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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    As I said few pages ago, people should not be using ubiquitous words like "difficult" with multiple definitions when there is an explicit word "time-consuming" also in the dictionary to avoid confusion.
    When one of the definitions of difficult is "requires more effort" I think its very appropriate in it's usage. "time-consuming" is more of contraction detailing a specific flavour of difficulty rather than being a separate entity.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    In pure gameplay terms, WoW has gotten better with every expansion.
    5 man dungeons and heroics gameplay suffered during Cata's first patch. MoP improved on it, but is still behind TBC/WoLTK/Vanilla for variety

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by mmowin View Post
    Sup everyone so ive been playing WoW since about the start of BC and I know back then it was harder trying to clear content and the game in itself was a lot harder since there was no LFR or group find for anything plus you had to flyout to the actual instance. So basically if you werent in a hard core raiding guild you werent going to see any content. Ive seen a lot of posts on other forums talking about how WoW has been dumbed down to the point where its unplayable now and everyone is blaming the casual player for this. My question is how exactly did the casual "ruin" WoW?
    If anything, casual players are the major reason WoW still exists. How did they ruin WoW? They didn't, most players are not even participating in forums, or even reading patch notes, there is of course a vocal minority of casuals here and there and there are of course the "hardcore" players, most of which take active participation in forums on different WoW related websites. If anything, the "hardcore" voice is much more taken into consideration, because of the fact it is mostly the only voice heard on the forums, so in reality who did ruin WoW?

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    As I said few pages ago, people should not be using ubiquitous words like "difficult" with multiple definitions when there is an explicit word "time-consuming" also in the dictionary to avoid confusion.

    Also, in most cases leveling tailoring is lot easier than herbalism because you can get all required materials from AH in high population realm without doing laps and competing for resources outside. Especially in PvP realms.
    Actually Tailoring is easier because you can get mats via normal levelling tasks without going out of your way for a resource node. Server AH economies are highly variable, subjective and sometimes very expensive for players

  5. #185
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Ergh, I suppose you could say balance is subjective, I think that's rubbish though. Cataclysm was a half-step between Wrath and MoP in terms of talents and various other things, MoP is better balanced apart from possibly PVP.

    Range of content is completely objective. MoP has everything every other expansion had plus Brawler's Guild, Pet Battles, Farming, Challenge Modes. Count 'em.

    Same for accessibility. MoP launched with LFR unlike any other expansion, end of story, QED.

    In pure gameplay terms, WoW has gotten better with every expansion.
    .
    What it launched with is irellevant. LFR was in cataclysm so you can't claim it as a mists exclusive feature for your objective critera.

    The range of content isn't completely objective. When you consider that most of the content offers little to know reward that would incentive people to do it, the range becomes pretty minuscule. Also to be honest the range of content in and of itself isn't a good or bad thing, your still putting a value judgement on it and saying it's "better". Why does range of content make mists better? Ultimately because you think that content is good (which is fine) but it's still a value judgement i.e not objective.

    IN lots of ways cataclysm was far more accessible so was wotlk.

    WoW has regressed this expansion far more than that I ever thought possible. None of what you said is objective, if you read between the lines enough it's just your SUBJECTIVE opinion.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-04 at 08:03 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by madrox View Post
    When one of the definitions of difficult is "requires more effort" I think its very appropriate in it's usage. "time-consuming" is more of contraction detailing a specific flavour of difficulty rather than being a separate entity.
    Time-consuming describes things like farming very precisely. People are throwing around the word "difficult" because of it's imprecise nature trying to obfuscate the truth that there is nothing mentally challenging or requiring manual dexterity (two attributes that are most often associated with something being difficult) in most of WoW content of olden days. In nine cases out of ten it was purely time-consuming, not difficult.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  7. #187
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDougieM View Post
    WoW is still an amazing game and nothing out there comes even close, sadly through time and life restraints I've not been a regular raider since Wrath...doesn't change the fact that I still enjoy and love the game...the game is older, people are older and can't commit enough time to the game...that is why subs dropped, no fault in the game
    I hear this "Players are older now" crap so much it's almost become a staple in every thread when Blizzard loses subs, you do realize a lot of WoW players have been adults with jobs right? Heck I am 33 (Unsubbed because I think the game has turned to rubbish and now play FF 14: A Realm Reborn) and have been playing since mid vanilla, every guild I have been in from start to end has been full of mostly adults with jobs and families.
    "Of all the animals, man is the only one that is cruel. He is the only one who inflicts pain for the pleasure of doing it." - Mark Twain

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Time-consuming describes things like farming very precisely. People are throwing around the word "difficult" because of it's imprecise nature trying to obfuscate the truth that there is nothing mentally challenging or requiring manual dexterity (two attributes that are most often associated with something being difficult) in most of WoW content of olden days. In nine cases out of ten it was purely time-consuming, not difficult.
    Maybe its just me, but I found soloing elite mobs a challenge for me, needing to use CDs correctly and knowing when to heal (as a Paladin)

    Not to mention the solo only Hunter/Priest epic weapon quests, the Hunter one is quite brutul as it punishes any aid from other players or your pet

  9. #189
    Warchief Henkdejager's Avatar
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    Here we go again , without reading your post at all i can already say what is in there...let me gues :

    " I play since vanilla/TBC"
    " Back then it was harder to do X becuase of Y"
    " Having epics meant something "
    " LFR ruined wow "

    Am i right? Jesus christ leave the horse alone already..it's beaten to death.
    Stuff

  10. #190
    Listen I really respect heroic raiders and high rated pvp'ers, but to me the huge difference between "casual" and "hardcore" isn't so obvious. I mean is a normal raiding guild considered hardcore? Where is the line drawn here. Normal raiding is a lot tougher than RF, and Heroic raiding is a lot tougher than normal, but who says that there aren't a ton of players running RF capable of running normal raids. Does this automatically make the normal raider better or more hardcore? To me this illusion of a class system is just a fallacy. I for one have heard just as much complaints, demand, and threats to blizzard from super "hardcore" to the super "casual". In fact probably more.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by championknight View Post
    Maybe its just me, but I found soloing elite mobs a challenge for me,
    And that's why I said "in nine cases out of ten" at the end of the paragraph you quoted. Farming is easy, grinding mobs for leveling is easy. It just takes long time. You could grind easily non-elite mobs for zero challenge, it was simply time-consuming, not difficult unless you choose to make it difficult. Those elite mobs were group quests in vanilla, not meant for soloing and almost always not even possible to solo without outleveling it or with a pet class to cheat it.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  12. #192
    Casuals Did not ruin wow. Wow is just as much" hard core" as it ever was with heroic modes. So raids can be harder, raids can be easyer, it great for everyone. There is PVP(over twise as many as was in vanila) There are arena, and rated BG. wow has not become to casual, just more to do for all level of players
    (i am 20 and dyslexic so yes i suck at spelling)

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    I hear this "Players are older now" crap so much it's almost become a staple in every thread when Blizzard loses subs, you do realize a lot of WoW players have been adults with jobs right? Heck I am 33 (Unsubbed because I think the game has turned to rubbish and now play FF 14: A Realm Reborn) and have been playing since mid vanilla, every guild I have been in from start to end has been full of mostly adults with jobs and families.
    was stating that some people may have left because they just don't have the time to dedicate towards the game anymore, I'm not saying it is the only reason was just stating one possible...I'm 36 and just find that I don't have the time anymore...doesn't mean I still don't love the game...fact is it's all down to personal preference

  14. #194
    They didnt ruin wow at all....but it does warm my soul to know as a casual player im irritating these elitist idiots that think this way that much. Im glad they hate my type of player because we arent going anywhere and god dont they hate it!

  15. #195
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    This thread is STILL going on? You have GOT to be kidding me.
    None of you can even agree on what WoW really means, yet alone define "casual" in any sensible way you all can agree on. Yet to continue to talk past each other, insistent on posting into the void to keep this non-topic alive.

    It's comparable to kids on the playground debating each other when playing make-believe. "I shot you, you should be dead, you have no business still shooting at me!WAH" - "You only strafed me, I was wearing armor *sticks out tongue*! WAH!".

    You can count the number of rational and well thought-out arguments on one hand. Total lack of perception and relative meaning.

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by madrox View Post
    When one of the definitions of difficult is "requires more effort" I think its very appropriate in it's usage. "time-consuming" is more of contraction detailing a specific flavour of difficulty rather than being a separate entity.
    This.

    As an ex-player who quit the game shortly after the launch of MoP after having played since vanilla I experienced the whole decline in difficulty, and by difficulty I meant that it was both Hard and Required More Effort, aka took more time because a) you had to wipe over and over and over to win, b) you had to collect stuff outside the raid in order to be top of the line.

    But did casuals ruin WoW? Certainly not. They made WoW massive, 12 million players at its peak. The vast majority of these players were casuals, just as most people are today. What ruined WoW, to me, is the way Blizzard chose to appeal to Casuals. Should they appeal to Casuals? Yes!! Of course they should, it adds alot of fun functionality to the game and keeps Blizzard's pockets full of money to deliver more content. But should they have gone with the policy "we want everyone to see everything" to appeal to Casuals? No!! THAT was their big mistake to me. What they should've done, or should, is to have like 2 raids each tier, where 1 of the raids uses the flex technology they now have to appeal to casual raiders, and consider those raids as the "normal mode" of the tier. Once you have completed those raids you will be attuned to enter the other 1 raid which is harder and which feature the end boss of the patch and/or expansion. This raid is the hard mode. So the casual raiders will have stuff to do, and they will see Queen Azshara's lieutenants or w/e, but they won't get to kill Queen Azshara these raids. Then, using some scaling technology the 1 casual raid should turn into 5-man dungeons when they release the next raid tier, while the main raid with Queen Azshara scales down to a casual raid. Then for each raid tier there will be 2 casual raids (the previous hard mode raid + new casual raids with story of the current tier), and 1 hard mode tier.

    As I would've been part of the "casual raiders" category in this scenario I would've prevented myself from seeing Queen Azshara right away... now why would I do that? Well, as I was never in a top guild during vanilla/tbc (only time I "finnished" the game was when my guild killed Illidan while he was the last boss of the game) I always had something to aspire to, and it made me interested in following top guilds like Nihilium etc, then when you finally got to that badass end boss it was truly epic when you finally kileld him - it was this feeling of mystery and community that made World of Warcraft seem not like a game but a world. Not getting to see something in-person in game but rather aspire to it and look up to those cool raiders with that awesome set or weapon standing in Orgrimamr added more to the game than allowing me to see everything right away, it's like "immaterial content". Sure, today they have Hard Mode and shit, but when you start playing Hard Mode you have already killed Illidan... it is not as epic to go kill him again, just with more HP and another mechanic. It's still the same dude.

    Also, as they would constantly scale down hard mode raids to casual raids, and casual raids to dungeons for each content patch, more diversity would be added to collection of dungeons without needing to design entire new dungeons, which is also great as a casual player.

  17. #197
    Did casuals ruin WoW and if so how?
    No. Blizzard decided that it would be cool to jump on the "short fun waggon". Less hurdles, more accessibility, simplified handling and so on. It looks like it was made for the casual audience but real casuals doesn't care about things in the game. The time before Wrath proofs this.

  18. #198
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    If it wasn't for the casuals, WoW would be a niche game on a few servers. Sad, but true. Gamers move on, evolve with the times and adapt and acquire new tastes. Young blood needs to fill that space.
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  19. #199
    No casuals didn't ruin wow, blizz ruined wow by making it too casual.

    I used to raid 3 days on main, and the other 4 days i raided with alts.

    Now it's LFR and since i never got too far in normal with guild, i can't get in a pug because "i don't have the required achievement"

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Rupenbritz View Post
    Wait what??
    Catac was more casual then anything, we played twice a week and still managed 8/8 HC very fast. (And yes i played Vanilla and TBC semi-hardcore).
    Any guild that could beat 12/12 normal of T11 when it was current could easily clear 8/8 hc of T13 when it was current. T11 was just that much harder, which lead to a huge drop in subscriptions (that and, the patch after it consisted of two rehashed troll heroic dungeons, people just quit because there was nothing to do).
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