1. #1

    Enhance PvE Guidance

    Greetings all,

    I could use a bit of help on my PvE Enhancement Shaman. My concern is my rotation and use CDs. I know what the rotation should be and the need to line up all of our CDs to maximize burst damage. I just could use some guidance to see if I am actually doing it right. I am currently using EnhPriority and ShockAwe to help with my rotation. I have used EnhSim and compared the results to my logs and some things line up and somethings do not. For example, I have pulled 176K and 183K (single target) on Tortus which is higher than EnhSim gives me, but then on Durumu (sp?) it is 131K which is considerably less than EnhSim. I am still learning how to use the Sim so it is very likely that I am not using the Sim correctly. Which brings me to the community here. Any helpful thoughts and suggestions would be appreciative. The characters name, server and logs are below.Thank you.

    Name: Arrakus
    Server: Zul'gin (US)
    *Logs: worldoflogs.com/guilds/93963/ (Guild name: Logs of Dune)
    Note that there are ~1.5 months worth of logs there.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrakus View Post
    Greetings all,

    I could use a bit of help on my PvE Enhancement Shaman. My concern is my rotation and use CDs. I know what the rotation should be and the need to line up all of our CDs to maximize burst damage. I just could use some guidance to see if I am actually doing it right. I am currently using EnhPriority and ShockAwe to help with my rotation. I have used EnhSim and compared the results to my logs and some things line up and somethings do not. For example, I have pulled 176K and 183K (single target) on Tortus which is higher than EnhSim gives me, but then on Durumu (sp?) it is 131K which is considerably less than EnhSim. I am still learning how to use the Sim so it is very likely that I am not using the Sim correctly. Which brings me to the community here. Any helpful thoughts and suggestions would be appreciative. The characters name, server and logs are below.Thank you.

    Name: Arrakus
    Server: Zul'gin (US)
    *Logs: worldoflogs.com/guilds/93963/ (Guild name: Logs of Dune)
    Note that there are ~1.5 months worth of logs there.
    You're seeing disparities because tortos has a lot of chances to abuse mechanics to get higher numbers, whilst Durumu has a lot of chances for you to sacrifice DPS to actually help the raid (killing fog faster, offhealing, etc.)
    Enhancement Shaman / Feral Druid

    “All things are subject to interpretation, whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.”

  3. #3
    I thought that as well. But I was not sure if it was just me not using the correct rotation or it was the fight mechanic. Were you able to take a look at the logs and see if there were any glaring mistakes that I have been making?

  4. #4
    My Enh shaman can pull 350k 'burst' and around 200k sustain on fights such as Twin Consorts/HC Jin'Rokh, but others, such as Tortos, Durumu and Ji-kun it can drop dramatically to 118k sustain, without much room for bumping it up with any burst.
    From what I can see from your armoury page, (which may not be up to date) you are slightly below your Hit cap, which should be as close to 7.5% as possible; higher than 7.5 is more 'acceptable' than being below it, even by 0.25%. I also see that your expertise is only 5.94%. This should also be much closer to 7.5%. You may also want to consider changing EM talent to Ancestral Swiftness, for the passive haste. Of course this can be changed per fight according to your needs. Here is my character if you would to make any comparisons...Asiria, Khadgar EU. (Can't do links yet!)

    What I would say is to ignore any simulation data...from what I have heard they are not great at accounting for heavy movement 'damage sacrificing' fights, such as Durumu.
    Personally, I believe my 'rotation' to be standard, and you could probably find it anywhere on the internet, and it might even be built-in to any helper add-ons that you use;
    Since my guild cleared ToT, I rarely pre-pot unless I know that Bloodlust/Timewarp is going to be popped as soon as combat is initiated. I use 300 agility food which is then boosted to 600 by pandaren racial. This is mainly because the potions are so expensive to make on my server!

    Before blowing all of my damage cooldowns (which I have as a single 'derps' macro) I begin a normal rotation on the boss. Sometime I will bring out my Fire elemental early so that I do not have to 'destroy' a searing totem. So I use Unleash elements, followed by a flame shock, which is standard. I will then use a Stormlash. This is when I use my macro which will reset my Stormstrike when I enter ascendance. A stormlash totem during ascendance can provide a nice boost...

    I never cast a lightning bolt without having less than 3 stacks of maelstrom; any less than three and it is classed as a hard cast. If you have recently used a Fire or Earth shock, but your Unleash Elements is off cooldown, it can provide a nice bonus damage if used before a lightning bolt. I see that you have your 4-set (lucky!) so you should think of taking advantage of this if you haven't been already, as this is nice way to not 'waste' any extra maelstrom charges that you get.
    You should also keep a close eye on the cooldown of your wolves- your 4-set will probably be reducing the CD of them quite a bit.

    Having said all of this...I would personally be quite chuffed about beating a mage and a warlock in any fight! Honestly...you're doing great

    Kind regards,
    A slightly jealous Shaman

  5. #5
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sophai View Post
    I never cast a lightning bolt without having less than 3 stacks of maelstrom; any less than three and it is classed as a hard cast.
    As far as I'm aware any non-instant is a hardcast, so 4 or lower stacks. Everyone has their line where they draw and don't cast. I tend to play at 2+.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrakus View Post
    Greetings all,

    I could use a bit of help on my PvE Enhancement Shaman. My concern is my rotation and use CDs. I know what the rotation should be and the need to line up all of our CDs to maximize burst damage. I just could use some guidance to see if I am actually doing it right. I am currently using EnhPriority and ShockAwe to help with my rotation. I have used EnhSim and compared the results to my logs and some things line up and somethings do not. For example, I have pulled 176K and 183K (single target) on Tortus which is higher than EnhSim gives me, but then on Durumu (sp?) it is 131K which is considerably less than EnhSim. I am still learning how to use the Sim so it is very likely that I am not using the Sim correctly. Which brings me to the community here. Any helpful thoughts and suggestions would be appreciative. The characters name, server and logs are below.Thank you.

    Name: Arrakus
    Server: Zul'gin (US)
    *Logs: worldoflogs.com/guilds/93963/ (Guild name: Logs of Dune)
    Note that there are ~1.5 months worth of logs there.
    On Tortos you're not using Fire Nova on the bats at all, that is a massive dps gain and takes a lot of pressure off the tanks/healers. On Durumu your damage does seem a bit low but I can't immediately see anything wrong with the logs but it could have to do with the next point:

    I'm not sure how to put this but you are gemmed/reforged/enchanted incorrectly. I know 5.3 won't last much longer but as of right now you are very low on haste and should be gemming for haste over agi. You are missing wrist enchants and several of your gems are green quality over blue, these things add up an make a big difference over the course of a fight. Also make sure you are always at 7.45%+ hit/exp.

    Oh and if you're using EnhPrio be sure to realize that it's not optimizing your MW usage profitably, if you have at least 1 or 2 stacks of maelstrom weapon and 2+ seconds before an ability comes off cooldown it's generally better to cast than wait for 5 stacks like it seems to recommend.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Rangar View Post
    Oh and if you're using EnhPrio be sure to realize that it's not optimizing your MW usage profitably, if you have at least 1 or 2 stacks of maelstrom weapon and 2+ seconds before an ability comes off cooldown it's generally better to cast than wait for 5 stacks like it seems to recommend.
    its actually sugesting you to cast LB in situation you discribed, at least if you didynt changed something in it default prioirity list

    Code:
    local Priority = {
    	Enhancement = { -- priorities used in enhancement spec
    	    "HS", -- healing surge for when the shit hits the fan
    		"WF", -- weapon buffs (windfury)
    		"FT", -- weapon buffs (flametongue)
    		"LS", -- Lightning Shield if it isn't active on you
    
    		-- actual damage spells
    
    		"EM", -- Elemental Mastery
    		"FE", -- Fire Elemental, if Bloodlust up
    		"AS", -- Ascendance
    
    		"ST0", -- Searing Totem, with no fire totem up
    		"EB1+", -- Elemental Blast, if you have it and mw > 1
    		"UEF", -- Unleash elements, if specced to unleash fury
    		"LB5", -- Lightning Bolt if there are 5 Maelstrom stacks
    		"SS", -- Stormstrike / Stormblast
    		"FS0", -- Flame Shock if there's unleash flame buff and it's not ticking
    		"LL", -- Lava Lash, with 5 searing flames stacks
    		"FS", -- Flame Shock if there's unleash flame buff and has less than 3s remaining
    		"UE", -- Unleash elements
    		"LB3+", -- mw stacks more than 3, and uf debuff on (not during Ascendance)
    		"AN", -- Ancestral Swiftness, if you have it
    		"LBA", -- Lightning Bolt if ancestral switness is up
    		-- "FSX", -- Flame Shock, if UF is up
    		"ES", -- Earth Shock
    		"FR", -- feral spirit
    		"EE", -- Earth Elemental Totem
    		"LB1+", -- lightning bolt when more than 1 stack of mw (not during Ascendance)
    		--"STX" -- searing totem, even with stacks up

  8. #8
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    If you're higher on Tortos than on Durumu or Ji-kun (especially on normal), you'Re doing something wrong. Durumu is one of the few fights that lets you pretty much constantly single target nuke without distraction, you should be pulling your highest numbers here. Tortos have some AOE spam but that's not exactly our strong suit, at least before 5.4. And on Ji-kun you should be getting your highest numbers if you abuse the nutrients buff correctly.

    Apart from that your reforges and gems don'T seem optimal at a glance, make sure you're using helps like askmrrobot.com to help you with that, it's just so much more reliable when u know how to use it properly.

    The rest is just learning your cooldown management properly, that's what Enh is all about. Only on some fights will popping everything as soon as it's ready be beneficial, you want to time it for when you can maximize the benefit.

    On Durumu u should be pulling roughly 20k more in your gear, off the top of my head from what i can remember (i'm 540+ now).

  9. #9
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    If you're higher on Tortos than on Durumu or Ji-kun (especially on normal), you'Re doing something wrong. Durumu is one of the few fights that lets you pretty much constantly single target nuke without distraction, you should be pulling your highest numbers here. Tortos have some AOE spam but that's not exactly our strong suit, at least before 5.4. And on Ji-kun you should be getting your highest numbers if you abuse the nutrients buff correctly.
    No.

    Tortos not only has a damage buff but the aoe will increase your dps regardless. Durumu <= Tortos < Jikun is pretty standard. It's natural to do more dps on ji'kun normal than on heroic if you're using the nutrient buffs due to fight length.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  10. #10
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    You may be right on Tortos and we were just not positioning our bats correctly. But Ji-kun is always my highest, we used nutrients on heroic as well, ran the 2 nest tactic.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    You may be right on Tortos and we were just not positioning our bats correctly. But Ji-kun is always my highest, we used nutrients on heroic as well, ran the 2 nest tactic.
    Heroic zerging is a completely different world of DPS to doing Ji'Kun properly. I think originally I was doing 200k in progress and now we zerg it I can be upwards of 400k.

    Tortos should be higher than durumu because you can easily get 2+ novas off which pads DPS quite a lot, especially if turtles are being used right and the concussion debuff is on them. Durumu is mostly single target, and on heroic walls die relatively quick and are quite spread so you don't see the same effect as you do on Tortos.
    Enhancement Shaman / Feral Druid

    “All things are subject to interpretation, whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.”

  12. #12
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Ji'kun progression is dependent on where you are. 200k (which I imagine was still higher than durumu at the least at the time) is what I've seen as pretty normal just doing nests no zerging. On 10man 1 dps stays on the platform with 2 groups, so they can pick up a feather on first lowers and a feather on second lowers and happily do 300k.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  13. #13
    Thanks to everyone for all of the help.
    Apologize for the delayed response, I did not know this thread was getting some attention until someone whispered me on my server.

    I actually did not notice that I was under exp cap until I read this. Must have missed that when I got some recent gear upgrades. So I am now at 7.59/7.54 Hit/exp respectively. I have also upgrade all the green gems, however I am not going to enchant my bracers considering 5.4 is almost upon us and the enchant is going for 1k+ on my server. Knowing my luck, I will enchant the bracers and the first item that drops in 5.4 will be new bracers.

    I have been using askmrrobot a lot for my reforges and stat weights. I have read on EJs and on here that eventually haste should win out over agility, however my stat weights still show agility over everything by considerable margin.

    Agi: 5.1, MH DPS: 3.48 OH DPS: 3.08 Haste: 2.25

    Again, this could be user error and I am not imputing the correct values or reading the information correctly. Or it could be that I am still not at the gear level where haste begins to top out. If someone has more information about this and can help me with how I should be properly gem, enchant, and reforge at my current ilevel I would be very much grateful.

    From what I have read (again from EJs and here) Elemental Mastery is currently the preferable talent in that tier. Has something changed or am I missing something where I should be changing over to Ancestral Swiftness?

    I have not change EnhPrio from the default setting and often cast LB with four MW stacks if StormStrike is up. I will also cast LB with 1-2 stacks of MW if I am BL+Ascendance and no other spell is up.

    Another question, regarding the T15 4-piece should one be popping wolfs on every CD or should it be lined up with another CD? I have been using them on every CD ever since I got the 4-piece unless there was another ability coming off CD within 10-15 seconds. Seemed to me that we would want to keep the wolfs out as much as possible.

    Again, thanks to everyone for the advice and help. Greatly appreciate it.
    Last edited by Arrakus; 2013-09-04 at 01:18 AM.

  14. #14
    I find Durumu and Ji Kun to be good tests of DPS. Ji Kun because I dont do nests and can smash out Spirit Walk and pretty much get 100% uptime on the boss. Depending on what classes you have/how you do bats, will depend on your Tortos DPS but I wouldnt even look at it. Its just not a good indication of your single target DPS.

    I dislike Ask Mr Robot and I use Wowreforge or AMR in conjunction with Simcraft.

    I dont know if its changed from mid ToT but it was flat out telling players Haste and that was and still is leading a lot of Enhance Shaman astray, however your gear is probably at the point where your stats should look like Agi > Haste > Mastery. So you arent doing anything wrong there.

    Ive never used EnhPrio however its probably telling you to use MW4 instead of SS because SS will waste potential stacks (unless I read your post wrong is it telling you to do that or are you just doing it?).

    As you start to get better accustomed to the priority you will probably find yourself using LB at 2 stacks a lot more anyway. Castable on the move or during downtime helps a lot to clear those stacks.

    Use wolves as soon as they come up. Theyre not worth sitting there and trying to line up with stuff. They do stuff all damage. Just keep them up, keep that self healing rolling. Im fairly sure theyre dynamic anyway so if stuff procs *shrug*

    EM vs AS. Its totally a fight by fight basis. Fights where there are periods of time away from the boss. Use EM - such as Jinrohk. EM will line up almost perfectly with each pool. If youre on a boss with low downtime, use AS. Theres a good thread on Totemspot that has a thread with what people have been using each fight. Most fights I tend to stick with AS, but again will depend on your guilds strat, I have a lot of "sit there and DPS" jobs.
    Last edited by Murderdoll; 2013-09-04 at 01:50 AM.

  15. #15
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    The reason haste scales so high atm is due to the RPPM trinkets and the legendary Meta gem. At certain ilvls with the meta (52x and upwards), haste will start becoming progressively better. This will very likely change back to mastery > haste again in 5.4 looking at the RPPM change and the new trinkets.

    Looking at EM vs AS it is dependant on the fight, however I personally always use EM regardless of the fight in conjunction with Fire Elemental glyph, which makes both talents worthwhile in combination. Especially with 4 set bonus it pretty much makes all your wolves and all your elementals profit from that haste buff, usually makes for higher dps overall through more and higher burst phases.

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