Heroic Guild / Lockout RANT

[Deleted]

No one is forced to bring flash/food because the guild provides them for raiders. even though we don't "force" people to show up 90% still show up every raid night. We are serious about our progression. Yet at the same time we all understand at the end of the day wow is just a game.

in half a patch we are a top 20 25m guild on stormrage-US.


I don't think you are understanding. I do love to raid. But my options are limited because others will " feel" forced to do them.



Blizzard removed my option because people couldn't control themselves and exercise their option to not do them.

Then I misunderstood. Your post made it sound like you didn't use consumables at all and that people just turned up whenever.

In my guild we expect 75% attendance, and people regularly sign off. We thus keep a slightly larger roster and people are expected that in cases where we have too many people, they may be benched to facilitate the best set up there is.

We're 11/13 10H having formed shortly after 5.2 hit, but we almost didn't raid for the whole of july due to vacations etc. We're classed as semi hardcore with 4 nights a week of which I attend 3. When 5.4 hits we will do normal asap, and we will also run flex in order to grab trinkets and set bonuses and fill in any non hc slots from the previous tier. The flex raids might not be mandatory, but I'm 99% sure almost everyone will turn up for them because it's basically free loot.

Similarly, if we could do 10 man as many times as we wanted, most of us would likely spam that a few times until we had most of what we needed.

[Ronduwil]

The flex raids might not be mandatory, but I'm 99% sure almost everyone will turn up for them because it's basically free loot.

If you've cleared normals and are progressing into heroics it'll be free loot, but for most players it's intended as progression raiding. Then again, if you've cleared normals already I don't know what loot flex can offer that you haven't gotten out of normals. The only reasons I could see for normal+ raiders to run flex are alt raiding and achievement hunting.

[Tyrxor]

I don't think you are understanding. I do love to raid. But my options are limited because others will " feel" forced to do them.

Blizzard removed my option because people couldn't control themselves and exercise their option to not do them.

First of all, I like the idea of being able to run a raid multiple times as long as no extra loot drops.In the end that's one of the main reason why blizzard used weekly lockouts since vanilla.If you can easily farm all the equip you need, trough killing the same boss multiple times a day, you will quickly run out of content. Lockouts also make progress more skill and less timedependant (of course time still plays a major role), otherwise people at the top would just be guys that can raid 24 hours 7 days a week and who grinded trough all the bosses they already killed until they got enough gear to kill the next one.

At the moment I'm raiding 3 days a week with 9/13h. Some people in my guild, that i know since tbc really don't have much time, in wotlk they couldn't raid 25 heroic because most guild expected you to also go 10man hc to get more upgrades. Now even with their short amount of time they can raid heroics with us because they can easily do everything possible to improve their character. I don't think it's a good idea to take their option to raid with us heroics, but that's what would happen.

[Deleted]

If you've cleared normals and are progressing into heroics it'll be free loot, but for most players it's intended as progression raiding. Then again, if you've cleared normals already I don't know what loot flex can offer that you haven't gotten out of normals. The only reasons I could see for normal+ raiders to run flex are alt raiding and achievement hunting.

because loot in 10 man is terrible, and flex offers higher ilvl gear than t15 hc. I'm still using a scenario ring, and have 4 items that are 522, so flex will provide upgrades.

the fact that you can also obtain tier and trinkets makes it even better.

[Orange Joe]

because loot in 10 man is terrible, and flex offers higher ilvl gear than t15 hc. I'm still using a scenario ring, and have 4 items that are 522, so flex will provide upgrades.

the fact that you can also obtain tier and trinkets makes it even better.

Gearing a 10 man takes forever compared to a 25man.

[Durandro]

Gearing a 10 man takes forever compared to a 25man.

Ain't that the truth. If we didn't have coins to roll each week I'd not have half the items I have now!

Flex at least gives some of us the option to run again during the weekend to get items we're missing, even if we don't do it for a couple of weeks. Its nice.

[bloodforsilence]

I only run LFR, so I'm just a bit miffed that I'll have to wait a week longer than anticipated, but... eh. I'll live.

sooooo ToT the lfr unlocks were as follows:
wing 1 - wing 2 - 1 week
wing 2 - wing 3 - 2 weeks
wing 3 - wing 4 - 2 weeks

and here we have the propsed SoO unlocks via the offical site:
wing 1 - wing 2 - 1 week
wing 2 - wing 3 - 2 weeks
wing 3 - wing 4 - 2 weeks

I fail to see how one can be miffed at the same exact release schedule that was for ToT

and just to clarify before anyone barks off lfr was released 1 week after ToT released and the same schedule is set for SoO

[Saiyoran]

Far from casual. I have cleared at least some heroics in every tier since ToC. I have never once worried about my raid spot, nor have I ever been a hindrance. No one in my guild is forced to do anything but show up to the raid. Even that isn't "forced".

Like I said before we "re"-formed half way through ToT and are 12/12N 1/13H currently. We plan on pushing more into heroics in SoO. If you REALLY didn't want to do those raids you could easily find a guild that doesn't "force" you.

>"Far from casual"
>1/13 the week before 5.4.
>Doesn't min/max or optimize as far as loot opportunities go.

Might want to stop contradicting yourself and actually read the arguments people are posting logically. People ENJOY heroic progression. That is why a lot of people play this game. To get to that level, you need to be doing as much as possible in preparation. By opening normal to be run over and over again, people would have to run normal over and over each week to stay competitive. That's not fun. So then you're left with the choice of either being competitive and spending 24/7 farming normal mode or only raiding once a week with little to no chance at competition. Neither of those options sound fun, at all. Therefore, most hardcore raiders would get burnt out and quit because the aspect of the game that they enjoyed has simply been revamped into something awful and unenjoyable.

[MoanaLisa]

GC has made some noises this year about how perhaps Blizzard was being too much the nanny. So perhaps it will be put back the way it was next expansion. Or perhaps not. He may have been running a trial balloon to see how people would respond to it.

I don't care either way. I did all that during Wrath, burned out and have never really been interested in heroic raiding ever since. I thought at the time it might have been too much a nanny thing but my guess is that if they actually do put it back it will reduce the number of people doing heroic raiding over the long run. Something that is already a problem.

[rebecca191]

Did people REALLY enjoy running Trial of the Crusader four times a week? Blech. That's the sound of me being sick remembering it.

[Beergod]

Lockouts are there to prevent extremely fast gear progression that would eliminate competition as well as cause mass boredom. It's fair the way it is, everyone is equal. One guild may have more time than another and if there was no lockout periods that one guild that has a lot more time will have a lot more loot, compared to the equally skilled guild who doesn't have that much time.

[judgementofantonidas]

Why lockouts?
Yeah because without them some people feel that their guilds will require them to run everything they can to get geared up to do harder content.
No one is making these people run anything, if you don't want to run it don't run it. But if you have a lockout you are stopping people who do want to run more.
So people are being stopped from playing because other people feel like they will be forced to run more, THEY ARE NOT BEING FORCED.
Let us play, and if your GM is honestly forcing you to run content and you don't want to... that is your problem, why make it a problem for the rest of us, stand up and say no or find another guild.

Shared Lockouts

As a GM of a casual raiding guild, I would not require everyone to be in every lockout during the week that is possible. However I would be, and I would tend to take players into the top end of the raiding that we are capable of who had the best gear and showed the best performance. Only makes sense.

I loved wrath for the non exclusive lockouts and the ability to leverage progress in ten man off gear you could get in 25.

I totally disagree with shared lockouts.
Goes double for the Heroic raid lockouts.

- - - Updated - - -

GC has made some noises this year about how perhaps Blizzard was being too much the nanny. So perhaps it will be put back the way it was next expansion. Or perhaps not. He may have been running a trial balloon to see how people would respond to it.

I don't care either way. I did all that during Wrath, burned out and have never really been interested in heroic raiding ever since. I thought at the time it might have been too much a nanny thing but my guess is that if they actually do put it back it will reduce the number of people doing heroic raiding over the long run. Something that is already a problem.

I would love that so much it isn't funny.

And I dissagree. It would INCREASE the amount of players that move into heroic raiding.
During wrath you could easily down the first couple of bosses in 25 and use the gear from them to catapult your team through 10 thereby unlocking heroic faster.

[rebecca191]

And I dissagree. It would INCREASE the amount of players that move into heroic raiding.
During wrath you could easily down the first couple of bosses in 25 and use the gear from them to catapult your team through 10 thereby unlocking heroic faster.

And yet compare completion numbers.

H: The Lich King (25): 1101 (1.85%)
H: The Lich King (10): 5664 (6.71%)

vs

H: Madness of Deathwing: 14126 (22.05%) combined 10 and 25 man

Or even starting:

H: Lord Marrowgar (10): 50887 (60.29%)
H: Lord Marrowgar (25): 16103 (27.02%)

vs

H: Morchok: 47272 (73.80%)

A higher percentage started and finished last tier hard mode in Cata, though there were less total raiders due to subscription drops I imagine. It's more about tuning than letting people run 4 lockouts.

[judgementofantonidas]

And yet compare completion numbers.

H: The Lich King (25): 1101 (1.85%) 25 man
H: The Lich King (10): 5664 (6.71%) 10 man

vs

H: Madness of Deathwing: 14126 (22.05%) combined 10 and 25 man

Anyone who raided Dragonsoul will tell you that the difficulty of Dragonsoul was pitiful after the initial well tuned starter raids of the Cataclysm expansion. So your numbers mean very little. That particular instance was easier therefore more players completed it.

[rebecca191]

I agree Dragon Soul sucked. But tuning makes a bigger difference than people being able to run the raid a zillion times a week. The poster I replied to was arguing more guilds were able to start hard modes in Wrath because of the extra gear. Number of players, sure, cause more were playing. Percentages? No.

[judgementofantonidas]

I agree Dragon Soul sucked. But tuning makes a bigger difference than people being able to run the raid a zillion times a week. The poster I replied to was arguing more guilds were able to start hard modes in Wrath because of the extra gear. Number of players, sure, cause more were playing. Percentages? No.

I was arguing from a purely personal perspective. We hit up 25 man for the bosses we could down and leveraged that gear against completing 10 man overgeared.

[DrSteveBrule]

Shared lock outs so people don't feel obligated to run 10mans and/or Normals.

Flex/LFR don't have shared lockouts because fuck you.