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  1. #41
    ITT, OP making theories about something they have never experienced.

    Any legit heroic raiding guild has raiders who will do what they can to excel. This includes exhausting all options to get gear upgrades.

    If there were no lockouts, many of these guilds would run the raid over, and over, and over to get BiS and push for progression. It would quickly become a competition to see not who the best players were, but who spent the most time farming in the first week. This would lead to burnout and like someone said above, lots of raiders would get that last boss kill and hang it up until the next patch.

    On top of that, casual raiders would still be casual and probably wouldn't be running the extra content anyway.

  2. #42
    I'll try one more time with a different approach.

    It's just like that IRL. You want that amazing job but you have to do a shitty internship ? You just do it and people telling you you don't have to are full of sh*t because there is no way around.

    It's exactly the same in WoW. People farm and "force" themselves to play in order to be ready when the meaningful content is released. I love HC raids but I wouldn't be able to do it with LFR gear, so I farm NM, VP and my legendary cloak. It is boring at some point but when a new tier is released and I get to try and down HC bosses, I'm happy, I feel like all this work was worth it, it feels rewarding.
    IF there were other ways to gear up, then yes maybe you wouldn't have to do all the content, but there is no other way.

  3. #43
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    If I get tired or don't want to do something. I don't... it's really simple. If I want to run more raids I can't because people can't control themselves enough to limit how they play. So in turn blizzard has to limit everyone.
    Then make an alt and run the same content with a different character.

    This thread was started because a normal mode raider wants to raid more. He hasn't cleared heroic (nor have many people including myself - yet!) but just wants to run normal more times so he can get more gear or whatever he wants. If he's bored or wants better/more gear then he should buckle up and play better or find a better guild and spend the time clearing heroic content. Don't complain you don't have enough to do when you haven't even cleared the content.

    Lockouts exist to prevent people from just spamming the same bosses over and over for loot. You get one shot at the boss each week and every week you groan when your item doesn't drop and you come back the next week.

    If you could spam the instance 5 times a day every day people would burn out and quit, it wouldn't be fun, and then blizzard wouldn't make any money off of us anyway.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by MestHoop View Post
    You weren't around during WotLK raiding were you?
    Back then 10 man, 25 man (and their respective heroic counterparts during Toc) had separate lockouts. Result? Progression guilds forcing members to run the same instance several times (up to 4 times on 1 char, most had many alts as well) in order to stay on top of progression as compared to other guilds.
    I couldn't care less about the woes of progression raiders. From my perspective, the shared lockout took away something that people who were not serious progression raiders.
    Stating an opinion as fact does not make it fact. Opinions are not fact. So don't be stupid and make a fool of yourself by trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Blackmore View Post
    I couldn't care less about the woes of progression raiders. From my perspective, the shared lockout took away something that people who were not serious progression raiders.
    So I guess that gives us the right to not give a damn about non-progression raiders ?

    At least try to be constructive.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Recom View Post
    It's exactly the same in WoW. People farm and "force" themselves to play in order to be ready when the meaningful content is released. I love HC raids but I wouldn't be able to do it with LFR gear, so I farm NM, VP and my legendary cloak. It is boring at some point but when a new tier is released and I get to try and down HC bosses, I'm happy, I feel like all this work was worth it, it feels rewarding.
    In the end it's your choice to be progression/heroic raider. Just like a RL job, if someone doesn't want to do -all- of the work required, then that job isn't for them.

    The idea that people are "forced" to do anything is bizarre. The only reason people -feel- forced is because they -chose- to participate.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Recom View Post
    So I guess that gives us the right to not give a damn about non-progression raiders ?
    Wake me up when people give a damn.

    At least try to be constructive.
    Read the rest of the post. I explained why I don't like shared lockouts.
    Stating an opinion as fact does not make it fact. Opinions are not fact. So don't be stupid and make a fool of yourself by trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

  7. #47
    Epic! Detheavn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madyaks View Post
    So people are being stopped from playing because other people feel like they will be forced to run more, THEY ARE NOT BEING FORCED.
    Let us play, and if your GM is honestly forcing you to run content and you don't want to... that is your problem, why make it a problem for the rest of us, stand up and say no or find another guild.
    Being forced is just a way of saying 'I don't like X feature' nowadays. I agree with you, noone is forced to do anything. If you actually feel you are forced, then you are taking this game way too seriously.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Blackmore View Post
    In the end it's your choice to be progression/heroic raider. Just like a RL job, if someone doesn't want to do -all- of the work required, then that job isn't for them.

    The idea that people are "forced" to do anything is bizarre. The only reason people -feel- forced is because they -chose- to participate.
    The bold part is where you're wrong / what you don't get. We love doing HC encounters but you need a certain gear to be able to attempt them (at least before nerf but that's off-topic) and you can't get that ilvl without farming every possible way. If encounters were tuned for a much weaker gear (like 10 ilvls) then yeah we wouldn't feel forced to farm but it wouldn't be fun either.

    Read the rest of the post. I explained why I don't like shared lockouts.
    Your second post wasn't up when I posted that.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    You don't have to use food, flasks or potions while raiding either but show me a serious guild that doesn't consider it mandatory. If you're a serious raider, you HAVE to do it. It would be the same if lockouts weren't shared.
    You have the choice to not be "a serious raider". It's just bizarre to choose to participate in an activity and then bitch about what's required.

    "Sure I'll join the softball team.. What? I have to run to bases... that's not fair".
    Stating an opinion as fact does not make it fact. Opinions are not fact. So don't be stupid and make a fool of yourself by trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

  10. #50
    Why would you want to be a "casual" raider (as in a non-serious raider) if it brings you no fun ?

  11. #51
    Mechagnome Jataai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Blackmore View Post
    You have the choice to not be "a serious raider". It's just bizarre to choose to participate in an activity and then bitch about what's required.

    "Sure I'll join the softball team.. What? I have to run to bases... that's not fair".
    the problem is, that if you want to be a competitive raider then you HAVE to exhaust all gear options - if you want to stay competitive. Now some people want to be competitive but don't want to have to run the same raid 5 times a day in order to stay competitive. There should be some effort involved in being competitive, but making it in such a way that the competitive people have to raid every hour of every day to stay competitive would be stupid. It would be bad game design as it would alienate some of the more dedicated wow players and the competitive raiding scene would probably take quite a hit.

    It's more like "Sure I'll join the softball team.. What? I have to play softball all day and every day.. that's not fair".
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  12. #52
    Personally, i liked wotkl style better then current and i didn't feel forced to do both. I did both because i wanted to and it was fun for me at the time. Now i wouldn't have time to do it tho.I think that its something that would be good to have in game to give possibilities to those who have the time and will to do it all.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by madyaks View Post
    Shared lockouts, not letting us run all the raids
    You want separate lockouts. So you can run LFR, Normal and Heroic. Yet there are people here complaining about HAVING to run LFR AND Normal/Heoric to gear up. Just goes to show no matter what Blizzard do, someone, somewhere will complain.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by kinneer View Post
    You want separate lockouts. So you can run LFR, Normal and Heroic. Yet there are people here complaining about HAVING to run LFR AND Normal/Heoric to gear up. Just goes to show no matter what Blizzard do, someone, somewhere will complain.
    Those who do that only do it because it was advertised as a content for people who don't have time to raid so items shouldn't be as good if not better than those of the previous tier. With items upgrade and thunderforge/warforge, this is no longer the case.

  15. #55
    This argument could be used for asking Blizzard to remove weekly lockouts on raids. Why not let playerbase raid normal/heroic as many times as they want like dungeons? Would you like that idea?
    their moving their table over their
    they're moving they're table over they're
    there moving there table over there

  16. #56
    Over 9000! Baar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquidsteel View Post
    Then make an alt and run the same content with a different character.

    This thread was started because a normal mode raider wants to raid more. He hasn't cleared heroic (nor have many people including myself - yet!) but just wants to run normal more times so he can get more gear or whatever he wants. If he's bored or wants better/more gear then he should buckle up and play better or find a better guild and spend the time clearing heroic content. Don't complain you don't have enough to do when you haven't even cleared the content.

    Lockouts exist to prevent people from just spamming the same bosses over and over for loot. You get one shot at the boss each week and every week you groan when your item doesn't drop and you come back the next week.

    If you could spam the instance 5 times a day every day people would burn out and quit, it wouldn't be fun, and then blizzard wouldn't make any money off of us anyway.

    I don't want to play an alt. I have a main because I like that toon. Why can't you just not run the raid if you don't want to run it?

  17. #57
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    I don't want to play an alt. I have a main because I like that toon. Why can't you just not run the raid if you don't want to run it?
    Because if there was even the smallest chance that it could provide an upgrade for me, I would be hurting my fellow raiders if I chose not to do it because I couldn't be bothered.

    If you care enough to be in a heroic progression guild, then you should enough to do everything you can to make that progression as fast and smooth as possible. If you don't then there are always a huge pool of people in lesser guilds who will jump at the opportunity to take your place.

    It's like playing for a football team and only turning up to the games. Sooner or later the people who practice more than you and go to the gym more will take your spot on the team, because you just aren't as valuable a member anymore.

    Edit: If your response is going to be the typical "but that is your choice" then I would counter by saying that being a casual is also your choice, and if you really wanted to get the most out of your toon, you would step up and take the challenge of heroic raiding. There is extra content out there for you, don't complain that there isn't anything to do because you'd rather just do the easy stuff over and over again.
    Last edited by Liquidsteel; 2013-09-06 at 05:49 PM.

  18. #58
    Over 9000! Baar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquidsteel View Post
    Because if there was even the smallest chance that it could provide an upgrade for me, I would be hurting my fellow raiders if I chose not to do it because I couldn't be bothered.

    If you care enough to be in a heroic progression guild, then you should enough to do everything you can to make that progression as fast and smooth as possible. If you don't then there are always a huge pool of people in lesser guilds who will jump at the opportunity to take your place.

    It's like playing for a football team and only turning up to the games. Sooner or later the people who practice more than you and go to the gym more will take your spot on the team, because you just aren't as valuable a member anymore.

    Edit: If your response is going to be the typical "but that is your choice" then I would counter by saying that being a casual is also your choice, and if you really wanted to get the most out of your toon, you would step up and take the challenge of heroic raiding. There is extra content out there for you, don't complain that there isn't anything to do because you'd rather just do the easy stuff over and over again.

    Far from casual. I have cleared at least some heroics in every tier since ToC. I have never once worried about my raid spot, nor have I ever been a hindrance. No one in my guild is forced to do anything but show up to the raid. Even that isn't "forced".

    Like I said before we "re"-formed half way through ToT and are 12/12N 1/13H currently. We plan on pushing more into heroics in SoO. If you REALLY didn't want to do those raids you could easily find a guild that doesn't "force" you.

  19. #59
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    Far from casual. I have cleared at least some heroics in every tier since ToC. I have never once worried about my raid spot, nor have I ever been a hindrance. No one in my guild is forced to do anything but show up to the raid. Even that isn't "forced".

    Like I said before we "re"-formed half way through ToT and are 12/12N 1/13H currently. We plan on pushing more into heroics in SoO. If you REALLY didn't want to do those raids you could easily find a guild that doesn't "force" you.
    Ehh I don't use the term casual in terms of progression, but in one's approach to the game. You could be hardcore raiding 6 nights a week and only kill a few heroics (and be bad), or you could raid 2 nights for a couple of hours and clear the content 2 months in with a much more casual approach to the game. Anyway I've gone off track.

    For me, if my fellow raid members weren't using food/flasks/pots and weren't reliably turning up to raids, then I would find myself a more serious guild, because I take that aspect of wow very seriously. I only log on to raid and to do my farm, but I spend just as much time outside of the game making sure I'm fully prepared for when I do log on. If normals were a free for all and could be reset like your average dungeon, then almost everyone would just spam those again and again until they had everything they wanted. It's just a different mindset of being happy to just raid and being determined to always put in 110%.

  20. #60
    Over 9000! Baar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquidsteel View Post
    Ehh I don't use the term casual in terms of progression, but in one's approach to the game. You could be hardcore raiding 6 nights a week and only kill a few heroics (and be bad), or you could raid 2 nights for a couple of hours and clear the content 2 months in with a much more casual approach to the game. Anyway I've gone off track.

    For me, if my fellow raid members weren't using food/flasks/pots and weren't reliably turning up to raids, then I would find myself a more serious guild, because I take that aspect of wow very seriously. I only log on to raid and to do my farm, but I spend just as much time outside of the game making sure I'm fully prepared for when I do log on. If normals were a free for all and could be reset like your average dungeon, then almost everyone would just spam those again and again until they had everything they wanted. It's just a different mindset of being happy to just raid and being determined to always put in 110%.

    No one is forced to bring flash/food because the guild provides them for raiders. even though we don't "force" people to show up 90% still show up every raid night. We are serious about our progression. Yet at the same time we all understand at the end of the day wow is just a game.

    in half a patch we are a top 20 25m guild on stormrage-US.


    I don't think you are understanding. I do love to raid. But my options are limited because others will " feel" forced to do them.



    Blizzard removed my option because people couldn't control themselves and exercise their option to not do them.

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