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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by cityguy193 View Post
    Which solidified the fact that it is, and never was raiding by any metric other than just watching the lore.
    Which isnt bad, its a different experience.

    However, calling it raiding makes as much sense as calling farming cloth with several buddies, raiding, it just isnt it.
    It doesn't solidify anything, because LFR objectively is raiding, it's just terribly easy. So was Gunship. So was Jaraxxus So was Marrowgar, etc. Difficulty isn't a factor in the definition. The only argument that you might have is a) how groups are formed for it, and b) how loot is distributed.

    The whole argument is pointless anyhow. Many people refused to consider 10 mans to be real raiding either when they were introduced, same goes for normal mode. And people got over it.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse

  2. #302
    WoW is NOT ruined....still a great game. I have played since 2007 with lots of breaks in-between. I've played every expansion though, and I can say that MoP is still a ton of fun. I am currently taking another break from the game, but I've always enjoyed WoW and the changes it has made.

    I'm also a casual....so no, I don't think I ruined the game.

  3. #303
    High Overlord Etherius's Avatar
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    *Opens door*
    Hey, sorry to intrude, I just needed some ice for my-
    ...
    ...
    ... I'll come back later.
    *Closes door*

  4. #304
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    most of Naxx40, since that was legitimately hard content
    So Tell me, what was "hard" about Naxx40? To gather 40 ppl. ? To farm Shadow pots and Frost res. Gear ?

    We first killed Thaddius with 32 ppl. while 8 where sitting at the entry area of his Room because these 8 people always had a latency over 300. 4HM ? We had fever issues with them then with C`thun. Loatheb ? Blessed with 8 Shadowpriests in Full AQ 40 Gear this fight was so boring that ppl. where yawning the whole fight.

    At TBC it was more challenging to get the Healers ready for the Archimonde Fight by sending them into BG`s to get a Insignia then the Fight against Archimonde himself.

    @ Topic

    "Casuals" didn't ruin WoW, the ones who call themselves "Hardcore, Elitist" and the "special snowflakes" are these who are trying to ruin it.

    Just my 2 cent

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Rehija View Post
    So Tell me, what was "hard" about Naxx40? To gather 40 ppl. ?
    To be fair, getting 40 people online is probably the hardest thing that has ever been in WoW by far.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by I make people mad View Post
    They even admit the hardcore thing in Cata was a complete disaster and even better hahaha because of It's name ''Cataclysm'' :P
    Yet, sadly, it was in my opinion the best beginning of an expansion to date. I loved the dungeon difficulty, and earned my Drake from the heroic dungeons in all blue gear.

    I'm a casual too, but some people's definition. My guild raided 6 hours a week. We still got to hard modes in BWD / BoT / Firelands and DS.

    I don't raid anymore since my guild disbanded months ago, I instead leveled a new character on a new server for a different perspective. It's a nice change of pace.
    "Video games only exist, so that idiots have something to be good at" - Joe Hildebrand

  7. #307
    People who ruin WoW: "Give me stuff or I will cancel my sub!!!"

    Problem is that this is the argument of LFR heros ("If you change LFR I will cancel my sub!!!") who only stay subbed to see the content once and leave again, complaining that there is nothing to do. And Blizzard listened to them and is only now realizing (by the numbers of lost subscriptions) that you can't build a game around these unreliable, uncaring folks.
    Last edited by Ryva; 2013-09-05 at 05:39 AM.

  8. #308
    I think "regular' players are an important part of the game. every lowby just learning the ropes, every person selling stuff on the ah, every guildy, Everyone contributes to the life and health of the world. Discounting either side of the elite/casual debate is ignoring the bigger picture. I know great people who dont touch raiding with a ten-foot pole, and others who sail through heroic modes the way we'd casually run to the store for ice cream. Azeroth is better off with them all.
    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingBreezes View Post
    To be honest, the worst thing about Horde archetecture is how incredibly ineffective and easily destroyed it is. To take out an alliance fortress you need siege weapons and spies. To take out a Horde fortress you need some torches and a book to read while it all burns down.

  9. #309
    There is two upcoming anticipated games coming up this fall I believe, ESO and EQN, lets see how loyal the casuals are. Be a good test you think? Especially if just one of the two is good. Will be interesting.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Pantelija View Post
    Cataclysm and MoP are less casual than Wotlk and previous expansions? Is this a joke? Random casuals in LFR were killing Deathwing with ease on the same week he got released and you think that is less casual than gated ICC and other things in Wotlk ?
    Random casuals never asked to raid and never wanted to raid. Cataclysm and MoP are definitely less casual than previous expansions. Look at the number of 5-mans in each expansion since WotLK:

    WotLK - 16
    Cataclysm - 14 (and 4 of them were redone raids and/or revamped low-level dungeons)
    MoP - 9 (and 3 of those are revamped low-level dungeons)

    How do you figure that Cataclysm and MoP cater to casuals? It's all raid all the time. That's not casual. There this misguided notion that all casuals have been casting dewy-eyed gazes on the raiders and aspiring to become "good" enough to tread the same halls that they do when in reality most casuals couldn't care less about setting foot in raid. The only reason DW was dying in LFR was that the three Heroic Dungeons that were dropped at the same time could be facerolled in about a half hour apiece. What else were they supposed to do???

    MoP is even worse. No dungeons. Just dailies and scenarios that don't even require healers or tanks. Yeah, that really caters to casuals. Where do I sign up for that? Let me go re-sub right now. No, thanks. You're kidding yourself if you think this game has become more casual-friendly.

  11. #311
    Legendary! The Glitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryva View Post
    People who ruin WoW: "Give me stuff or I will cancel my sub!!!"

    Problem is that this is the argument of LFR heros ("If you change LFR I will cancel my sub!!!") who only stay subbed to see the content once and leave again, complaining that there is nothing to do. And Blizzard listened to them and is only now realizing (by the numbers of lost subscriptions) that you can't build a game around these unreliable, uncaring folks.
    What the hell is a LFR hero? Please do enlighten me? Is it those normal raiders that go into LFR and AFK their way through letting everyone else pick up their slack , whilst they come on the forums to mock and jape that they AFK through it and get their loots?

    Or is it just you being derogatory towards people that solely use LFR and enjoy it, to make yourself feel better?

    Because I play LFR only these days, that is my end game raiding, and I certainly do not go around demanding they give us X or I will unsub. Have been subbed for 8 years have never unsubbed in those 8 years , continually enjoy the game, and when they change things about that doesn't suit me, I find something else to do, or if my life changes I change my playstyle to suit.

    For me the game has only gotten better. More options, different ways to play, allowing more people into content they previously couldn't get into. Not sure whats wrong with that.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    Seriously, go re-read my fucking post, slow down, read it carefully.
    I re-read it and I stand by my statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    When I think of casual, I think of someone taking the easy way out, someone who cannot be bothered about decent gameplay.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    Casuals to me, in my mind and how it pertains to WoW, would be lazy and entitled with poor character.
    WoW is a fucking GAME!!! I don't know how else to put it. Foregoing mastery of a computer game in order to devote more time to mastering real-world skills that yield real-world rewards is not being lazy or entitled. Nor is it indicative of poor character. I have yet to experience a job interview where I would even feel comfortable bringing up my Heroic LK or DW kills. If anything it would reflect poorly on me because the hundreds (thousands?) of hours I spent mastering my WoW skills could have been better spent improving skills relevant to my job. If anything, your definition of casual is the opposite of lazy and entitled. Those people who devote every waking moment of the day memorizing raid strats, parsing their WoL logs, and practicing their rotations are the fortunate few. Of those few, the ones who expect everyone else to do likewise are the most lazy and entitled. Why? Because WoW is a GAME!!!

    Looking down on others because they don't have the luxury to play as much as you would like them to is completely ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seegtease View Post
    I think what he's saying is that using the term "lazy" for someone playing a computer game compared to another person playing a computer game is kind of absurd. We're all sitting on our butts playing a video game - unless you play while doing sit-ups, we're all just as "lazy." Nothing you do or don't do in game is lazy. In fact, finishing your in-game "chores" and moving back into real life is less lazy.
    That's another way of phrasing it, but it pretty much sums up the point I was making.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by sith View Post
    Yes. I also don't have to explain why. The sub losses speak volumes.

    Here's a hint: Non casual gamers generally don't enjoy casual games.
    Which is why there is exactly ONE non-casual MMO on the market. And it has less than 500k subs. This pretty much says everything.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantelija View Post
    Not true, game didnt start to cater to casuals until late TBC
    Vanilla was MUCH more casual than its competitors. It is WoW strategy from day one. And when competition becomes more accessible, you have to make yours so as well.

    Most of the subs lost are not casual players but the opposite, why would casual players leave a game that is getting more and more casual with every expansion, that makes no sense at all.
    Are you even serious? Non casual players are by definition a minority. Attributing the majority of the loss to them is silly.
    And why casual players leave a casual game? Well, because of time constraints. And because of two big mistakes called early Cata and early MOP. Those turned off quite a lot of casual players.

  14. #314
    Herald of the Titans Packers01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    It doesn't solidify anything, because LFR objectively is raiding, it's just terribly easy. So was Gunship. So was Jaraxxus So was Marrowgar, etc. Difficulty isn't a factor in the definition. The only argument that you might have is a) how groups are formed for it, and b) how loot is distributed.

    The whole argument is pointless anyhow. Many people refused to consider 10 mans to be real raiding either when they were introduced, same goes for normal mode. And people got over it.
    Jaraxxus on regular would be a raodblock to a lot of the LFR crowd.

  15. #315
    Bloodsail Admiral Magellanmini's Avatar
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    Please don't let this become a rose-tinted goggles thread stating that wow, Vanilla was far less casual and by that logic better. Vanilla was insanely difficult back in the day, AQ40 was stressful as hell (EMPERORS! C'THUN!) given the fact that classes were really difficult to play and even world bosses like Azuregos could be a bit of a pain. I think it's because of the casuals that the game has improved somewhat and we should be grateful that people can now have the option of going hardcore or casual since many people don't have a lot of time to invest into the game and only want to play it for a while. In that way, those that are dedicated to the game can get the best rewards and those that have less time can get good rewards equal to the difficulty setting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draenei View Post
    This sound like similar problem I faced on Exodar. You should consult O'ros. O'ros know best for you. Female is tricky subject.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanzlee View Post
    if this game still had the tbc model i think the subs would be even lower to be honest.

    so casuals are prob saving this game
    Ding.. I raided at least 3 days a week, up to 5 from vanilla through wrath. Never missing a raid, always prepared. I got to a point where I couldnt take it anymore so I quit. I got a new job however I work nights so even if I wanted to raid again my hours would interfere. Sometimes I work upwards of 16 hour days.. money is good right now.

    If I want to play I hop on to do a 5 man or LFR when I'm bored and I honestly love it. I like being able to see the raids that would otherwise be impossible for me see because of my hours. If it wasn't for LFR I would probably quit. I do pvp a little but I cant commit to anything because of my shift and the crazy hours I work.

  17. #317
    Players, as midguided as they might, will never be blamed for anything in my book. This applies to everything, whether it's the good old casual/hc debate, people complaining about OP classes in PvP/PvE, whatever.
    As such, no. Casual players are certainly not to blame for anything.

    I do believe that the devs failed to discern the 'needs' and 'wants' of the playerbase though, and mixed them up quite a bit (your job as a designer is to grant the need with a tiny bit of want, at a carefully planned pace), and they did open the pandora's box in the process somewhere around WotLK. They have been trying to fix that mistake since then, with little success so far. But players to blame? Certainly not.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    Players, as midguided as they might, will never be blamed for anything in my book. This applies to everything, whether it's the good old casual/hc debate, people complaining about OP classes in PvP/PvE, whatever.
    As such, no. Casual players are certainly not to blame for anything.

    I do believe that the devs failed to discern the 'needs' and 'wants' of te playerbase though, and did open the pandora's box in the process somewhere around WotLK. And they have been trying to fix that mistake since then, with little success so far. But players to blame? Certainly not.
    I still don't understand why they thought suddenly quadrupling the modes of a single raid was a good idea.

    Went from 25man or gtfo to 10/25 normal/hard.

    Then people rolled the idea and eventually that split off even further with lfr, flex and queueing with everything.

  19. #319
    Bloodsail Admiral Stevegasm's Avatar
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    Did casuals ruin MMOs would be a more appropriate question. From the very start, WoW has been thee casual MMO and the reason why it's a popular game.

  20. #320
    good thread, new stuff and..wait

    1. Casual players = player who don't invest much time into game

    2. Bad players = players who fail in LFR often

    Casual can be Bad and also Good (less usual), but definitely Casual ≠ Bad

    live with that

    @OP

    Imo amount of necessary daily questing and rep hunting in Cata screwed the game experience a bit. These should be optional with such rewards as vanity items, pets, special transmorg. gear, mounts, etc.

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