1. #1

    T16 4p Bugged for Subtlety

    *UPDATE* Hopefully fixed with the new build!

    hey folks!

    i observed some pretty weird behaviour from the "Ambush-Proc" 4p. I don't have some footage or Combat Logs to show right now,
    but if you already have T16 4p, you can very easily test it yourself.
    The Effect is called "Sleight of Hand" (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=145211) and i track it with ForteXorcist.
    So here's what i can confirm so far.

    - Can Proc from Ambush casted out of Shadow Dance or Stealth.
    - Casting Ambush during SD or Subterfuge (NOT Backstab!) does eat Sleight of Hand, making it impossible to delay usage.
    - Can Proc from Fan of Knives, giving you essentially guaranteed Chain Procs if enough Adds are in range.

    Yeah. The FoK Thingy may be nice, but i had Single-Target Fights were essentially ALL of my Procs went into my Standard FW Uptime, decreasing the Value
    of 4p heavily for Single Target, and boosting it for Multi-target (AoE'ing to improve Single Target Damage feels pretty weird.)

    Its even more apparent (and unnerving) when you have AoC.

    Will post some Screenshots/Logs later.
    Last edited by Nouk; 2013-09-24 at 12:46 PM.

  2. #2
    yeah i noticed that on ptr but meh. didn't think they would do anything so i didn't post it.

  3. #3
    Wait, so it's proccing off of Ambush and if you have the proc up and hit SD you eat the proc?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    Wait, so it's proccing off of Ambush and if you have the proc up and hit SD you eat the proc?
    Exactly! There just went you're 4% Chance brah!

  5. #5
    So wait. Why not just not hit SD if it's procced? And if it procs during your SD it doesn't seem like much of a negative unless there's an ICD.

  6. #6
    I took some time to record this as a demonstration, and why it hurts sub more then benefit.

    http://youtu.be/3uP4E7Ten40


    edit: removed the quote, may be misunderstood otherwise.
    Last edited by Nouk; 2013-09-23 at 11:52 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouk View Post
    I took some time to record this as a demonstration, and why it hurts sub more then benefit.
    This doesn't really address the above.

    Assuming you can't delay your SD for 1s to get that Back-ambush in, you've got a 4% chance that your last backstab will cause SD to eat your proc. Oh no! But you also have a 4% chance that the last ambush in your SD will proc the 4p, so your next BS after the SD will be an ambush. This should cause a net-0 effect on average. Once per SD, you have a 4% chance to lose a proc, but once per SD you have a 4% chance to generate a proc to use outside.

    The FoK->proc sounds a bit insane. Wonder if they'll fix that...

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kael View Post
    This doesn't really address the above.

    Assuming you can't delay your SD for 1s to get that Back-ambush in, you've got a 4% chance that your last backstab will cause SD to eat your proc. Oh no! But you also have a 4% chance that the last ambush in your SD will proc the 4p, so your next BS after the SD will be an ambush. This should cause a net-0 effect on average. Once per SD, you have a 4% chance to lose a proc, but once per SD you have a 4% chance to generate a proc to use outside.

    The FoK->proc sounds a bit insane. Wonder if they'll fix that...
    This didn't cover any FW Overlap which only occurs from the 4P proccing from Ambush. And since we don't have mathematically "infinite" encounters, it's possible for all of your procs to go into your normal FW-Uptime, which CAN be a loss. That's fact, and nothing to argue about. The Server seems not to differentiate between Backstab and Ambush at all. Delaying your Proc only would be a gain when you have it at the end of SD, since it has a 10 Second Duration.

    So i would like to have a stable and fully functional 4P-Bonus, thank you very much.


    edit: the video has showed a proc on end of SD, since it only served to demonstrate the bug, not explain the intrinsic details. i figured people could guess themselves it could also proc at the very first cast :P
    Last edited by Nouk; 2013-09-23 at 11:49 PM.

  9. #9
    Seems like a non issue considering that the proc isn't an ICD proc.

    Just because it procs during your SD doesn't mean it won't proc again in 20 seconds (or whatever the duration is) when FW drops. Same thing in reverse, just because it doesn't proc during SD doesn't mean it will proc when you want it to.

  10. #10
    I'm still not seeing the issue with a proc from your last intended backstab before SD, and having Ambush potentially proc it as well. Are you saying that the "eaten" proc before SD means you'd delay SD 10 seconds for FW to wear off? And if the proc happens at the end of SD each time for each time it's swallowed at the start, well, you can hold it to the end of FW and get an extra 10s without delaying SD. That sounds like a net gain to me.

    Theoretically, you could lose more ambushes than you gain, yes, but that would be the exception rather than the rule.

    Beyond that, I'm still at a loss as to why you'd be losing a proc to SD. Usually you pool energy right before using SD, so the GCD before it (assuming you're not at like huge haste levels + lust + berserking) shouldn't be backstab, and you wouldn't run the risk of losing a proc...?

  11. #11
    The 4pc shouldn't proc from ambush at all, and it's not intended to. That's why today's hotfix addressed that. Only backstab should proc the 4pc.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kael View Post
    I'm still not seeing the issue with a proc from your last intended backstab before SD, and having Ambush potentially proc it as well. Are you saying that the "eaten" proc before SD means you'd delay SD 10 seconds for FW to wear off? And if the proc happens at the end of SD each time for each time it's swallowed at the start, well, you can hold it to the end of FW and get an extra 10s without delaying SD. That sounds like a net gain to me.

    Theoretically, you could lose more ambushes than you gain, yes, but that would be the exception rather than the rule.

    Beyond that, I'm still at a loss as to why you'd be losing a proc to SD. Usually you pool energy right before using SD, so the GCD before it (assuming you're not at like huge haste levels + lust + berserking) shouldn't be backstab, and you wouldn't run the risk of losing a proc...?
    Seems like you didn't, to this point, get at all that it even procs from Ambush. The Munching is a little side effect, and doesn't account for the problems which occur from procing from Ambush. You seem to only see the case where one would pull SD when you have a Proc from BS (which means it wouldve worked correctly)...in which you should delay your SD until FW falls off.

    Youre seeing an issue where never was one to begin with. The other one though you ignore completely. Even the statement that i had complete fights where my "bonus" ambushes ALL went into standard FW-Uptime through Vanish or SD. Not a single one through BS.


    but alas, it was fixed anyway:

    Tier-16 4-piece set bonus should no longer incorrectly activate from attacks other than Backstab.


    thanks blizz! <3

  13. #13
    I'm not entirely sure you read what I was writing correctly, or somewhere down the line there was serious miscommunication (how is Ambush proccing the 4p bonus a problem? It's a bonus or net-0 effect, rather than a loss as you seem to presume)

    Since the entire issue at hand seems to have been corrected in today's hotfix, I'll go ahead and close this discussion. You're welcome to PM me if you wanted to carry on the discussion of what is hopefully no longer bugged.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-09-25 at 04:11 AM.

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