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  1. #41
    The bombing of Theramore itself was no atrocity, it was a legitimate move ,a dick one but legitimate nonetheless, of course the Alliance can demand reparation for it, but thats about it.
    Lol, it wasn't a legitimate move. Nukes and such are weapons of last resort. Garrosh could have assaulted Theramore with conventional means easily. As a sane leader of a nation, you generally try to avoid even bringing things like "Mana Bombs" into the equation, period.

    Horde apologists are so funny.

  2. #42
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I think the capture and imprisonment of civilians thought to have escaped voided that argument.
    I said the bombing of Theramore was no atrocity and that remains true, what Garrosh did afterwards is another story.

    What exactly could they negotiate? Because it looks like they are going to get away with absolutely everything, other than returning to Dalaran. The only way that could happen is if the Alliance took so many losses that they were so weakened by helping out the Revolutionaries that they'd left themselves unable to back up their negotiations with the necessary gunboats. In effect, losing yet again.
    Reparations of course, how much gold do they have to pay, how much material do they have to give the Alliance etc. Even at full strength the Alliance is unable to occupy the horde, they simply don't have enough manpower, a single horde nation maybe, but more than that is not possible, considering how stretched thin their troops already are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noin View Post
    Lol, it wasn't a legitimate move. Nukes and such are weapons of last resort. Garrosh could have assaulted Theramore with conventional means easily. As a sane leader of a nation, you generally try to avoid even bringing things like "Mana Bombs" into the equation, period.

    Horde apologists are so funny.
    Indeed Garrosh could have attacked a week prior and Theramore would be ruble, but that is beside the point. It is your personal preference I guess but killing someone through catapults,explosives,poison, swords or magic projectiles isn't that much better. You make an issue of something that is none, morally it is of course wrong,but that does not mean it is not legitimate.

    Just as horde players constantly bitch about Taurajo and Dalaran, but those were legitimate as well.
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    I said the bombing of Theramore was no atrocity and that remains true, what Garrosh did afterwards is another story.

    Reparations of course, how much gold do they have to pay, how much material do they have to give the Alliance etc. Even at full strength the Alliance is unable to occupy the horde, they simply don't have enough manpower, a single horde nation maybe, but more than that is not possible, considering how stretched thin their troops already are.
    It's less about occupation, or even collective punishment against Horde races, and more about seeing that Lor'theron, Sylvannas and Gallywix meet justice for the crimes they clearly perpetrated and were complicit in. Again, ignorance is not a defence but may give Lor'themar some bargaining chips if he can be seen to be delivering justice again Aethas and other Sunreavers, but Sylvannas and Gallywix have nothing.

  4. #44
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    It's less about occupation, or even collective punishment against Horde races, and more about seeing that Lor'theron, Sylvannas and Gallywix meet justice for the crimes they clearly perpetrated and were complicit in. Again, ignorance is not a defence.
    In form of what execution, imprisonment, stepping down? If so what you demand is unreasonable, reparations in form of gold, some zones and material is quite well within reach, everything else is not. This is no unconditional surrender, as such the Alliance could demand such things, but it wouldn't be agreed upon.

    They are at a crossroad brokering some sort of peace, or continue hostilities,if this war continues it wouldn't be over in a few months it would take years.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2013-09-02 at 05:28 PM.
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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    In form of what execution, imprisonment, stepping down? If so what you demand is unreasonable, reparations in form of gold, some zones and material is quite well within reach, everything else is not. This is no unconditional surrender, as such the Alliance could demand such things, but it wouldn't be agreed upon.
    Well hey, maybe that's what the next patch could be about; refusal of these guys to attone for their crimes, and so the war goes on.

  6. #46
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Well hey, maybe that's what the next patch could be about; refusal of these guys to attone for their crimes, and so the war goes on.
    The war is over, blizz more or less confirmed it, otherwise the Alliance wouldn't allow a new warchief. Gallywix and Lor'themar hardly committed warcrimes, Sylvanas is another story, though. If the war goes on ,the Alliance will win in the end, but they wouldn't be able to actually hold the land they conquered. Ultimately they would have an uprising of the occupied civilian population on their hands, which they couldn't properly deal with.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The war is over, blizz more or less confirmed it, otherwise the Alliance wouldn't allow a new warchief. Gallywix and Lor'themar hardly committed warcrimes, Sylvanas is another story, though. If the war goes on ,the Alliance will win in the end, but they wouldn't be able to actually hold the land they conquered. Ultimately they would have an uprising of the occupied civilian population on their hands, which they couldn't properly deal with.
    Gallywix and Lor'themar handed Garrosh the Heart of Y'Shaarj, and they gave him the Mana Bomb that destroyed Theramore. They are responsible for giving him superweapons. They can't even claim ignorance for those like they could over Dalaran.

    If the war's over, they need to answer for that.

  8. #48
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    I agree. They should never have pushed a war story without dedicating themselves to painting a realistic ending to it.
    Pretty much. It just can't work in the atmosphere of a gameplay first environment. What we get is a conclusion that is still half-assed but the best we can get. Which is why the war in Warcraft cannot ever be a faction war again.
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  9. #49
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Gallywix and Lor'themar handed Garrosh the Heart of Y'Shaarj, and they gave him the Mana Bomb that destroyed Theramore. They are responsible for giving him superweapons. They can't even claim ignorance for those like they could over Dalaran.
    And? They provided the guy, who was their ally with weapons, how is that a warcrime? Garrosh had yet to actually cross the line, Lor'themar tried many times to reign him in, ultimately Garrosh would have none of it, which is why there were negotiations between Silvermoon and Stormwind. Not to mention the blood elves had nothing to do with the heart and Goblin mercenaries dug it up, Gallywix wouldn't give Garrosh such a thing if this short story is any indication. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/game/lor...blank-scroll/1

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    If the war's over, they need to answer for that.
    No they don't.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2013-09-02 at 05:49 PM.
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  10. #50
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    "Oh, but Lor'themar didn't know", is a weak and stupid reason for him to be let off the hook.
    Lor'themar isn't responsible for the actions of those not only undermining his efforts (he was in negotiations with the Alliance to *re-join*) but also taking favours of Hellscream to setup the entire race and representative organisation as a target.

    He should have known (his lack of knowledge showing his own weakness of leadership), but even if he had, do you think he would have put a stop to it?
    So then Varian should be held responsible for the Defias burning Sentinel Hill to the ground? He should've known but didn't and an Alliance town, just recently built up, paid the price. Only the Lich King has the power to know every last thing going on in his subjects minds. No one else has the power, not Lor'themar, not Varian, not Tyrande, not even the Burning Legion.

    Or would he have carried on, like Sylvannas continued on against Gilneas with the Plague? Under threat of being cut loose to deal with the Alliance alone.
    That was a bluff and everyone should know it.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    And? They provided the guy, who was their ally with weapons, how is that a warcrime? Garrosh had yet to actually cross the line, Lor'themar tried many times to reign him in, ultimately Garrosh would have none of it, which is why there were negotiations between Silvermoon and Stormwind. Not to mention the blood elves had nothing to do with the heart and Goblin mercenaries dug it up, Gallywix wouldn't give Garrosh such a thing if this short story is any indication. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/game/lor...blank-scroll/1
    I don't believe the WoW universe operates under real world rules and laws. I doubt that the complicity of Lor'themar and the Blood Elves in the annihilation of an Alliance city would be well received, regardless of whether the supply and deployment of superweapons is considered technically criminal.

    Even so, was it not the Reliquary who were charged with searching for and gathering Sha, Mogu and Titan related artifacts for Garrosh? Even if they didn't hand it over in person, they'd gathered more than enough information for Garrosh to collect the Heart himself. If it wasn't clear from Theramore that what Garrosh sought was more superweapons, then Lor'themar is either very very stupid, or very very naive. No, he sent his people into that with his eye wide open.

    And where did all these Goblin Mercenaries suddenly appear from, if not the Bilgewater Cartel that Gallywix leads? I think it's fantastical to believe that so many came from anywhere else.

    Lor'themar might have earnt some bargaining chips through his subsequent actions, but Gallywix has been conspiculously absent; and both are relying on a defense of ignorance and their own factions becoming divided just demonstrates their own weaknesses. They might not know everything, but they should have a good idea of where and what the major military and civil units their faction is providing the war effort are participating in. If they can't manage that, they can't be trusted to continue leading their own factions, and Lor'themar can be absolutely ruled out as a potential new Warchief.

    As for Sylvannas, everyone should be looking at the complete dismantling of the Forsaken machine.

    So yes, we should be looking at wholesale regime changes to more reliable, effective leaders for those factions.

    No they don't.
    Yes, they should.

  12. #52
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I don't believe the WoW universe operates under real world rules and laws. I doubt that the complicity of Lor'themar and the Blood Elves in the annihilation of an Alliance city would be well received, regardless of whether the supply and deployment of superweapons is considered technically criminal.
    You consider it criminal, Varian sure did not.

    Even so, was it not the Reliquary who were charged with searching for and gathering Sha, Mogu and Titan related artifacts for Garrosh?
    They helped looking for the bell, their cooperation ended, because of the purge in Dalaran. Relations between Garrosh and Lor'themar broke down.

    Even if they didn't hand it over in person, they'd gathered more than enough information for Garrosh to collect the Heart himself. If it wasn't clear from Theramore that what Garrosh sought was more superweapons, then Lor'themar is either very very stupid, or very very naive. No, he sent his people into that with his eye wide open.
    Yes it was clear that Garrosh sought out more superweapons, but he hadn't crossed the line yet, which is why he tried to influence him to better himself on several occasions, Garrosh wouldn't hear of it and as such Lor'themar, knowing what kind of path Garrosh was on now, without intending to change his ways began talks with Stormwind.



    And where did all these Goblin Mercenaries suddenly appear from, if not the Bilgewater Cartel that Gallywix leads? I think it's fantastical to believe that so many came from anywhere else.
    They are Goblin mercenaries they could come from everywhere, the only true friend to a goblin is gold after all.

    Lor'themar might have earnt some bargaining chips through his subsequent actions, but Gallywix has been conspiculously absent; and both are relying on a defense of ignorance and their own factions becoming divided just demonstrates their own weaknesses. They might not know everything, but they should have a good idea of where and what the major military and civil units their faction is providing the war effort are participating in. If they can't manage that, they can't be trusted to continue leading their own factions, and Lor'themar can be absolutely ruled out as a potential new Warchief.
    They are not relying on it, you assume the Alliance is in any position to see their demands through, which they simply aren't. Get that into your thick skull, the rebels do not surrender unconditionally, the Alliance can make such ridiculous demands but won't get anywhere with it.

    As for Sylvannas, everyone should be looking at the complete dismantling of the Forsaken machine.

    So yes, we should be looking at wholesale regime changes to more reliable, effective leaders for those factions.
    The Alliance can try, but in the end they might accomplish nothing, because they simply are not strong enough to actually enforce those changes and they know it.

    Yes, they should.
    No, you want them to be punished, because they broke moral integrity and that is not enough reason. Morality is not something which is very important in global politics.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2013-09-02 at 07:18 PM.
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    You consider it criminal, Varian sure did not.
    I think his opinion might change if he had more details.

    They helped looking for the bell, their cooperation ended, because of the purge in Dalaran. Relations between Garrosh and Lor'themar broke down.
    But they'd already found Garrosh everything he needed to know to continue his pursuit.

    Yes it was clear that Garrosh sought out more superweapons, but he hadn't crossed the line yet, which is why he tried to influence him to better himself on several occasions, Garrosh wouldn't hear of it and as such Lor'themar, knowing what kind of path Garrosh was on now, without intending to change his ways began talks with Stormwind.
    Meanwhile he'd lost control of his own forces who were in the process of spiriting the Divine Bell away from Darnassus. What use is he, and what use is allying with him if he doesn't control his own forces? He simply can't be trusted; not through any duplicity, but just through sucking as a leader.

    They are Goblin mercenaries they could come from everywhere, the only true friend to a goblin is gold after all.
    They could, but the simplest answer is they came with the Bilgewater. We've never seen them in such force working for any faction prior to them joining the Horde. We don't even see some 'true' faction forces in such numbers as we do those guys.

    They are not relying on it, you assume the Alliance is in any position to see their demands through, which they simply aren't. Get that into your thick skull, the rebels do not surrender unconditionally, the Alliance can make such ridiculous demands but won't get anywhere with it.

    The Alliance can try, but in the end they might accomplish nothing, because they simply are not strong enough to actually enforce those changes and they know it.
    Get into your thick skull, the Alliance force is a small assisting force; not a full blooded conquering invasion force. The brunt of the damage is supposed to be being done and taken by the rebels. That's why it's acceptable that we don't conquer Orgrimmar, but it's also why we should have plenty in reserve to be able to consolidate the victory and start calling some shots.

    No, you want them to be punished, because they broke moral integrity and that is not enough reason. Morality is not something which is very important in global politics.
    I want losses recovered, and yes, punishments for what was commited in Garrosh's name by his subservients should be carried out. Justice is very important in politics at all levels; it's what politics is founded on. It should be shown what the in-fighting has cost the Horde. It's utterly nonsensicle for them to be able to continue "business as usual".

  14. #54
    The Patient Krixooks's Avatar
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    I think I read that the moral of the story of Pandaria is something like-

    "the Alliance needs the Horde and vice versa because they make each other stronger, which will be useful when we have to fight unknown forces in hum-ho future expansion"

    Which would explain the very unrealistic and unsatisfying end result of the Siege of Orgrimmar (from the Alliance perspective).

    Frankly I think we should redirect Southfury River and flood Orgrimmar permanently. They can go live in their other cities.

  15. #55
    I think the biggest problem will come from two people: Tyrande and Sylvanas.

    One will want those "damn orcs" out of ashenvale, but the orcs need lumber.
    The other will be demanded to get the hell out of Gilneas, but shes proves with her plague usage and hunting and killing -and raising the refugeess of hillsbrad and silverpine and so on that she doesn't care about orders and is busy claiming land and bulking her armys numbers for her own plans.

    I can't imagine either will be easy to talk down, maybe "hush tyrande" from malfurion again, sylvanas? not so easy

  16. #56
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I think his opinion might change if he had more details.
    Like what? He's quite aware that Lor'themar (like every other Horde leader in the game) followed Garrosh up to a point. He was more than happy to negotiate peace with him regardless, and I don't think a failed (and framed) bell heist that Lor'themar knew nothing about is going to suddenly label him a "war criminal" for uh... reasons?

    I'm honestly baffled you think he's such a villain. He's quite deliberately been portrayed as one of the more heroic characters in MoP.

    But they'd already found Garrosh everything he needed to know to continue his pursuit.
    That's an awfully broad brush you're painting with here. A handful of Sunreaver stooges found him that bell and, if you recall, the entire Sunreaver faction (under Aethas Sunreaver, not Lor'themar Theron) paid quite dearly in blood and reputation for it, even the innocents.

    Meanwhile he'd lost control of his own forces who were in the process of spiriting the Divine Bell away from Darnassus. What use is he, and what use is allying with him if he doesn't control his own forces? He simply can't be trusted; not through any duplicity, but just through sucking as a leader.
    Did you do the Divine Bell quests Horde-side? His "forces" (and they weren't his "forces," they were four or five mages in Sunreaver tabards) weren't responsible for taking the bell, unless you count the player and Fanlyr, both of whom were working from Garrosh's direct orders, who was doing his utmost to pin blame on the blood elves for it.

    You're expecting Theron to be omniscient, which is somewhat amusing in this scenario, given it was godawful communication between Alliance leaders which botched him leaving the Horde in the first place. What about those Stormwind soldiers Jaina used to squash the Sunreavers? What a terrible leader Varian must be for not knowing about that. Isn't he expected to know every single thing a member of his faction is up to at any given time, like Lor'themar is? :x

    but it's also why we should have plenty in reserve to be able to consolidate the victory and start calling some shots.
    They've already told us that the new Warchief will be someone the Alliance can, and I quote, "work with," not boss around and turn into a puppet. Which is... bizarre, given the circumstances, but they're evidently unwilling to turn one faction into a puppet of the other.

  17. #57
    Holy RP if you don't like the 'story' Jessie, take it up with the writers, never seen anyone get their intestines in such a knot over get ready for it 'A GAME'. Politics that's cute, Bugs Bunny and other cartoons must make your blood pressure go through the roof I didn't like the movie 'The Life of Pi' saw it once, and guess what? I wont be watching it again I also detest fried food, and most junk food in general, but I am not going to waltz into McDonalds or KFC and tell everyone in there that all their food should be grilled and baked since 'I' believe its the healthiest way to eat. Cant understand why people get so worked up for something that you cant take with you when you leave, cant put it on a resume, cant hang it on a wall, freeze it, put it in savings deposit box, nada, nothing. World of Warcraft was a game the day I bought it off of a shelf in a department store, and it remains that to this day.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    Like what? He's quite aware that Lor'themar (like every other Horde leader in the game) followed Garrosh up to a point. He was more than happy to negotiate peace with him regardless, and I don't think a failed (and framed) bell heist that Lor'themar knew nothing about is going to suddenly label him a "war criminal" for uh... reasons?
    You're focusing on the Bell, I'm talking about the Mana Bomb and the very active role Blood Elves played in the original assault on Theramore, ably assisted by Thalen Songweaver. Jaina's only mistake was not breaking neutrality at that point, leaving the Sunreavers to break it themselves once again with the Divine Bell.

    I'm honestly baffled you think he's such a villain. He's quite deliberately been portrayed as one of the more heroic characters in MoP.
    Heroic? He's not even so much a villain as a fool who's way out of his depth. About the only redeeming quality is that he realises it, because everything he does wrong and goes wrong is because he's constantly being usurped. If that's happening with such catastrophic effects with such frequency, you've got to wonder why - and that's because he's obviously a bad leader.

    That's an awfully broad brush you're painting with here. A handful of Sunreaver stooges found him that bell and, if you recall, the entire Sunreaver faction (under Aethas Sunreaver, not Lor'themar Theron) paid quite dearly in blood and reputation for it, even the innocents.
    Again, they did it twice. They had their chance after Theramore because it was "just one guy"... It turned out not to be thanks to the Divine Bell episode. Just how many chances should Jaina have given them? I mean it's pretty strongly implied that Aethas knew everything during the scene where Lor'theron denies all knowledge on the Isle of Thunder.

    Did you do the Divine Bell quests Horde-side? His "forces" (and they weren't his "forces," they were four or five mages in Sunreaver tabards) weren't responsible for taking the bell, unless you count the player and Fanlyr, both of whom were working from Garrosh's direct orders, who was doing his utmost to pin blame on the blood elves for it.
    And Thalen Songweaver was acting directly under Garrosh's orders when he helped the Horde breach Theramore's walls. How many others? How many times is "it's just a that guy" going to wash as an excuse? I don't think anyone had the luxury of patience at that point.

    You're expecting Theron to be omniscient, which is somewhat amusing in this scenario, given it was godawful communication between Alliance leaders which botched him leaving the Horde in the first place. What about those Stormwind soldiers Jaina used to squash the Sunreavers? What a terrible leader Varian must be for not knowing about that. Isn't he expected to know every single thing a member of his faction is up to at any given time, like Lor'themar is? :x
    What Stormwind soldiers Jaina was using? She'd kept neutral right up until that point, and thought the Sunreavers were doing the same - until the second time their agents were caught using Dalaran under Garrosh's orders. She then used the Silver Covenant, who were also neutral, to round up the Sunreavers while things were investigated. Some fought back, what are you going to do?

    I'm not expecting omniscience, but when a bunch of your guys screw up and get caught not following instructions (or following someone else's instructions), when your expedition commander is blown up in suspicious circumstances... You really have to start asking questions. Instead, he just cries and calls Jaina a bitch for calling them out and kicking them out of Dalaran.

    And do you really think that if the relatively small number of Sunreavers can't keep neutrality, that the much larger part of his forces would really follow him in switching sides?!

    They've already told us that the new Warchief will be someone the Alliance can, and I quote, "work with," not boss around and turn into a puppet. Which is... bizarre, given the circumstances, but they're evidently unwilling to turn one faction into a puppet of the other.
    Well I don't think they could work with, or boss around Lor'themar, Gallywix or Sylvannas as puppets; because Lor'themar and Gallywix just don't have command of their own people, and Sylvannas is just Sylvannas and creates her excuses to do her own thing anyway.

  19. #59
    The Lightbringer Ciddy's Avatar
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    Things could just kinda go back to where they were.

    ie - the alliance/horde leaders have a sort of peace treaty, but that doesn't mean the citizens of each faction agree with it, so there is still plenty of tension between the two. So we have skirmishes and such going on (certainly enough for battlegrounds and contested zones to exist), random players ganking each other, etc, but we're not in all-out "RAWR KILL TEH ALLIANCE SCUM AND DRINK THEIR BLOOD RAWR" Garrosh-type war.

  20. #60
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Besides Orcs and Forsaken they would be cool. Trolls, Tauren, Blood Elves and Goblins ultimately haven't done much in the way of antagonizing the Alliance and have for the overwhelming majority of cases simply tagged along.
    Things will no doubt be grey though because as with everything with WoW the Alliance races and Horde races will make sweeping judgments on the other, notably the Alliance after the war as they are not all as forgiving as Varian.

    The problem is that those two races are largest races of the Horde. While Orcs will go back to their multiple personality disorder of preaching peace and sticking a hatchet in the closest Night Elf. But besides that I can see them being very grey as the the new Warchief/Orc leader tries to pull the reins of the Orcs again so that they don't go on another rampage.

    The Forsaken are where things get very bad from a story telling PoV. As it stands they are screaming for the Alliance to come and have some payback after all of the crap they've pulled notably the Val'kyr. If the Alliance simply let it pass then it's table flipping time as the very notion of the Forsaken liberally using Necromancy and annihilating all settlements within arms reach must ring a few bells.

    I think what becomes of the Forsaken - Alliance will really make or break the post MoP relations as it could either be realistic where the Alliance actually do something or they will perform and tragic arse pull where the Forsaken get off scott free.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-09-03 at 07:36 PM.

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