloat and that is kind of fucked up that it's so far beyond that point that they don't know if they can do anything about it

  7. #27
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schicklgruber View Post
    wish you people who have nothing at all to say wouldn't say somethign anyway

    right now the mmorpg genre has 25000% more players than it did 10 years ago
    it's literally so far from what you said you should feel ashamed

    you completely pulled some bullshit smartass reply out of your ass just to boost that post count and it's fucking pathetic
    Oh I see common sense seems not to be your expertise oh well, Vol'jin be missing ya on da Echo Isles mon.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkPhoenix View Post
    Take a look at some of the stuff that passes as 'feedback' on the Twitter and Forum accounts and you'll understand why they're occasionally passive aggressive.

    The Passive aggressive ones are always picked for news write ups because they get a reaction or actually address issues, with the response being elicited by players being complete argumentative dicks to the staff.


    As to why theres been such a large sub loss over the 9 yrs or whatever its been since release, the REAL answer is choice.

    Theres so many MMO type games out there now that people don't just have the choice of WoW vs EQ.
    if people are choosing the other product, your product is flawed. when they're putting your product down to use the other, it's broken. they can't blame marketing or players or whatever else they wanna blame.

    i really think they have no clue and they're frustrated.

  9. #29
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schicklgruber View Post
    here are the facts

    wow has lost 5,000,000 subs in 33 months
    wow has shown a sub loss in all but 1 quarter since cata launched in december 2010
    I know. It's really unfortunate. I do feel it will stabilize eventually. I look at it like the housing bubble. It hasn't had any effect on my game experience, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by schicklgruber View Post
    if you're defending blizz by saying they know what they're doing, then why in the hell are they allowing 6000 subs PER DAY to get away?
    Last time I checked, they didn't have some magical powers to prevent people from leaving. As well, subscription churn is normal. People quit for all sorts of reasons (and new ones take their place) but the difference here is that Blizzard has managed to have some 30,000,000 users over its lifetime. You're running afoul of the very thing you're decrying: Blizzard cannot please everyone. They try, but that is impossible, for any company. Ever. It can't happen. There is always going to be someone who feels they've gotten the short end of the stick.

    Quote Originally Posted by schicklgruber View Post
    face it, blizzard has no fucking clue what the problem is, they're lost, grasping for straws and anyone without an agenda sees it.
    Doesn't really matter, I suppose. Blizzard could say they know what the issue is until they're blue in the face (and they have) but all you'll do is ignore it, say they're clueless, accuse them of ignoring you and whitewashing the whole issue, and tell everyone who disagrees with you that they're just posting "meatshield responses", so...yeah.



  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by xXzCoDProxXz View Post
    Oh and Blizz not listening to their playerbase....dude, are you stuck in a timebubble? its been like that probably before your time, before even mine...its BLIZZARD for effs sake. I bet I can find a thread where I wrote in 2003, how OP hammerdins were in Diablo 2 pvp. I launched the game about 3 years ago again...guess what?T hey are still just as OP, and it has been 10 years since I created that thread on the old BNET forums.
    Come on, you expect class balance support for D2? Just be grateful the servers haven't been shut down.

    I remember when hammers were garbage, back before the skill synergy change (patch 1.10, in late 2003)... frankly it was amazing that they were still supporting it enough to institute a major change like synergies when the game came was over 3 years old at that point.

    And of course... D2... balance... lol.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by schicklgruber View Post
    face it, blizzard has no fucking clue what the problem is, they're lost, grasping for straws and anyone without an agenda sees it.
    Right but QQers on the forums do, do they?

    WoW is old. End of story.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by schicklgruber View Post
    if people are choosing the other product, your product is flawed. when they're putting your product down to use the other, it's broken.
    Sorry but this was so much of a mind fuck I couldn't resist replying. Did the OP grow up in communist Russia or something? Coke and Pepsi are more or less the same thing....immensely popular yet by the OPs logic one of them must be broken? In a world where everyone is more or less subjected to some kind of consumerism it's refreshing to see that someone didn't get the memo lol.

    For most of us putting down a product and trying an alternative has nothing to do with the former being broken, just that we're bored and fancy a change.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by schicklgruber View Post
    if people are choosing the other product, your product is flawed. when they're putting your product down to use the other, it's broken. they can't blame marketing or players or whatever else they wanna blame.

    i really think they have no clue and they're frustrated.
    They can blame marketing, for marketing is FOUR Ps: Price, PRODUCT, Promotion, and Placement.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by schicklgruber View Post
    if people are choosing the other product, your product is flawed. when they're putting your product down to use the other, it's broken. they can't blame marketing or players or whatever else they wanna blame.

    i really think they have no clue and they're frustrated.
    Not necessarily, The Warcraft world doesn't appeal to everyone.

    With things like Planetside 2 (MMO Shooter) providing other options people don't feel forced to play WoW because it's not the ONLY decent MMO around now.

  14. #34
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schicklgruber View Post
    if people are choosing the other product, your product is flawed. when they're putting your product down to use the other, it's broken. they can't blame marketing or players or whatever else they wanna blame.

    i really think they have no clue and they're frustrated.
    What? That's like saying that french fries from McDonalds must be flawed because you prefer Wendy's more.



  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    1. In BC, the game was riding on Vanilla. Compared to other MMO's at the time, WoW was easy, and extremely accessible. However as time dragged on...

    2. Sunwell comes out, and people find this game isn't easy! Wrath comes out and the game becomes easy mode. (yet not that easy because heroic Lich King took forever to kill). Yay! 12 million subs!

    3. Cataclysm comes out, and it's the first expansion Ghostcrawler has been around for the entirety of. GC and his "WoW, dungeons are hard" mentality, backfired. T11 is hard, and so are the dungeons that go with it. LFG has a 45 minutes queue, because the dungeons take 2 hours to clear. Current raids are no longer puggable due to their difficulty. Millions leave. They realize by Firelands, and the tier that followed that, that was a wrong choice and make the game easy again. Too late though for Blizzard, the subs continue to bleed.

    4. Instead of admitting fault with Cataclysm and try to emulate Wrath, they go crazy in MoP, give us Panda's, no tangible bad guy, and make it the least casual friendly expansion to date by trying to pass off grinding as content. Casuals don't have time, nor want to do 40 dailies a day...on every character. As a result, subs are at the lowest ever.
    As a player since Vanilla, I think you got this square. It's not all of it. You can't get it all in a brief synopsis, but I think you nailed what you got, especially the Cata and MoP stuff.... trying to pass grinding off as content... ugh. I called it when I was on the beta. My hardcore friends shouted, "GOOD". What's funny is that only ONE of them even plays anymore. ALL of them have left the game. The grind killed recruiting on for raiding on all, but the most populated servers. So, it wasn't just content for "how do I spend my time when I log on", but also content for raid prep.


    MoP killed the Semi-Casual which is a shame because that bridge was a pretty crucial part of the WoW player ecosystem.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by schicklgruber View Post
    Does Blizzard blame the player feedback for the huge sub loss which leads to them ignoring player feedback now?

    I get the vibe reading all these smartass, passive aggressive replies from devs on about every topic that they think they know better and aren't just ignoring players, they're actively "putting players in their place".

    Meanwhile, wow has shown a loss in subs in all but 1 quarter for 33 months straight. I get the "it's your fault, subscribers" vibe when they talk about cata especially, harder dungeons seems to be the #1 topic. They started pandering to people who were new to MMORPGs and did NOT want to spend a lot of time on a daily basis in their virtual world. Then they SLIGHTLY increased difficulty (compared to wotlk heroics) for cata heroics and are pointing to that as a turning point when in reality, the people who had issues with that are still all over the place. They were such a large part of the majority that making any group of them happy was gonna piss off or annoy the other groups by default.

    this part shows their snarky attitude and passive aggressive tone (then their bullshit coveryourass move)

    Q:you guys talk about ability bloat and I see the best way to address that is the revert some of the class homogenization

    A:Sure. What useful ability are you willing to give up? (Source)
    AThat wasn't supposed to be sarcastic BTW.) (Source)

    and i'm sure the meatshields will say what they always say, but here is the thing

    EQ was the #1 MMORPG around when Sony decided they knew best. 12 months later it wasn't the #10 MMORPG around.

    i feel like blizzard tried to kiss everyone's ass and now that they realize they can't make everyone happy, they're bitter
    The direction Blizzard chose to take the game is responsible for the loss and spike of subs. You no longer have to sub for more than one month to see any new content they create. So after you see what they spent months making you just unsub until they release the next patch or expansion.

  17. #37
    same old "answers" from you people are getting old

    "wow is old"
    "losing half your customers is normal"
    "blah blah blah"

    just give up and admit reality, wow didn't peak 33 months ago then get super old overnight, that's fucking ridiculous. it PEAKED at year 6, it is now where it was during year 3

    the rise in subs from bc to cata was called "meteoric", "dominant", all this other positive shit
    but the reverse is no big deal? come on, that's bullshit

    blizzard is shitting themselves looking for an answer, but they don't have it, they think you're all too stupid to know what you want and ever year a new MMO launches and takes a 2 million subs

    in 2014 ESO launches on PC, xbox2 and ps4.

    skyrim sold 14,000,000 copies (85% on consoles) so expectations for total sales are over 10,000,000 for the first year

    meanwhile rift is still high quality, gw2 is high quality and better for casuals than wow could ever be, wildstar is coming out, ff is gonna snag a chunk

    the problem isn't wow's age. it's become a fine piece of art that was painted over again and again and again until you couldn't see wtf it was anymore. it just became a lot of nothing interesting

    age isn't the issue. it was old 3 years ago when it peaked. it's trying to appeal to everyone so most of the game isn't appealing to everyone.
    if they don't figure out who they want to appeal to, they'll end up appealing to nobody at all. they have to pick something and stick with it. appealing to everyone has failed miserably

  18. #38
    Players in general are quick to point out what they dislike, but have very little to offer in terms of exactly how the problems they're discussing should be corrected. I'd say in general, the dev team listened a bit when folks said they wanted a more difficult game, and then listened again when folks said they wanted an easier go of it. Both moves wound up losing subs.

    I'd stop listening as well.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
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    I still prefer seeing Thrall rather than blood in my urine, that doesnt make him a good character. - Verdugo

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Mackeyser View Post
    As a player since Vanilla, I think you got this square. It's not all of it. You can't get it all in a brief synopsis, but I think you nailed what you got, especially the Cata and MoP stuff.... trying to pass grinding off as content... ugh. I called it when I was on the beta. My hardcore friends shouted, "GOOD". What's funny is that only ONE of them even plays anymore. ALL of them have left the game. The grind killed recruiting on for raiding on all, but the most populated servers. So, it wasn't just content for "how do I spend my time when I log on", but also content for raid prep.


    MoP killed the Semi-Casual which is a shame because that bridge was a pretty crucial part of the WoW player ecosystem.
    I liked the daily grind MOP had (first time since BC that dailies felt like they were worth something) but the insane QQ killed that aspect of the game and now I don't play nearly as much, as the game has reverted back to just queuing up and grinding instances primarily.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by schicklgruber View Post
    if people are choosing the other product, your product is flawed. when they're putting your product down to use the other, it's broken. they can't blame marketing or players or whatever else they wanna blame.

    i really think they have no clue and they're frustrated.
    Your product might be flawed, but the far more realistic stance is that some gamers have different preferences in what sort of game they enjoy. There's nothing broken about that.

    The most broken thing about this game IMO is that it attempts to appease *everyone* for lack of a better word.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse
    I still prefer seeing Thrall rather than blood in my urine, that doesnt make him a good character. - Verdugo

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