Why do people think hunters wont be good in 5 .4?

[Diablade]

From all the videos and streams I have watched so far, hunters don't seem to be in a bad place at all....

[Ryve]

From all the videos and streams I have watched so far, hunters don't seem to be in a bad place at all....

The general consensus seems to be "we're pure DPS, so we deserve to top the charts no matter how badly we play".

[Windthorn]

The general consensus seems to be "we're pure DPS, so we deserve to top the charts no matter how badly we play".

That's not the general consensus unless you were trolling!

[Azortharion]

I'm happy with the changes, the Arcane Shot nerf-buff (more specifically the focus cost increase) should help seperating the average from the great (common consensus that hunters were pretty easy to play well, which is probably true). This makes it a little harder without murdering our DPS (so many buffs to compensate for -much- less Arcane Shots in a fight).

I think we'll stay at around the same spot, but I haven't been crunching numbers very much in terms of class balance.

[Deleted]

That's not the general consensus unless you were trolling!

Actually a lot of times on the forums hunters do always mention how they compare to locks and mages because of the "pure" dps, i dont think hes trolling at all.

[Cybran]

I'm happy with the changes, the Arcane Shot nerf-buff (more specifically the focus cost increase) should help seperating the average from the great (common consensus that hunters were pretty easy to play well, which is probably true). This makes it a little harder without murdering our DPS (so many buffs to compensate for -much- less Arcane Shots in a fight).

How exactly will that increase the skill cap? With the new 4 set bonus Survival is about spamming explosive shots. On the PTR I have gotten 5-6 explosive shots in a row which hardly screams skill requirements.

Actually a lot of times on the forums hunters do always mention how they compare to locks and mages because of the "pure" dps, i dont think hes trolling at all.

We compare ourselves with Mages and Locks, because we fill the same role as them. If a guild has to fill a spot they will pick a Mage or Lock over us since we are only capable of doing 80% of what they are.

[Deleted]

I'm happy with the changes, the Arcane Shot nerf-buff (more specifically the focus cost increase) should help seperating the average from the great (common consensus that hunters were pretty easy to play well, which is probably true). This makes it a little harder without murdering our DPS (so many buffs to compensate for -much- less Arcane Shots in a fight).

I think we'll stay at around the same spot, but I haven't been crunching numbers very much in terms of class balance.

The arcane shot change is almost a non issue because dire beast is a dps loss over thrill of the hunt for survival so we will still be spamming arcane shots like crazy and I don't see why anyone would play beastmaster in the next patch when survival is just as good at single target, doesn't have to deal with a stupid pet and has serpent spread for all the add bosses.

[Azortharion]

How exactly will that increase the skill cap? With the new 4 set bonus Survival is about spamming explosive shots. On the PTR I have gotten 5-6 explosive shots in a row which hardly screams skill requirements.

I'm mostly talking about BM as that is the go-to spec for most hunters these days, so I honestly wouldn't know 'bout Survival.

As for how it will increase the skill cap with BM - BM dps / most hunter DPS / what seperates the great from the good from the average is the amount of Arcane Shots used in contrast to Cobra Shots. Focus management, thinking ahead to get the most out of your globals etc. With the Arcane Shot change, this seperation in player skill will be much more evident I predict.

[Tehterokkar]

How exactly will that increase the skill cap? With the new 4 set bonus Survival is about spamming explosive shots. On the PTR I have gotten 5-6 explosive shots in a row which hardly screams skill requirements.



We compare ourselves with Mages and Locks, because we fill the same role as them. If a guild has to fill a spot they will pick a Mage or Lock over us since we only capable of doing 80% of what they are.

It's a skill "cap" increase because now you lose more DPS by delaying your Signature skill(ES/KC/CS).

[Azortharion]

The arcane shot change is almost a non issue because dire beast is a dps loss over thrill of the hunt for survival so we will still be spamming arcane shots like crazy and I don't see why anyone would play beastmaster in the next patch when survival is just as good at single target, doesn't have to deal with a stupid pet and has serpent spread for all the add bosses.

But at the same time Fervor will probs be better than ToTH (it's what I will be using, and generally what I use all the time).. Not gonna try and school anyone on Survival, though I have to disagree on it being as good as BM in single-target situations.. Beast Cleave is pretty strong, and it's getting buffed. The pet is a stupid one, but it's not a game-changer imo.

Getting off-topic, though, so that's my last contribution to the BM/SV thing.

- - - Updated - - -

It's a skill "cap" increase because now you lose more DPS by delaying your Signature skill(ES/KC/CS).

Also exactly this. ^^

[Cybran]

Focus management, thinking ahead to get the most out of your globals etc. With the Arcane Shot change, this seperation in player skill will be much more evident I predict.

That won't fix the fact that a Hunter performing perfectly will still do less than a Mage/Warlock performing perfectly.

[Azortharion]

That won't fix the fact that a Hunter performing perfectly will still do less than a Mage/Warlock performing perfectly.

Apples/oranges, I'm talking about the seperation of great hunters/good hunters/average hunters.

[Cybran]

Apples/oranges, I'm talking about the seperation of great hunters/good hunters/average hunters.

That is not what the thread is about. It's about why guilds will bench hunters on progress nights.

[Azortharion]

That is not what the thread is about. It's about why guilds will bench hunters on progress nights.

Exactly why I said I'll stop this conversation but the temptation to respond is winning me over. :c

Agree to disagree?

One finishing note bout BM/SV - AMoC is getting buffed significantly. Even at this stage, it's up there with BS. The BM Mastery affects Crows, etc.. Think BM+Crows will be the way to go.

[Kaeth]

Apples/oranges, I'm talking about the seperation of great hunters/good hunters/average hunters.

And Cybran was referring back to ... the thread topic.

Hunters are compared to mages/locks because all three perform the same role, but the latter two classes do it significantly better, and warlocks are also miles ahead in utility.

[Dracodraco]

Exactly why I said I'll stop this conversation but the temptation to respond is winning me over. :c

Agree to disagree?

One finishing note bout BM/SV - AMoC is getting buffed significantly. Even at this stage, it's up there with BS. The BM Mastery affects Crows, etc.. Think BM+Crows will be the way to go.

And AMOC is getting a significant nerf with Readiness being removed, so no double-crows every 5 minutes. The "significant buff" is only just enough to ALMOST offset the nerf. It will be slightly weaker in most scenarios in 5.4 compared to 5.3.
Also, blink strikes is a must-have for BM if you intend to do any aoe at all, as the melee hits of the pet is what procs the AOE. 50% boost to melee hits is just... Yea.

Fervor also wont be better than TOTH come 5.4. It currently is stronger than TOTH (DB>Fervor>TOTH; with fervor being prefered if you know you consistently need the extra burst that fervor provides, EG lei shen or ra den balls). If you are using TOTH right now, you are doing it fairly wrong =P.

[bigrichard]

Because [my class] is broken and Blizzard hates us and [other class] is always going to be better so we should all just re-roll or quit.

[Megabloks]

Because [my class] is broken and Blizzard hates us and [other class] is always going to be better so we should all just re-roll or quit.

Ah, the standard statement made by every class, every tier. Except hunters have near zero utility (loltraps), and no multidot capabilities, which almost every fight these days is designed around. It has been said so many times in the recent weeks, I don't feel like typing it all up.

We can look objectively at what every class can do, utility, cleave, and dps wise. And we can summarize that hunters are probably dead last overall in 5.4

[Windthorn]

Point I was trying to make and perhaps I don't speak for most hunters but I feel I do for the vast majority here who raid high end. We don't think we have a divine right to be above any class, Pure or Hybrid, gone are the days of Pure vs Hybrid DPS. I would like however for hunters to be picked upon the players skill and NOT the class mechanics such that an average mage/lock/multi dotting SP or boomer can easily out utilize hunters in terms of DPS and Utility. That's the balance I think most hunters, Draco et al are asking for not to be stupidly OP. I'm talking about PvE here also, sure hunters have been OP in PvP but many of us don't play this game for PvP, some do but many others play it for PvE. Anyways that's my sense of things, however I don't see much changing this xpac, maybe some form of revamp next patch? If blizz carry on trying to balance PvP and PvE then it will make it nigh on impossible to balance classes. In Cata hunters in DS were crap at both, atleast they addressed the representation of hunters in PvP but for the love of god not at a penalty for PvE.

[Kaeth]

Thanks to the (grossly insufficient) buffs doled out in a couple of recent PTR builds, hunters are comfortably back somewhere in the middle of the pack for single-target dps going into 5.4. As item levels rise, they will drop down at least a few rungs due to near total lack of secondary-stat scaling.

For spam AoE in traditional add fights, hunters are above average, but not the best. In multi-DoT encounters (a majority of the raid content in MoP), a couple other lower-mid-tier dps specs (ex. shadowpriests) pass them by and don't look back.

All along hunters possess near-zero utility -- Misdirection makes a slight difference in two fights in the previous tier, and Frost Trap's primary purpose is removing better snares and concealing deadly AoE mechanics -- and Blizzard doesn't think they need any more (i.e. any at all).

The general consensus seems to be "we're pure DPS, so we deserve to top the charts no matter how badly we play".

Contrary to your extremely obvious straw man, I thought the general consensus (and the overall gist of your post history) was that you were a troll. But I'm sure that I'll be the one who gets the infraction here for saying it.