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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by mmowin View Post
    My question is how exactly did the casual "ruin" WoW?
    Ruin it? Casuals are the reason the game still has legs.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Greendog View Post
    Ruin it? Casuals are the reason the game still has legs.
    Yea, but non-casuals are the reason certain bosses got new legs.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    My personal angle and preference on the game is somewhat irrelevant. The fact is that catering to a more limited scope of player will increase the quality of said content, and also allow for more of it. This is a truism whenever you have a somewhat fixed number of man hours for development between content releases, and is a truism when dealing with the expectations of the players themselves, which of course run the gamut. This same playerbase tends to feel slighted or ignored whenever content or improvements come out that aren't aimed specifically at them.

    Expect to lose some of your playerbase, focus on the sort of player who remains, and you'll wind up with increased sub retention. Continue trying to make Azeroth the digital version of Wal-Mart, and I don't see anything changing for the better in the future.
    Theirs so much that's absurd in this that's it's gonna take me a bit to break it down so please bare with me.

    1. Your personal angle and preference are not irellevant. They color everything you say. Why is it better that the needs and happiness of a few be met at the expense of the larger majority? Obviously for you because you think your personal angle and preference will be met
    2. Your truisms are laughable. It is not a guarantee or truism that the quality of content will increase. In fact let's say they focused solely on YOU and YOUR DESIRES and NEEDS. How long do you think it would take before the development staff were laid off, fired, or moved to other projects? How long before the dip in subscribers forced changes in the game (purely financial and economic ones) that began to affect the game? I'm sorry it's not a truism that the quality of content would get better because the number of man hours aren't fixed. They are subject to economic and financial whims.
    3. The playerbase as a whole doesn't feel slighted, this is also not a truism. In so far as casuals are concerned they don't feel slighted they simple leave when they aren't entertained. Some CHILDREN may feel slighted but they are an obvious minority not worth the expense and time it would take to sate them anyway.

    Your truisms aren't so much truisms as they are observations and not on the whole balanced ones. It's funny you use walmart as an example because walmart makes money hand over fist. It's an excellent business model to follow Blizzard just hasn't been following it. Expecting to lose some of your player base is clever. If they followed your design goals they'd lose MILLIONS and most likely have severe cutbacks insuring actually LESS content and less quality for all.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #264
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    Content was more time consuming which kept u playing longer, Content now is dumbed down and made very easy to do for casuals. Blizzard just got lazy took the easy way out and are now paying for it every day. TBC model for me was the best and was a really great game to play.

  5. #265
    When I think of casual, I think of someone taking the easy way out, someone who cannot be bothered about decent gameplay. I don't think a casual is someone who has less time, those that do not have time would hopefully still want a solid game. For my definition, I do not mean casuals as someone who is time sensitive.

    Casuals to me, in my mind and how it pertains to WoW, would be lazy and entitled with poor character.

    Then there are those who play casually but still want the gameplay and understand that the game developers should not cater to the lazy and entitled. I know people who play casually, good people. Then I know people who are the lazy and entitled casual. Those are the casual that get on my nerves, and there is a lot of them within WoW.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucarocks92 View Post
    Content was more time consuming which kept u playing longer, Content now is dumbed down and made very easy to do for casuals. Blizzard just got lazy took the easy way out and are now paying for it every day. TBC model for me was the best and was a really great game to play.
    "Time-consuming" and "difficulty" are nasty words to the vocal minority that are posing as the majority.

    Apparently everything has to be done on a set time (which no one really knows since it varies from "casual" to "casual").
    So right now Blizzard is in a pickle in keeping them playing (ya know, for subs) but making sure they can access the content on this arbitrary time frame.

    It's kind of like Oroborous, feeding on it's own ass.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    When I think of casual, I think of someone taking the easy way out, someone who cannot be bothered about decent gameplay. I don't think a casual is someone who has less time, those that do not have time would hopefully still want a solid game. For my definition, I do not mean casuals as someone who is time sensitive.

    Casuals to me, in my mind and how it pertains to WoW, would be lazy and entitled with poor character.
    Wow. You're saying that someone who is unwilling to devote "enough" time to a game is lazy and entitled with poor character? How many hours did your parents spend playing video games? How about the guys who busted their butts building the house/apartment in which you live? How many hours a day do you think they spend playing? You need to rethink the meaning of lazy and entitled. I wish I had 12 hours a day to devote to playing WoW. Unfortunately I have a family to feed and a mortgage to pay off. I guess I'll just have to remain "lazy and entitled" because my "poor character" compels me to prioritize shelter and family over a computer game.

  8. #268
    Lets talk about what other game companies in other genre's do. Maybe that might be a good indication of what is wrong.

    Shooters for an example - everyone is on the same playing field, things are not made easier for casuals.

    What wow did was lower the game difficulty in most of the content (besides heroics) and so everyone is forced to play at the casual level, that sucks. So something is either wrong with Blizzard or there is something wrong with the community. It is a big divide but does WoW want the negative reputation it is gaining as each year passes?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Wow. You're saying that someone who is unwilling to devote "enough" time to a game is lazy and entitled with poor character? How many hours did your parents spend playing video games? How about the guys who busted their butts building the house/apartment in which you live? How many hours a day do you think they spend playing? You need to rethink the meaning of lazy and entitled. I wish I had 12 hours a day to devote to playing WoW. Unfortunately I have a family to feed and a mortgage to pay off. I guess I'll just have to remain "lazy and entitled" because my "poor character" compels me to prioritize shelter and family over a computer game.
    Seriously, go re-read my fucking post, slow down, read it carefully.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    Seriously, go re-read my fucking post, slow down, read it carefully.
    I think what he's saying is that using the term "lazy" for someone playing a computer game compared to another person playing a computer game is kind of absurd. We're all sitting on our butts playing a video game - unless you play while doing sit-ups, we're all just as "lazy." Nothing you do or don't do in game is lazy. In fact, finishing your in-game "chores" and moving back into real life is less lazy.

    Better terms that can describe the type of person you're talking about: impatient, antsy, whiny. It's almost always about the time it takes, not the effort it requires. A lack of patience and perseverance can describe such a person, but laziness doesn't work unless someone is actually physically tired of pressing a few extra keys on the keyboard.

    For example, if was one of the people pushing for AoE looting to come into WoW, it wasn't because I was too "lazy" to click on all the bodies, it's because I was too impatient... or maybe I just would rather spend my game time doing fun things rather than monotonous boring things. It's not even always a negative thing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    THIS. I'm so tired of these WoW-babies who never played an MMO before 2005 acting like Vanilla WoW was some mythical hardcore land of yore. WoW was ALWAYS "the casual game" from day one.

    All classes could actually level solo, items didn't permanently wear out, shit you didn't even lose XP or drop any of your equipment when you died. The hardcore vanilla raider slogging through Molten Core was a soft little casual baby compared to pretty much everyone playing every other MMO. Right from the start Blizzard began to realize that "casual = money".
    I remember switching because I couldn't be arsed to wait for 3 hours to get a group just to gain a little bit of XP. In WoW, I could log on, do some questing for a half hour, and log off. I didn't need help. In FFXI (and many other games that era and earlier) I HAD to find a group. And then proceed to monotonously grind enemies in the group, because you sure as hell couldn't kill the enemies on your own and get XP that's worthwhile. And you would die. A lot. And lose levels. And then when you finally got to endgame, you'd die a lot more, and lose more levels and then your gear would unequip and you'd have to go wait 3 hours to find a group again to gain experience.

    WoW was always casual, for sure. Every new game is trying to follow that suit, because it's so successful, not UNsuccessful. It didn't kill WoW, it MADE WoW.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    And that's why I said "in nine cases out of ten" at the end of the paragraph you quoted. Farming is easy, grinding mobs for leveling is easy. It just takes long time. You could grind easily non-elite mobs for zero challenge, it was simply time-consuming, not difficult unless you choose to make it difficult. Those elite mobs were group quests in vanilla, not meant for soloing and almost always not even possible to solo without outleveling it or with a pet class to cheat it.
    One thing is for certain, the base game isn't difficult at all since Vanilla. However you can do things that can be 'more difficult at this level', which is optional and not required to advance unless its a raid

    And yes, most elites can be soloed even Vanilla, bar 5 man required ones. Matter of knowing how, you are just one of the players who never tried

    For a game to be difficult then mechanically it should be hard even for a beginner, the old X-COM and Might and Magic games are good examples, where the games don't have a tutorial and you are never told what to do or where to go next

    WoW is pretty low on the difficulty scale, unless you choose to do the more difficult and optional content

  11. #271
    Yes. I also don't have to explain why. The sub losses speak volumes.

    Here's a hint: Non casual gamers generally don't enjoy casual games.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by sith View Post
    Yes. I also don't have to explain why. The sub losses speak volumes.

    Here's a hint: Non casual gamers generally don't enjoy casual games.
    So, because the game lost subs, therefore it must be because the game is casual? Talk about a fallacious logic leap.

    Actually, the fact that this game has had more subs than any other game ever speaks volumes. How did it get so popular? Because it catered to casual gamers from day 1. You're delusional if you think this game being casual lost subs. There are a lot of things that you can say caused a decline, but the game was built as THE casual game of the time. It got more casual and it boomed, peaking out at WotlK, which was extremely casual and accessible. It declined when they started making dungeons harder again (Cata) and declined further with Pandas.

    Considering the "elite few" are called that because they are, well, "few" would seem pretty obvious that a "few" did not cause the decline. Most of the subs lost? Casual players.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Seegtease View Post
    Actually, the fact that this game has had more subs than any other game ever speaks volumes. How did it get so popular? Because it catered to casual gamers from day 1.
    Not true, game didnt start to cater to casuals until late TBC and even then it was in only small things, Wotlk is cattering to casuals.


    You're delusional if you think this game being casual lost subs. There are a lot of things that you can say caused a decline, but the game was built as THE casual game of the time. It got more casual and it boomed, peaking out at WotlK, which was extremely casual and accessible. It declined when they started making dungeons harder again (Cata) and declined further with Pandas.
    Actually the 12 milion peak was in TBC, China didnt have Wotlk for a year and more because of some problems so you cannot say that the peak was in Wotlk

    Considering the "elite few" are called that because they are, well, "few" would seem pretty obvious that a "few" did not cause the decline. Most of the subs lost? Casual players.
    Most of the subs lost are not casual players but the opposite, why would casual players leave a game that is getting more and more casual with every expansion, that makes no sense at all.

  14. #274
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    lol you see all the casuals whining because LFR is gated? yes, they ruined the game.

  15. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pantelija View Post
    Most of the subs lost are not casual players but the opposite, why would casual players leave a game that is getting more and more casual with every expansion, that makes no sense at all.
    Because the game is not actual getting more and more for casuals. If anything the opposite is true. It's just that the developers have no clue what casual players want and instead make fundamentally incorrect design decisions in so far as the casual player base is concerned.

    don't have to take my word for it the business handlers for the developers said it themselves. They struggled with "casual engagement" at their last quarterly report.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Why is it better that the needs and happiness of a few be met at the expense of the larger majority?
    Where in my post do I say this? That's right, absolutely nowhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It is not a guarantee or truism that the quality of content will increase. In fact let's say they focused solely on YOU and YOUR DESIRES and NEEDS. How long do you think it would take before the development staff were laid off, fired, or moved to other projects? How long before the dip in subscribers forced changes in the game (purely financial and economic ones) that began to affect the game? I'm sorry it's not a truism that the quality of content would get better because the number of man hours aren't fixed. They are subject to economic and financial whims.
    So they're fixed? Good we agree. And yes, a team of devs all moving in one direction would likely put forth better content than one who's trying to spread content over a lot more ground. You can already see effects this has had in the game, with Cata being sub-par overall, partially due to the hours invested in the old-world rebuild.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The playerbase as a whole doesn't feel slighted, this is also not a truism. In so far as casuals are concerned they don't feel slighted they simple leave when they aren't entertained.
    I didn't say 'as a whole'. I inferred that portions of the playerbase who aren't active in certain game elements will feel neglected if their own content doesn't get equal time. You can even see this when there are per-class changes made, the folks with the least amount of updates feel left out. And contrary to what you say, you are apparently not entertained in the slightest by this game, yet you still play, so there's that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Expecting to lose some of your player base is clever.
    It's not clever, it's pointing out the current state of the game. You expect 5.4 to boost subs for anything more than a month?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    If they followed your design goals they'd lose MILLIONS and most likely have severe cutbacks insuring actually LESS content and less quality for all.
    Odd, they've already lost millions trying to please everyone who even thinks they might possibly enjoy this genre. How's that working out?
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  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Because the game is not actual getting more and more for casuals. If anything the opposite is true. It's just that the developers have no clue what casual players want and instead make fundamentally incorrect design decisions in so far as the casual player base is concerned.

    don't have to take my word for it the business handlers for the developers said it themselves. They struggled with "casual engagement" at their last quarterly report.
    Wotlk,Cata and MoP is cattering to hardcore playerbase?

    And Blizzard released the statement that if they didnt embrace the "casual revolution" for MoP state of game would be quite bad. I think that sentence speaks enough about the whole Casual vs Hardcore debate.

  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Where in my post do I say this? That's right, absolutely nowhere.



    So they're fixed? Good we agree. And yes, a team of devs all moving in one direction would likely put forth better content than one who's trying to spread content over a lot more ground. You can already see effects this has had in the game, with Cata being sub-par overall, partially due to the hours invested in the old-world rebuild.



    I didn't say 'as a whole'. I inferred that portions of the playerbase who aren't active in certain game elements will feel neglected if their own content doesn't get equal time. You can even see this when there are per-class changes made, the folks with the least amount of updates feel left out. And contrary to what you say, you are apparently not entertained in the slightest by this game, yet you still play, so there's that.



    It's not clever, it's pointing out the current state of the game. You expect 5.4 to boost subs for anything more than a month?



    Odd, they've already lost millions trying to please everyone who even thinks they might possibly enjoy this genre. How's that working out?
    You don't expressely say it but what your advocating is basically that. If you focus on one group at the expense of the other then ultimately the others won't have as much fun.

    No the hours aren't fixed. Ultimately the resources for production aren't either. Loosing the player base to cater to whichever specific group will not necessarily pay out in better content. Especially if the loss is big enough to mandate lay offs, firings, and transfers off to other projects. None of your truism are actually truisms they are basically bullshit pulled out of your ass whole cloth. The dev team moving all in one direction would likely get most of the dev team fired as the hundreds of people wouldn't be necessary to make content for such a small group. The overall quality would diminish ultimately.

    They've lost millions because nobody else is coming back to the game to make the turn over rate any good. Making the game less friendly for new entrants and for casual players won't solve that one bit. Hell even the hardcores have a turn over rate and they get replaced at even less a rate then casual players do. Nothing you've said will grow the game or fix retention rates. Even hardcores get burnt out.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pantelija View Post
    Wotlk,Cata and MoP is cattering to hardcore playerbase?

    And Blizzard released the statement that if they didnt embrace the "casual revolution" for MoP state of game would be quite bad. I think that sentence speaks enough about the whole Casual vs Hardcore debate.
    you cannot be serious? so you'll just blindly listen to anything blizzard says? that is FALSE. Game had way more subs when it wasn't a noob fest.

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pantelija View Post
    Wotlk,Cata and MoP is cattering to hardcore playerbase?

    And Blizzard released the statement that if they didnt embrace the "casual revolution" for MoP state of game would be quite bad. I think that sentence speaks enough about the whole Casual vs Hardcore debate.
    Wotlk was certainly more favored towards casuals. Cataclysm less so and mists especially less so.

    As for their statement about embracing it I can only say they are delusional if they think they did. My suspicion is that it's really just PR speak because the numbers guys have said the opposite. In mists they've really done less for casuals. they've offered them ghetto stuff but without any real character advancement behind it the game is less casual friendly than ever. Well short of tbc and vanilla I guess.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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