1. #1

    Divine Purpose vs Holy Avenger (Holy Pally) 10 man

    Personally i choose Holy Avenger on every fight in throne of thunder but today i ran with divine purpose on primordius HC. I felt like it didn't proc very often and when it did it wasn't always at a time where there was a lot of healing. Although i did like it when the rng went in my favor. Holy avenger just seems like too strong of a cd not to take but i see a lot of top end holy pallys take divine purpose over it and i want to know why.

    I want to know which talent you take and why? and are there any fights you switch out which talent you choose? (interested in knowing which you take on heroic bosses)

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Pit Lord Mifuyne's Avatar
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    Holy Avenger on all (25man tho).
    It can be fun to use DP when you are just clearing/having fun but I don't recommend it during progression.
    I'm assuming most "top-end" paladins are already at 13/13hc for weeks/months and just try to enjoy themselves when they pick up DP.
    Unless they stealth buffed it, which I doubt.
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  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    I like HA - I like it alot. It gives you some sort of safety net if you need it. If you have an encounter where you need a predictable SoTR Wall or have do endure strong physical damage for a longer peroid of time, HA is the way to go (doesnt matter if 10 or 25 man I would say).

    However, DP should be used for everything else (or SW in 5.4, some discussion about that one in another thread recently). Mifuyne is right, most 13/13hc paladins use DP on farmcontent if they really don't need HA (I only use HA for DA HC Zerg in the current content). DP gives you theoretically a higher uptime of SoTR when you sim it.

    From personal experience I can tell you, that especially if you have 4pt15, DP looks and feels superior. If you game DP correctly, you can have 15-20 secs of SoTR Wall without much trouble (at high haste values) given the right encounter. My longest DP proc chain was about 50 secs of SoTR Wall.

    I used HA quite alot on HC Progression (Horridon, Megaera Solo Tank, Ji-Kun, DA, Iron Qon, Twins). Mostly because a) I needed a long SoTR Wall (3 Dogs + Qon) b) I needed a reliable Burst at a specific time + defense (megaera solo tank) or c) I just fitted quite nicely with tank switches / encounter design (ji-kun, horridon). For everything else I used - or should have used - DP. Sometimes I just didn't switch it out because I forgot or was too lazy.

    Thing about HA is, it doesn't matter if you forget to switch it out. It performs quite well, no matter the encounter. If you forget to switch out DP on an encounter you really need HA for (like DA hc zerg), you're dead.

    TL:DR

    You didn't mention your progression / experience. If you're in a "beginner-average" level, you're fine with HA. HA has the easierst learning curve and the best net result if you use it as another cooldown / it's more predictable. If you're at like 11/13 HC progression or something like that, you should really look at DP more closely.

    Come 5.4 - especially if you plan on playing with Eternal Flame / 4pT16 - there is only DP. HA and SW are only niche abilities, depending on the boss fight. But DP should be the baseline.

    Have a look at this thread:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...set?p=22250580

    It has alot of discussion on HA/DP/SW and 5.4
    Last edited by Riemu2k3; 2013-09-02 at 08:43 AM.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Riemu2k3 View Post
    I like HA - I like it alot. It gives you some sort of safety net if you need it. If you have an encounter where you need a predictable SoTR Wall or have do endure strong physical damage for a longer peroid of time, HA is the way to go (doesnt matter if 10 or 25 man I would say).

    However, DP should be used for everything else (or SW in 5.4, some discussion about that one in another thread recently). Mifuyne is right, most 13/13hc paladins use DP on farmcontent if they really don't need HA (I only use HA for DA HC Zerg in the current content). DP gives you theoretically a higher uptime of SoTR when you sim it.

    From personal experience I can tell you, that especially if you have 4pt15, DP looks and feels superior. If you game DP correctly, you can have 15-20 secs of SoTR Wall without much trouble (at high haste values) given the right encounter. My longest DP proc chain was about 50 secs of SoTR Wall.

    I used HA quite alot on HC Progression (Horridon, Megaera Solo Tank, Ji-Kun, DA, Iron Qon, Twins). Mostly because a) I needed a long SoTR Wall (3 Dogs + Qon) b) I needed a reliable Burst at a specific time + defense (megaera solo tank) or c) I just fitted quite nicely with tank switches / encounter design (ji-kun, horridon). For everything else I used - or should have used - DP. Sometimes I just didn't switch it out because I forgot or was too lazy.

    Thing about HA is, it doesn't matter if you forget to switch it out. It performs quite well, no matter the encounter. If you forget to switch out DP on an encounter you really need HA for (like DA hc zerg), you're dead.

    TLR

    You didn't mention your progression / experience. If you're in a "beginner-average" level, you're fine with HA. HA has the easierst learning curve and the best net result if you use it as another cooldown / it's more predictable. If you're at like 11/13 HC progression or something like that, you should really look at DP more closely.

    Come 5.4 - especially if you plan on playing with Eternal Flame / 4pT16 - there is only DP. HA and SW are only niche abilities, depending on the boss fight. But DP should be the baseline.

    Have a look at this thread:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...set?p=22250580

    It has alot of discussion on HA/DP/SW and 5.4
    You are talking about tanking, however, the topic says this thread is about holy pallies.

    However, your insight of the matter was quite comprehensive.

  5. #5
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Oh, sorry guys - I guess I just skipped over the holy in the topic. Disregard my Post then!
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  6. #6
    I don't see the point of DP. It's just slightly more throughput throughout a fight.

    HA is a very strong healing cooldown, think Mehaera rampages or Durumu light phase and so on. I think the benefit of having a strong on-demand cooldown for predictable high damage phases outweighs the slightly higher throughput you would gain from normal phases where its arguably not needed.

  7. #7
    Pit Lord Mifuyne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    I don't see the point of DP. It's just slightly more throughput throughout a fight.

    HA is a very strong healing cooldown, think Mehaera rampages or Durumu light phase and so on. I think the benefit of having a strong on-demand cooldown for predictable high damage phases outweighs the slightly higher throughput you would gain from normal phases where its arguably not needed.
    Correct, it never actives when you want it and it chain procs at useless times.
    HA is just perfect for those damage heavy phases.
    DP also procs less when you use a skill with less then 3 HoPo's, making it sort of meh for blanketing EF.
    For those trying to take a 20- rank, they'd probably have to take DP and hope for a lucky chainproc.
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  8. #8
    The Patient
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    I personally only use it for tortos hc, but that's farm now, and raiding with a resto druid with walking tranq cheat feels already like im being boosted. other than that, always HA, always.

  9. #9
    The thing that made me switch to HA permanently was looking at WoL for every fight and realizing how few procs per fight you actually get. if you maximize your HA usage you easily get more holy power out of it.

    Perhaps I observed the WoL data incorrectly though, I just checked buff gains and assumed that was the right number of procs per fight.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariathe View Post
    The thing that made me switch to HA permanently was looking at WoL for every fight and realizing how few procs per fight you actually get. if you maximize your HA usage you easily get more holy power out of it.

    Perhaps I observed the WoL data incorrectly though, I just checked buff gains and assumed that was the right number of procs per fight.
    Nay, even for prot HA beats DP slightly normally. Fort holy you could only gain more HoPo out from DP, if you would/could spam HR->HR->HS endlessly. At HA you only have to do so during the duration of the CD, which is more plausible. You can maximize it's HoPo-gain easier.

  11. #11
    Aye, and it's reliable as others said. Perhaps DP will make a slight comeback in the next tier (not sure, haven't raided PTR) but for this one HA clearly shines.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    For holy you could only gain more HoPo out from DP, if you would/could spam HR->HR->HS endlessly.
    Which you can easily do with good gear on most fights in both the current tier and SoO. HA is reliable, DP is not, I prefer the latter, most people do not.

  13. #13
    The other thing you need to remember is that holy radiance effectively increases the healing of holy shock (inc. daybreak) and holy radiance while it is active. Sure, in total they only account for maybe 25% of your healing, but it is still a solid 7-8% healing increase just from that while it is active, not including the massive HP gains.

    There are a few cases where I would consider taking DP over HA, but they don't really occur this tier. If you have a fight with medium sustained damage and a burst phase every 3-4 minutes, you need to save HA for long periods. The other issue, although not really a problem at all anymore, is that HA doesn't really save mana - it just increases throughput. While it's up, I spam heals harder. With DP, you will have more mana but your maximum throughput is way lower. Who really cares about mana at this point though? Most of us aren't going pure spirit anymore anyways because throughput > regen with the current state of things.

  14. #14
    DP is best used when you're using a maximum HoPo rotation, so only with good gear and a good amount of spirit to perpetually do HR-HR-HS. HA, however, is guaranteed burst healing when you need it regardless of gear. Plus it can be combined with other CDs if you absolutely need to have even more healing.

    Come 5.4 both get a boost since HS will usually have a slightly shorter CD (due to players having at least some haste on gear) and a lower mana cost.
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  15. #15
    Blademaster Geekgurl's Avatar
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    All throughout ToT and PTR testing I have been using HA. What people have said above - it's just that it's predictable and allows you to prepared for a big AOE on the raid. I usually use Divine Favor in conjunction with it if I am trying to increase more EF stack counts.

    (I also pray at this point I haven't seen spirit shell come up.)

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