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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    I'm pretty sure Southshore and Gilneas were Forsaken actions, not Garrosh. Heck, he even told Sylvanas NOT to use the plague, but she did. Don't blame Garrosh for Sylvanas being an evil bitch. Oh, and Theramore was the prime military target and threat to Orgrimmar, it had to be taken out in times of war. Mana bomb or not, the civilians had plenty of time to flee so I wouldn't call it an atrocity.
    Think you need to read this. Garrosh was at Gilneas. That aside, the actions of Sylvannas either under his command or otherwise pretty much rule out any lovey dovey ending to Seige between Horde and Alliance.

    Anyway as for the question, where do Horde-Alliance relations go from here? I suspect that the Alliance and Horde will both be too busy with their own problems to care about eachother for a little while. Eventually they'll be back fighting eachother though, that's what this franchise is about after all. And after an Alliance victory like this I think it only makes sense that the Horde gains some small victories again here and there. Can't have one side feel like the ultimate loser, right? I'm sure Blizzard wouldn't do that to their fans.
    I don't think as an Alliance player, in light of everything the Horde have done, that Siege will feel like a victory regardless of outcome.

    Edit: Also, in response to whether Theramore was an atrocity; civilians only got out while Garrosh waited for the Alliance to bring more military forces in. Nothing humanitarian about it, especially when you see that he captured and imprisoned some of those who did escape.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-09-02 at 02:14 PM.

  2. #22
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    I'm pretty sure Southshore and Gilneas were Forsaken actions, not Garrosh. Heck, he even told Sylvanas NOT to use the plague, but she did. Don't blame Garrosh for Sylvanas being an evil bitch.
    You're wrong, Gilneas is Garrosh fault, he was the one who pushed the Forsaken attack Gilneas even when they didn't wanted to, also Garrosh was trying to take the Forsakens biggest weapon, the plague, and without it they would have lost that war...

    And what about Southshore?

    Southshore was the largest Alliance settlement in the whole Hillsbrad Foothills and it served as a base for Alliance military forces...

    So.... they just destroyed their alliance base near lordaeron

  3. #23
    I don't think as an Alliance player, in light of everything the Horde have done, that Siege will feel like a victory regardless of outcome.
    As a player who mainly plays Alliance now and was greatly turned off by Horde favouritism in cata, I am fully satisfied by the Siege.
    I get to lay my fel fire on the ass of the very person responsible for every Horde atrocity since 2010.
    We cut out the cancer and punish those who did wrong against Alliance. Considering the Siege breaks the Horde's backbone, the orcish military, I honestly don't mind Varian sparing innocents and letting them elect a new warchief. It's like letting German people live on and tend to their business after Nazi regime's defeat. A pretty normal thing to do.
    Last edited by Rasula Elfbiter; 2013-09-02 at 02:28 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by maxilian View Post
    And what about Southshore?

    Southshore was the largest Alliance settlement in the whole Hillsbrad Foothills and it served as a base for Alliance military forces...

    So.... they just destroyed their alliance base near lordaeron
    And made an admiral of the Alliance turn into a smaller Garrosh with better equipment. Hillsbrad was loaded with civilians and some of those who were blighted to death were the parents of an Alliance military leader.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasula Elfbiter View Post
    As a player who mainly plays Alliance now and was greatly turned off by Horde favouritism in cata, I am fully satisfied by the Siege.
    I get to lay my fel fire on the ass of the very person responsible for every Horde atrocity since 2010.
    We cut out the cancer and punish those who did wrong against Alliance. Considering the Siege breaks the Horde's backbone, the orcish military, I honestly don't care Varian sparing innocents and letting them elect a new warchief. It's like letting German people live on and tend to their business after Nazi regime's defeat. A pretty normal thing to do.
    Yeah, but we're letting the Forsaken, Goblins and Blood Elves get away with their own actions and complicity in Garrosh's plans?

    If you want to compare with WW2, the Germans really weren't allowed to get on with business. The country was cut in two, it's capital divided in two, and both conquering sides set up their own military installations on its turf and a lot remain there to this day. Japan also continued in the conflict and went on to be nuked, and while the Italians switched sides, Mussolini was caught and executed.

  6. #26
    Forsaken barely did anything in MoP, and war in Gilneas and Lordaeron is far from over - it's just paused. But on Kalimdor and Pandaria, it feels a victory.
    Goblins get away with them actually being repressed by Garrosh in the end. Besides, was there any centralized goblin support of Kor'kron? Most gobbos I see there are mercenaries.
    BE... Well, as I said before, Varian was ready to talk peace with them AFTER Theramore, and even Jaina readily accepted a ceasefire. They are an Alliance race at their heart, and the Horde's weakest link.

    What I meant in WW2 example, is that nobody would have demanded a return genocide of Germans as a nation. And orcs remain as de-militarized as Germans ended after WW2 - Kor'kron and orc fleet are lost for good.

  7. #27
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    What exactly do the goblins and blood elves as a whole have to answer for?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    What exactly do the goblins and blood elves as a whole have to answer for?
    Searching for, finding, and handing over the Heart of Y'Shaarj to Garrosh. Building the Mana Bomb that destroyed Theramore (and strongly implied involvement in taking the Focusing Iris from the Blue Dragonflight in order to build it). Stealing the Divine Bell from Darnassus...

    The Goblins are very obviously mercenaries devoid of real loyalty to anything other than material wealth, whereas the Blood Elves paint their own leader as at best incompetent, or at worse, completely devoid of any command or influence over his own forces. And yet people think he could make a good Warchief?!

  9. #29
    In realistic circumstances, the Horde would be a pariah that neither the Alliance nor any neutral faction would ever trust again, or for many, many generations. The Alliance would craft a global political framework around the Horde, essentially barring the faction from the "community of the civilized world."

    In WoW circumstances, the Horde retains its credibility and dignity (somehow) and both factions retain their monolithic hate for each other. Because Metzen said so.

    The end.
    Last edited by Noin; 2013-09-02 at 03:13 PM.

  10. #30
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    What exactly do the goblins and blood elves as a whole have to answer for?
    Blood Elves have to answer for why they let Proudmoore ruin the "join the side that doesn't suck" effort and pick it up where it left off.
    If it's not an elf, leave it on the shelf.
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  11. #31
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    I'm sure Thrall and Jaina will be bff after this >.<

  12. #32
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Searching for, finding, and handing over the Heart of Y'Shaarj to Garrosh. Building the Mana Bomb that destroyed Theramore (and strongly implied involvement in taking the Focusing Iris from the Blue Dragonflight in order to build it). Stealing the Divine Bell from Darnassus...
    garrosh maneuvered the blood elves into patsies for things he orchestrated. Lorthemar was genuinely unaware of them, Aethas Sunreaver wasn't and I think he should be put on the gallows at the end for selling out to Hellscream (but he won't)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Noin View Post
    In realistic circumstances
    In realistic circumstances the Horde would cease to be, Horde races would either align themselves with the Alliance and receive aid in rebuilding or go solo and pick up the pieces themselves, Orgrimmar would be an Alliance city and Thrall would be an Alliance vassal with anyone loyal to him staying in the city while the last remnants of surviving Garrosh loyalists were rounded up and summarily executed, along with any other war criminals in the Horde overall. and if WoW weren't an MMO GC basically said an ending like this could easily be expected, but it's not and Horde players would never stop bitching and moaning about getting a realistic ending to the war.
    If it's not an elf, leave it on the shelf.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Blade View Post
    garrosh maneuvered the blood elves into patsies for things he orchestrated. Lorthemar was genuinely unaware of them, Aethas Sunreaver wasn't and I think he should be put on the gallows at the end for selling out to Hellscream (but he won't)
    "Oh, but Lor'themar didn't know", is a weak and stupid reason for him to be let off the hook. He should have known (his lack of knowledge showing his own weakness of leadership), but even if he had, do you think he would have put a stop to it? Or would he have carried on, like Sylvannas continued on against Gilneas with the Plague? Under threat of being cut loose to deal with the Alliance alone.

  14. #34
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Searching for, finding, and handing over the Heart of Y'Shaarj to Garrosh.
    Granted.

    Building the Mana Bomb that destroyed Theramore
    The only blood elf with any overt knowledge of it was kicked out for being a traitor. The forces Theron actually sent had no clue about it and disapproved of its use.

    (and strongly implied involvement in taking the Focusing Iris from the Blue Dragonflight in order to build it).
    Not really. Their escort was explicitly killed by conventional Horde troops and weaponry in ToW.

    Stealing the Divine Bell from Darnassus...
    You mean the heist that a) Garrosh instigated himself, and b) deliberately pinned blame on the Sunreavers for, when only a select few of them (led by a guy Garrosh had personally threatened with death two quests prior) actually helped out in?

    The entire heist amounted to nothing anyway. There were no casualties in Darnassus at all, and the only thing Garrosh accomplished with his new toy was to corrupt and kill a few orcs before it was destroyed.

    None of this is something to hold over entire races. At most they're incidents manipulated by a guy these same people are about to help kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Blade View Post
    In realistic circumstances the Horde would cease to be, Horde races would either align themselves with the Alliance and receive aid in rebuilding or go solo and pick up the pieces themselves, Orgrimmar would be an Alliance city and Thrall would be an Alliance vassal with anyone loyal to him staying in the city while the last remnants of surviving Garrosh loyalists were rounded up and summarily executed, along with any other war criminals in the Horde overall. and if WoW weren't an MMO GC basically said an ending like this could easily be expected, but it's not and Horde players would never stop bitching and moaning about getting a realistic ending to the war.
    I agree. They should never have pushed a war story without dedicating themselves to painting a realistic ending to it.
    Last edited by Zaelsino; 2013-09-02 at 03:33 PM.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Yeah, but we're letting the Forsaken, Goblins and Blood Elves get away with their own actions and complicity in Garrosh's plans?
    Would you have preferred it had the Horde burnt Stormwind to the ground and put Varian's head on a Pike before deciding to remove Garrosh? No?

    Then quit complaining ffs.


    This is a game with players occupying both "sides" of the conflict. The story has to one that both sides can live with. I equate your demands with "Alliance must win. Horde must lose". It is an attitude that is neither mature nor constructive.

    If you play through the IoT scenarios, Taran Zhu at the end of it scolds both Jaina and Lor'Themar for their immature attitudes of answering act of aggression with a counter action that simply leads to a spiral of conflict - much like some on these threads like to do. Multiple leaders, on both factions have been shown to be more grown up, and capable of learning to walk away for the sake of peace. Included are

    Varian,
    Moira,
    Tyrande,
    Anduin,
    even Jaina


    Lor'Themar,
    Vol'Jin,
    Baine,
    Dezco.

    This expansion is not about the villain Garrosh. It's about how the real heroes respond to the crisis.

  16. #36
    I have no idea how the Horde and Alliance will manage to continue to fight, I mean its odd. One of the main premises of the world is the back story of Alliance Vs. Horde. Something that would have made more since to me would have been. The Alliances teams up with Garrosh to assist in destroying the non "real" members of the horde. As this seems like it would have never worked out because of Garrosh's choices with Theramore. I could have seen the Alliance double cross Garrosh in the end and basically win the war but then we are back at the what now? So tops to Blizzard when they figure it out. As for the Horde leaders they're all traitors to the Horde. Even tho Garrosh made bad decisions as a leader(sorta) the other Horde members should have stuck by him as he is there commander in chief(USA) Then again this is a rebellion so WINWIN?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I need to simplify that. Alliance team up with Garrosh basically to shrink the Hordes numbers then double cross him.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    Granted.

    The only blood elf with any overt knowledge of it was kicked out for being a traitor. The forces Theron actually sent had no clue about it and disapproved of its use.
    Ignorance isn't usually considered a defense.

    Not really. Their escort was explicitly killed by conventional Horde troops and weaponry in ToW.
    No, they were explicitly stated to be powerful Mages and Warlocks as the remnants of magic was still in the air when Kalec discovered what happened. Poweful Mages and Warlocks, in Northrend, with enough power to overcome some of the most powerful Blue Dragons... Who then go on to build a Mana Bomb with it, Mana Bombs being a BElf specialty. Yes, it's circumstantial, but there aren't too many dots to join together here.

    You mean the heist that a) Garrosh instigated himself, and b) deliberately pinned blame on the Sunreavers for, when only a select few of them (led by a guy Garrosh had personally threatened with death two quests prior) actually helped out in?

    The entire heist amounted to nothing anyway. There were no casualties in Darnassus at all, and the only thing Garrosh accomplished with his new toy was to corrupt and kill a few orcs before it was destroyed.
    I don't think that it amounted to nothing is really the point. It could have amounted to much more - and given that #1, was 'granted'; that has amounted to much more.

    None of this is something to hold over entire races. At most they're incidents manipulated by a guy these same people are about to help kill.
    Using the raised dead of the Alliance as soldiers, with the only comments about it being 'don't do that with our dead'. These are leaders who either went in with their eyes wide open and willing, or they're weak leaders who were manipulated and buckled under threat and coercion. The reality is probably somewhere in between, which makes them and their followers far from innocent.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-09-02 at 03:53 PM.

  18. #38
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    No, they were explicitly stated to be powerful Mages and Warlocks as the remnants of magic was still in the air when Kalec discovered what happened. Poweful Mages and Warlocks, in Northrend, with enough power to overcome some of the most powerful Blue Dragons... Who then go on to build a Mana Bomb with it, Mana Bombs being a BElf specialty. Yes, it's circumstantial, but there aren't too many dots to join together here.
    The bombing of Theramore itself was no atrocity, it was a legitimate move ,a dick one but legitimate nonetheless, of course the Alliance can demand reparation for it, but thats about it.


    Using the raised dead of the Alliance as soldiers, with the only comments about it being 'don't do that with our dead'. These are leaders who either went in with their eyes wide open and willing, or they're weak leaders who were manipulated and buckled under threat and coercion. The reality is probably somewhere in between, which makes them and their followers far from innocent.
    They are not innocent, but in a good position to negotiate and they will most likely get away with most, heck they would have gotten away with all, if it hadn't been for the Dalaran purge. Knowing how to pick your battles does not make such people weak leaders, but smart ones, while those who won't waver from their position can without a doubt be called stupid.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  19. #39
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    No, they were explicitly stated to be powerful Mages and Warlocks as the remnants of magic was still in the air when Kalec discovered what happened. Poweful Mages and Warlocks, in Northrend, with enough power to overcome some of the most powerful Blue Dragons... Who then go on to build a Mana Bomb with it, Mana Bombs being a BElf specialty. Yes, it's circumstantial, but there aren't too many dots to join together here.
    Mana bombs don't need an iris to make. It was stolen so Garrosh could further empower a bomb and heighten it.

    I mean yeah, sure, maybe some blood elves helped out. Maybe, maybe not. The bomb could have been prebuilt and secured by Thalen for all we're told. Like I said, the blood elves who were there in any "official" capacity had no idea about it, and there's nothing to suggest Theron did either. Why should the entire blood elf race bear the blame for it? That's silliness.

    I don't think that it amounted to nothing is really the point. It could have amounted to much more.
    And what exactly do you think is reasonable retribution for it, bearing in mind the Alliance's (or at least its supreme military leader's) actual non-issue with it?

    Using the raised dead of the Alliance as soldiers, with the only comments about it being 'don't do that with our dead'. These are leaders who either went in with their eyes wide open and willing, or they're weak leaders who were manipulated and buckled under threat and coercion. The reality is probably somewhere in between, which makes them and their followers far from innocent.
    That's verging a little too far into speculation. We still have no idea how that scene goes down.

    I don't disagree that the Alliance should demand some reparations before working with the Horde in any capacity, but you're looking for/expecting it in the wrong places IMO.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The bombing of Theramore itself was no atrocity, it was a legitimate move ,a dick one but legitimate nonetheless, of course the Alliance can demand reparation for it, but thats about it.
    I think the capture and imprisonment of civilians thought to have escaped voided that argument.

    They are not innocent, but in a good position to negotiate and they will most likely get away with most, heck they would have gotten away with all, if it hadn't been for the Dalaran purge. Knowing how to pick your battles does not make such people weak leaders, but smart ones, while those who won't waver from their position can without a doubt be called stupid.
    What exactly could they negotiate? Because it looks like they are going to get away with absolutely everything, other than returning to Dalaran. The only way that could happen is if the Alliance took so many losses that they were so weakened by helping out the Revolutionaries that they'd left themselves unable to back up their negotiations with the necessary gunboats. In effect, losing yet again.

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