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  1. #1

    Where now for Horde-Alliance relations?

    After the Siege, Garrosh is dead and stuff, but can that really be considered an end to it? I think not. The Pandaria campaign was very bitter, and it's without dispute that while Garrosh ordered the atrocities at Theramore, Southshore and Gilneas, so much of the Horde was complicit and actively involved in these that you can't just consider it over and done with with his death. The Blood Elves and Goblins in particular have a lot to answer for in Theramore, the Forsaken in Gilneas and Southshore.

    Further, it's suggested that Sylvannas raises Alliance troops to fight for the Forsaken during the Siege which is pretty reprehensible.

    The recovery of Y'Shaarj too was spearheaded by the Reliquary and Goblins, again 'acting under orders' isn't much of a defense. If Garrosh knew what it was capable of, then it's ridiculous to suggest the Blood Elves especially didn't know, or hadn't figured it out. It's not like Garrosh really made much of a secret of what he had in mind in terms of weaponising it anyway. Still, they went on and recovered it.

    I'm just not sure how relations could be normalised so quickly after such a bitter conflict, regardless of whos put in charge, because each of the Horde's factions' leaders is still guilty of at the very least complicity of some of the more terrible acts - Lor'themar, Gallywix and Sylvannas especially, but even Baine was at the forefront of the initial assault on Theramore. Even a change of Warchief to someone with a "freer" pass, like Thrall or Vol'jin wouldn't change or make up for what they did.

  2. #2
    All complexities aside, the Night Elves, The Alliance and brand new fledgling Horde came together and saved the world from Archimonde. The Orcs went back to Durotar and setup a great fortress city, contacted the Forsaken and became a "happy" little family. The Alliance became split between two continents, thanks to the Night Elves agreeing to join their faction, as opposed to the Horde, and at some point around the time that, for no apparent reason whatsoever, a world war broke out that covered practically every city, town and village on the two major continents.

    There doesn't need to be a lore reason for them to go back to war. They just will.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    All complexities aside, the Night Elves, The Alliance and brand new fledgling Horde came together and saved the world from Archimonde. The Orcs went back to Durotar and setup a great fortress city, contacted the Forsaken and became a "happy" little family. The Alliance became split between two continents, thanks to the Night Elves agreeing to join their faction, as opposed to the Horde, and at some point around the time that, for no apparent reason whatsoever, a world war broke out that covered practically every city, town and village on the two major continents.

    There doesn't need to be a lore reason for them to go back to war. They just will.
    I can see that. In fact that's really the point, I can't see how finishing Garrosh ends this one.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    All complexities aside, the Night Elves, The Alliance and brand new fledgling Horde came together and saved the world from Archimonde. The Orcs went back to Durotar and setup a great fortress city, contacted the Forsaken and became a "happy" little family. The Alliance became split between two continents, thanks to the Night Elves agreeing to join their faction, as opposed to the Horde, and at some point around the time that, for no apparent reason whatsoever, a world war broke out that covered practically every city, town and village on the two major continents.

    There doesn't need to be a lore reason for them to go back to war. They just will.
    War didnt break out until Cata. It was a cold wart with small-scale disputes over territory in Arathi, Alterac and Warsong. Please do not confuse this with a world war. The fact that Theramore was a human colony close to Orgrimmar, founded by a belligerent Alliance general, was enough for Horde-Alliance tensions to remain strong throughout vanilla.

  5. #5
    for all the talk of cold war I don't think US ever actually engaged soviet forces anywhere at any time (might be wrong on that one), while the horde and alliance had obvious rather large scale conflicts
    so it's more like a low intensity war than a cold war
    plus the forsaken doing gruesome experiments on humans that the rest of the horde turned a blind eye to

    and yes I'm quite sure about 20 mins after the siege ends the horde will attack the alliance again, like they always do

  6. #6
    We all have a yub nub ewok party and some interspecies sex orgy

    Then there will be a huge misunderstanding over who pays the bill

    Then its back to the good old war

    Put it simply there will never be total peace between the factions PVP demands it so yeah its back to the vanilla cold war snore feast killing nagas/demons or whatever the next xpac is

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimo View Post
    War didnt break out until Cata. It was a cold wart with small-scale disputes over territory in Arathi, Alterac and Warsong. Please do not confuse this with a world war.
    World War II was just a handful of skirmishes across Eurasia and then North America. The "it's not a war because two armies did not meet in direct battle on a specific battlefield lead by the leaders of their country while singing their national anthems" doesn't keep it from being a war.

  8. #8
    Garry didn't commit any atrocities at Theramore.

  9. #9
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    If they had any sense it would be moving towards removing the faction barriers for PVE content as we the "heroes" should have always been able to ally with each other, even while our factions were at war (which also means you can keep BGs and the like). But since Blizzard refuses to do that, even when it would make sense, it'll probably be another tense situation like before despite us having common enemies and not actively engaging in anything more than skirmishes.

    I still maintain hope they go for a Rift-style "faction as fiction" removal of the faction boundaries some day for PVE and RP servers.
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  10. #10
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    After the Siege, Garrosh is dead and stuff, but can that really be considered an end to it? I think not.
    Oh, sorry, I thought this thread was aimed at trying for an open debate, rather then a forced contrivance.
    Big thanks to Davillage for awesome signature

  11. #11
    Orcish part of the Horde is pretty much beheaded now, and their military decimated, whomever is left in charge will just have his hands busy with putting Orgrimmar together.

    Trolls, tauren, goblins and Horde pandas have little scores to settle with the Alliance, if any. BE are likely to be forgiven and maybe even get re-invited into Dalaran considering Jaina let off her steam.

    Now there's only Sylvanas, and it depends if she decides to lay low or exploit the current weakness of the Horde.

    But overall it's pretty much the moment of peace similar to the end of WW2. Everybody's tired of war, Hitler defeated and his ex-allies stepping aside and saying they have nothing to do with this guy.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Oh, sorry, I thought this thread was aimed at trying for an open debate, rather then a forced contrivance.
    I thought a debate involved sharing thoughts. If you think it gives us closure, prey tell why.

  13. #13
    The only real issue between the Horde and Alliance afterall this is going to be Sylvannas and her raising of random troops.. but even the rest of the horde aren't exactly happy about this.

    I don't really get how, unless some crazy shit goes down in the end cinematic, the Horde and Alliance can still be at war against each other after all of this.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasula Elfbiter View Post
    Orcish part of the Horde is pretty much beheaded now, and their military decimated, whomever is left in charge will just have his hands busy with putting Orgrimmar together.

    Trolls, tauren, goblins and Horde pandas have little scores to settle with the Alliance, if any. BE are likely to be forgiven and maybe even get re-invited into Dalaran considering Jaina let off her steam.

    Now there's only Sylvanas, and it depends if she decides to lay low or exploit the current weakness of the Horde.

    But overall it's pretty much the moment of peace similar to the end of WW2. Everybody's tired of war, Hitler defeated and his ex-allies stepping aside and saying they have nothing to do with this guy.
    Why would we forgive the Blood Elves? They built the Mana Bomb, they stole the Divine Bell and they were central to Garrosh's discovery and acquisition of Y'Shaarj's heart. Either Lor'themar was complicit, or ignorant of his own faction's activities. Neither are easily forgivable for an important figurehead and his faction as a whole. Blood Elves were central to everything the 'True Horde' was doing right up until 5.3.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    All complexities aside, the Night Elves, The Alliance and brand new fledgling Horde came together and saved the world from Archimonde. The Orcs went back to Durotar and setup a great fortress city, contacted the Forsaken and became a "happy" little family. The Alliance became split between two continents, thanks to the Night Elves agreeing to join their faction, as opposed to the Horde, and at some point around the time that, for no apparent reason whatsoever, a world war broke out that covered practically every city, town and village on the two major continents.

    There doesn't need to be a lore reason for them to go back to war. They just will.
    You... go buy "Cycle of Hatred" novel... now!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    The only real issue between the Horde and Alliance afterall this is going to be Sylvannas and her raising of random troops.. but even the rest of the horde aren't exactly happy about this.
    Deep down I kind of wish she ends up like Moira from One Piece... I really do.

  16. #16
    Why would we forgive the Blood Elves? They built the Mana Bomb, they stole the Divine Bell and they were central to Garrosh's discovery and acquisition of Y'Shaarj's heart. Either Lor'themar was complicit, or ignorant of his own faction's activities. Neither are easily forgivable for an important figurehead and his faction as a whole. Blood Elves were central to everything the 'True Horde' was doing right up until 5.3.
    In 5.1 Varian was ready to accept BE into the Alliance, and in 5.2 Jaina readily accepted ceasefire with BE forces. I think it would not be hard to do "we'll pretend Darnassus never happened and you pretend Dalaran never happened" at the peace talks. BE were instrumental to the Siege and the closest to Alliance races in spirit, so I doubt Varian and Jaina will stick to their grudges.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    The only real issue between the Horde and Alliance afterall this is going to be Sylvannas and her raising of random troops.. but even the rest of the horde aren't exactly happy about this.
    Not only was Lor'themar not going to allow her to raise dead elves but he didn't seem to approve of her subsequent idea to raise dead Alliance troops. I believe he says something along the lines of "Then that's between you and the Alliance then, isn't it?"

    Love how he's grown enough of a spine to rebuke Sylvanas but I wonder if he'd really stand by if the Alliance decided to go after her for it.

    This all assumes she really follows through, has anyone here seen these scenes on the PTR to see if she raises anything?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Garrosh ordered the atrocities at Theramore, Southshore and Gilneas
    I'm pretty sure Southshore and Gilneas were Forsaken actions, not Garrosh. Heck, he even told Sylvanas NOT to use the plague, but she did. Don't blame Garrosh for Sylvanas being an evil bitch. Oh, and Theramore was the prime military target and threat to Orgrimmar, it had to be taken out in times of war. Mana bomb or not, the civilians had plenty of time to flee so I wouldn't call it an atrocity.

    Anyway as for the question, where do Horde-Alliance relations go from here? I suspect that the Alliance and Horde will both be too busy with their own problems to care about eachother for a little while. Eventually they'll be back fighting eachother though, that's what this franchise is about after all. And after an Alliance victory like this I think it only makes sense that the Horde gains some small victories again here and there. Can't have one side feel like the ultimate loser, right? I'm sure Blizzard wouldn't do that to their fans.

  19. #19
    Epic! Aeula's Avatar
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    Varian lets them pick a new warchief and leaves peacefully, according to blizzard.

    Personally i hope the war continues and the blood elves finally bring dalaran and the kirin tor down.

    As for sylvanas ? Meh, couldn't care less about her, though i do love how she and lor'themar bicker during the galakras encounter in SoO.
    Especially 'Oh my, what has overcome our dark lady ?' when she dies. :P

  20. #20
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimo View Post
    War didnt break out until Cata. It was a cold wart with small-scale disputes over territory in Arathi, Alterac and Warsong. Please do not confuse this with a world war. The fact that Theramore was a human colony close to Orgrimmar, founded by a belligerent Alliance general, was enough for Horde-Alliance tensions to remain strong throughout vanilla.
    IMO we will go back to these, to a cold war with some conflicts around the world (Gilneas)

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