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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Wotlk was certainly more favored towards casuals. Cataclysm less so and mists especially less so.
    Cataclysm and MoP are less casual than Wotlk and previous expansions? Is this a joke? Random casuals in LFR were killing Deathwing with ease on the same week he got released and you think that is less casual than gated ICC and other things in Wotlk ?

    As for their statement about embracing it I can only say they are delusional if they think they did. My suspicion is that it's really just PR speak because the numbers guys have said the opposite. In mists they've really done less for casuals. they've offered them ghetto stuff but without any real character advancement behind it the game is less casual friendly than ever. Well short of tbc and vanilla I guess.
    I am not sure if you are pulling my leg or serious

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Joegrizly View Post
    you cannot be serious? so you'll just blindly listen to anything blizzard says? that is FALSE. Game had way more subs when it wasn't a noob fest.
    The game has always been a 'noob fest'. You just never saw them before LFG/LFR.

    Heck, a lot of those 'noobs' were probably raiders in the past. Considering how things have changed, it wouldn't suprise me - some roles in Vanilla were so hilariously simple and mindless that anyone could have done them. Compared to now, where some people can't even move out of a highly visible spell animation...

    Heck, I'd go as far to say that LFR Lei Shen might be harder then nearly every boss in Vanilla with 'appropriate gear' (I'll exclude most of Naxx40, since that was legitimately hard content). Certainly more mechanics and instant-kill abilities! First week that was available was... 'interesting'. If there weren't a small core of players keeping those groups together, or that Determination buff, I suspect he'd still be wiping groups 90% of the time! Hell, my LFR group wiped on him last night because people didn't know that moving out of AoE was a good idea (since its basically the only AoE in the entire instance that can and will one-shot people, and I'm very glad for it).

    Of all the bosses in ToT, it really is the one where you see the utterly horribad players for what they really are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pantelija View Post
    Cataclysm and MoP are less casual than Wotlk and previous expansions?
    In some ways. Normal modes are much less accessible, and time commitment for non-raiders wanting to 'do their best' is pretty steep compared to Wrath or Cata (especially in regards to alts!).

    LFR is mostly a snoozefest though. Probably moreso then Dragon Soul, since at least that had Spine and Madness that caused huge numbers of wipes due to ineptitude.

  3. #283
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    casuals ruined this game, just read the posts here... its obvious.

  4. #284
    Stood in the Fire Doomthulsa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joegrizly View Post
    casuals ruined this game, just read the posts here... its obvious.
    WoW was always casual. And plus, they make up the majority of subs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joegrizly View Post
    you cannot be serious? so you'll just blindly listen to anything blizzard says? that is FALSE. Game had way more subs when it wasn't a noob fest.
    Subs had NOTHING to do with the game's difficulty. WoW, no wonder you're banned. Hopefully its permanent.

  5. #285
    Mechagnome calmsea's Avatar
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    I think this has to be, what, the tenth time this topic had been posted this week?

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Pantelija View Post
    Not true, game didnt start to cater to casuals until late TBC and even then it was in only small things, Wotlk is cattering to casuals.
    Spoken like someone who has never played an MMO pre-WoW. WoW was a game-changer. It turned MMOs from hardcore to casual. It was the forerunner and new MMOs, seeing WoWs success, try to imitate the casual model because it works so well.

    Actually the 12 milion peak was in TBC, China didnt have Wotlk for a year and more because of some problems so you cannot say that the peak was in Wotlk
    Yes, it was. Don't argue points that you know absolutely nothing about. Here, I'll do your relatively easy research for you: http://www.statista.com/statistics/2...d-of-warcraft/

    Most of the subs lost are not casual players but the opposite, why would casual players leave a game that is getting more and more casual with every expansion, that makes no sense at all.
    Because there's more factors to a game than whether or not it's casual. Other things get worse, casuals leave too. Again, an elite few are the ones that are upset, because they no longer feel like they're up on their elite pedestal. Keep in mind that an elite few is still FEW. Even if all the elite few leave, the sub drop would not be as large as it actually is.

    It's all types leaving, but mostly casuals. It's easier for a casual to leave because they don't feel as invested as a hardcore player.

  7. #287
    Before they catered to casuals, the game had higher subs by far; numbers don't lie.

    So to answer your question IMHO, yes it's somewhat ruining WoW because most of them want the content too easy and they have no room for improvement because they want the content scaled down to their skill level instead of trying to rise for the challenge. They put almost no effort into their character with keeping up with the most simple of things such a stat prio, and some casuals I've seen have mixed gear like a resto druid with half cloth/leather gear. I've set down and tried to help and improve many players, linked them to websites, addons, etc and they still don't care and act like they don't have time to help themselves. I raid in a 13/13 heroic guild and STILL hold a full time job fine, wife and my first kid soon and CASUALS are a disgrace when they act like they can't do crap because they are casual.

  8. #288
    I don't think anyone ruin anything I just think the following.

    To Hardcore wanna be (not real hardcore people), ones that can only do normal and complain there is no challenge in Raid Finder
    1) Go do Hard mode
    2) Color means crap
    3) If you were up to date in gear you wouldn't need gear in Raid finder

    To Causal wanna be (Lazy people who want free loot for sitting around)
    1) your gear can not be same ilevel as Normal or Hard mode, why? because they work harder for theirs while you auto attack in Raid finder for yours
    2) No you can not get the new tier of raiding for Raid finder all at the same time as Normal, because normal takes skill to get through, Raid finder is afk grinding
    3) Be happy you have an option of raid finder, stop complaining about not making normal mode or Hard mode easier and that you are bore, try to find a guild and raid normal if you are bore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Merchy3 View Post
    Before they catered to casuals, the game had higher subs by far; numbers don't lie.
    and before they cater to casual the game was new, old things don't increase sales, would you buy an 10 year old Desktop for the same price as today New one? No
    Last edited by Kioshi; 2013-09-05 at 03:54 AM.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Merchy3 View Post
    Before they catered to casuals, the game had higher subs by far; numbers don't lie.
    You're assuming WoW had a time where they didn't cater to casuals. You're wrong.

    You're right, numbers don't lie. Subs were highest in WotlK, which was a very casual expansion. Your argument suddenly falls apart.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Pantelija View Post
    Cataclysm and MoP are less casual than Wotlk and previous expansions? Is this a joke? Random casuals in LFR were killing Deathwing with ease on the same week he got released and you think that is less casual than gated ICC and other things in Wotlk ?



    I am not sure if you are pulling my leg or serious
    One tier does not an expansion make. I'm not sure how you could ever conceive that Cata was more casual than Wrath was. If anything, Cata was a far smaller expansion, which led folks to consume a lot of it faster, which probably led to the feeling that it was more casual when DS was released... but prior to that tier? There's no way.

    /I just sort of agreed with GL on something. Marking my calendar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Heck, I'd go as far to say that LFR Lei Shen might be harder then nearly every boss in Vanilla with 'appropriate gear'
    Absolutely. If you want to see an "lfr isn't real raiding" advocate have fits, point out that original LFR Lei Shen and Durummu are both more difficult than some ICC / ToC / Ulduar bosses, and most of Naxx. So none of that must have been real raiding either.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Seegtease View Post
    You're assuming WoW had a time where they didn't cater to casuals. You're wrong.

    You're right, numbers don't lie. Subs were highest in WotlK, which was a very casual expansion. Your argument suddenly falls apart.
    Define "casual." What is a "very casual expansion"? What are you comparing it to?

    Wrath was less casual than Cata and Mists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post

    Absolutely. If you want to see an "lfr isn't real raiding" advocate have fits, point out that original LFR Lei Shen and Durummu are both more difficult than some ICC / ToC / Ulduar bosses, and most of Naxx. So none of that must have been real raiding either.
    Keyword being some. Even then, I can only think that the first several bosses in ICC, ulduar were easier than the 2 hardest bosses in LFR.
    Its not real raiding, they get a stacking buff that awards effort in LFR. Its designed so that you always get to kill the boss in the end if you try enough. That isnt raiding.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Seegtease View Post
    You're assuming WoW had a time where they didn't cater to casuals. You're wrong.

    You're right, numbers don't lie. Subs were highest in WotlK, which was a very casual expansion. Your argument suddenly falls apart.
    Most of these arguments should be viewed within the context of the game itself. Was vanilla more casual than EQ / AC / etc? Absolutely. Is it more casual now than it was when it was released? Absolutely.

    Prior game comparisons aren't necessary, IMO. I think if you gave the average wow player a crystal ball back in '04, and let him see what the game would be like now, he'd probably laugh and unsub.

    As for Wrath, don't underestimate the a) momentum that the game had as far as word of mouth via vanilla and tbc, b) the advertising that Blizzard put forth for Wrath (when's the last time you saw a wow tv commercial?), and c) the content and storyline itself. All of that played a bigger role in the sub spike than any single game element being easy or difficult.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  13. #293
    Nobody ruined wow. The game just evolved into what you see today. A lot has changed but a lot has improved.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by cityguy193 View Post
    Keyword being some. Even then, I can only think that the first several bosses in ICC, ulduar were easier than the 2 hardest bosses in LFR.
    Its not real raiding, they get a stacking buff that awards effort in LFR. Its designed so that you always get to kill the boss in the end if you try enough. That isnt raiding.
    That stacking buff was added long after the legitimacy arguments started about it.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    That stacking buff was added long after the legitimacy arguments started about it.
    Which solidified the fact that it is, and never was raiding by any metric other than just watching the lore.
    Which isnt bad, its a different experience.

    However, calling it raiding makes as much sense as calling farming cloth with several buddies, raiding, it just isnt it.

  16. #296
    No, blizzard ruined wow by assuming that creating a more casual environment would be healthy for the game. Casual players are just being what they are, they did not make that call.

  17. #297
    I really don't think casual or hardcore players has anything to do with the number of subscriptions. The problem with WoW is that it is just getting to be old news.

    It's not that it isn't fun to play or anything. It is simply a fact of life for MMO's. Really, all games go through this but MMO's just take a lot longer to die off. It is almost 10 years old now. Think about how much people change over that time. A lot of the gamers that started out with this game in the beginning probably have families or are in the early stages of their career. Being one of those people I simply don't have time to invest in this, or any other, MMO anymore.

    The truth is Blizzard had to, and must still, know that MMO's decline after X amount of years. It would have been good strategy for them to begin installing features for the more casual crowd. Just in terms of slowing the bleeding. And, the simple introduction of those features certainly didn't cause people to unsub. People unsub because they are bored with the game, out of money or out of time.

    It just isn't reasonable to think that people will play a game for decades at the kind of numbers WoW peaked at. Blaming "casuals"or "hardcores" is simply naively pointing fingers without considering what the normal trend is for MMO's. They ALL decline.

  18. #298
    Bloodsail Admiral De Lupe's Avatar
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    Considering how WoW is currently not ruined....the only correct answer is "no, they didn't".

  19. #299
    BRB so start thread "Did Supposed 'Hard Core' players ruin WoW and how so".

    EDIT: BTW Blizzard is laughing at all the "WoW" is dying threads. I guarantee they never thought they'd be able to milk $15 a month from MILLIONS of people for 9+ YEARS when the released WoW. Pretty sure Blizzard won folks! (myself included...don't even want to think about how much they've collected from me...but I've enjoyed the ride so far!)
    Last edited by Monkeybrains; 2013-09-05 at 04:55 AM.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    vanilla? casual as hell

    bc even more fucking casual

    wrath casualpalooza

    cata? hardcore twist turn fail

    mists CASUAL MIS CASUAL GONE MO CASUAL CASUAL @_@
    Thats because the latest expansion is never casual friendly @_@
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

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