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  1. #341
    Wat

    Casuals have been here since beta.

    The word "casual" has many meanings.

    What do you also mean by "ruin". The game has made amazing improvements over time, some aspects of the game may have gotten worse but for the most part the game is fine. The only thing that can really "ruin" the game is it's old age.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Skymane View Post
    tldr dont feel entitled because you have too much time on your hands. Your 15 bucks is worth the same as mine.
    Demanding that a hobby be tailored to you specifically rather than simply finding one that suits you better is probably one of the best examples of entitlement I can think of, so your post is delightfully ironic.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Next time you guys log in, Blizzard should freeze your character, spawn your favourite mount and shoot it in the head. - Mormolyce

  3. #343
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    That's utter nonsense. My guild raided 2-3 nights per week since TBC and cleared most of the content in the game (including hardmodes). We had doctors and surgeons with families, we had people working on their M.Sc.s etc. It's a hobby like any other, you don't need 12 hours per day, if you can schedule 2-3 nights per week, it's enough time-wise. Your problem is not that you have a family and mortgage, your problem is that you're bad at the game and instead of trying to improve, you cry to Blizzard to give you everything with no effort.
    Some people can no longer afford scheduling even 2-3 nights a week.
    Also M.Sc = student = lots of time to waste despite all the BS they will tell you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    If you are going to throw in two hour heroics then I will throw in players complaints of waiting multiple hours just to fill a group on top of having to fly to the dungeon and run it which took at least half an hour to an hour or more and having to find replacement players being a pain in the ass resulting in more downtime or a disbanded group. The troubles of having to replace a player was often enough to force groups to work together with the group they had. Then there was heroic lockouts set to a day along with the VP equivalent reward rate of only running dungeons in WotLK being significantly lower than that of a player who full cleared both 10 and 25 man raids along with running a daily heroic and a weekly raid boss compared to Cata which equalized the gaps and vastly increased the rewards from running heroics.

    So pick your poison.
    Look, I'm not saying WOTLK pre-LFD was perfect, because it wasn't. Forming your groups manually was indeed a pain, but at least the heroics were more accessible than early cata. Also, the daily heroic made people run at least that heroic on a given day, concentrating the players. Plus, you could purchase a lot of stuff (including previous tier sets) with badges. But 3.3 and the months of ICC that followed allowed a lot of players to enjoy the game.

    It wasn't a perfect system and the devs prolly knew it, but instead of building upon it, they listened to some morons and made early Cata. This was imo the biggest mistake they made.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  4. #344
    Casuals don't ruin WoW, by definition I'm a casual since I've stopped raiding for the most part and don't play much anymore. I would say that feelings of entitlement (on all levels) ruins WoW from a player standpoint.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    If someone isn't engaged enough with the game to keep paying for it, that's the fault of the game designers. A consumer's right to dictate what does and does not satisfy them is inalienable.
    And nothing good comes by when Blizzard caters to what players want more then what they need. Two very different things sometimes.

    As requested my quick definition of LFR hero:
    A customer who plays WoW as a solo game, only keeps his/her subscription for few months per expansion and generally doesn't care for the game, it's mechanics or lore. An LFR hero keeps complaining and feels entitled to everything concerning gear and content. It should be catered to his/her needs or otherwise he/she threatens with cancelling the subscription. It is no use talking to an LFR hero, because he/she doesn't accept logical arguments, wether by Blizzard or other players.
    Last edited by Ryva; 2013-09-05 at 02:00 PM.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryva View Post
    And nothing good comes by when Blizzard caters to what players want more then what they need. Two very different things sometimes.
    So, you're ok with Blizzard ignoring what you say you want? Just to make sure we're not being hypocritical here.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler

    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    So, you're ok with Blizzard ignoring what you say you want? Just to make sure we're not being hypocritical here.
    Yep, I'm ok with that, because I'm not right all the time. Blizzard should do what is best for the game. Now I have different views, especially concerning LFR. But I don't feel entitled that Blizzard should cater to my wishes when it goes against the health of the game.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Catharsius View Post
    You are right to work for more substantial things in real life that will probably last longer than the things in WoW. But if a player can't be arsed to put enough effort into the game they havent earned the right to anything despite what they pay to play for the game. You wouldnt want a selfplaying Super Mario Bros right?
    Here's the thing: the players don't have to earn anything because they're the ones in control of this situation! I don't want a self-player Super Mario Brothers, but on the other hand if I had gotten a level where I simply ran to the right for five minutes immediately followed by one where I was constantly avoiding barrages of fireballs I would have immediately returned the game (actually it came free so I would simply not have played it again). Maybe I'm not entitled to run raid content on the most difficult level, but I'm also not obligated to continue to pay for a game that provides me with nothing but dailies. The thing is that it's not my loss. Blizzard wants my $15 per month. I'm not begging to throw my money at them. That's why the burden is on them to provide all players with content they can enjoy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catharsius View Post
    What you're dead wrong in is that the people who look into parses, strategies and similar things are lazy. Its a hobby they take very serious. Most are managing a reallife on top of that very sucessefully.
    Read that post again because I worded it very carefully. I called those people "the fortunate few." The lazy and entitled ones are the subset of that population that demands to play only with the very best. The ones who expect that everyone else that they play with should devote their life to a game like they did are displaying a sense of entitlement. Their refusal to share their knowledge with others, opting instead to insult them and troll their LFR groups is sheer laziness. Instead of saying, "Gee I'm lucky to have the time and resources to master a game at such a high level," they opt to brood on others' perceived lack of effort. That's their problem. It's not the casuals' fault that they're like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catharsius View Post
    The only casuals that are ruining it for wow economically is the ones who play for a month or two and then unsub after a few lfr/normal clears until the next tier. There's a shitload of thoose.
    A MMO is not a charity. I'm not obligated to fund it for everyone else's enjoyment. If Blizzard only puts out two months worth of heroic dungeons or gives me two months worth of gear upgrades I have every right to get bored and leave. Blizzard is ruining it for WoW economically by shifting all their resources into raiding. Don't put blame where it doesn't belong.

    Case in point:
    Quote Originally Posted by Skymane View Post
    I unsub after one month when a new patch launches nowadays. Why? Saw the content they made and i like the fact that others can enjoy it more if they want to but i don't have the fucking time anymore.

    elsewhise there is NOTHING that keeps me playing the game. MoP is one big grind, maybe timeless isle prooves interesting but i can't see me playing that for over 1 month without knowing everything on there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catharsius View Post
    Blizzard wants people to sub regularly which is why the lfr/normalmode crowd probably brings in the most money since they are the biggest in numbers. It's probably also the reason to why blizzard wants to put out content in a higher pace - to make sure as few people as possible unsub inbetween tiers.
    Well they're going about it the wrong way. The idea that raiding, in any form, is going to engage casual players is pure delusion.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-09-05 at 02:07 PM.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryva View Post
    Yep, I'm ok with that, because I'm not right all the time. Blizzard should do what is best for the game. Now I have different views, especially concerning LFR. But I don't feel entitled that Blizzard should cater to my wishes when it goes against the health of the game.
    So, we're actually in agreement. I don't think Blizzard should do what I want either, just because I personally happen to prefer it.

    What I DO think is that Blizzard should follow long term desires of the player (and potential player) population as a whole, as best they can, not that of a much smaller minority. And I think they could have done a much better job of this.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler

    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  10. #350
    Scarab Lord UncleSilas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    So, you're ok with Blizzard ignoring what you say you want? Just to make sure we're not being hypocritical here.
    Why on earth do they have to pay attention? The company make a product of their choosing, then offer it for sale/lease. You pay for said product/lease. If you're not happy with it you either demand a refund, or don't continue to pay for said product. You're unhappy with it, they're not.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    What I DO think is that Blizzard should follow long term desires of the player (and potential player) population as a whole, as best they can, not that of a much smaller minority. And I think they could have done a much better job of this.
    Two mistakes can be made here:

    1. Missinterpreting those on the forums as some kind of majority Blizzard is/should listening to solely.
    2. Thinking that the large majority knows best what is good for the game.

  12. #352
    Casuals turned WoW from a world into a theme park.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Some people can no longer afford scheduling even 2-3 nights a week.
    What do you mean "no longer"? There's always been players like that and will always be players like that. I was like that in vanilla, so what I did was 5-mans and gold making. I could've also done questing or PvP, or alts. The game has always had content for all playstyles, but now it only has one type of content (raid instances) that it tries to push on everyone.

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    What do you mean "no longer"? There's always been players like that and will always be players like that. I was like that in vanilla, so what I did was 5-mans and gold making. I could've also done questing or PvP, or alts. The game has always had content for all playstyles, but now it only has one type of content (raid instances) that it tries to push on everyone.
    Protip, it's the go to excuse people use when they've grown into adults and acctually should focus on something else than the game, but rather don't because they're still too addicted to it. That's why many consider LFR a blessing.
    You won't find an expanded version of my avatar here.

  15. #355
    Casuals have little to do with the downward spiral that wow is facing. The blame lies solely with ghostcrawler making terrible predictions and repeating the same mistakes over and over.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    They spent about the same amount of time watching TV instead, what's your point?
    In the context of his post your parents were lazy and entitled because they watch TV instead of improving their gaming skills. That was the point. Sorry you missed that.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    That's utter nonsense. My guild raided 2-3 nights per week since TBC and cleared most of the content in the game (including hardmodes).
    Ditto for me in Cataclysm. And I got sick to death of seeing the same bosses week in and week, watching the same (otherwise nice) players fail time and again on the same mechanics, and spending 30 minutes at the beginning of each raid trying to hunt down missing players and/or attempting to recruit a semi-geared pug from trade chat and/or friend lists. It's not a fun or social experience. It's the opposite of a game's intended purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    We had doctors and surgeons with families,
    Let me know how their divorces go.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    we had people working on their M.Sc.s etc.
    I long for those days. My typical day as a grad student:

    • Stumble into the office at noon clutching my cup of coffee
    • Spend 1-2 hours grading papers and/or preparing to teach class
    • Spend 1-2 hours taking or teaching classes
    • Spend 1-2 hours conducting research for my advisor
    • Spend 1-2 hours hanging out with my fellow students
    • Go home anywhere between 4 and 8 pm to do whatever the hell I want

    Good times.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    It's a hobby like any other, you don't need 12 hours per day, if you can schedule 2-3 nights per week, it's enough time-wise. Your problem is not that you have a family and mortgage, your problem is that you're bad at the game and instead of trying to improve, you cry to Blizzard to give you everything with no effort.
    You're ascribing motives and actions to me that have no basis in reality. I'm actually pretty good at the game and have always been invited into just about every guild that I've run raids with. I generally top the healing charts across all categories (HPS, Dispels, etc.) and seldom fail at any mechanic. I don't throw tantrums when I don't get the loot I want and I never rage when others struggle with mechanics. I've never cried to Blizzard and I don't expect to gain anything in the game "for free." On the other hand, I am sick to death of the raiding grind and since Blizzard refuses to put anything new into their game that doesn't revolve around raiding I don't see the point in sticking with WoW.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-09-05 at 02:31 PM.

  17. #357
    Blizzard ruined their own game by listening to small sections of the community that whine on their forums instead of making the game they wanted to make.

    Blizzard consistently made great games for a very long time before unfortunately folding to obnoxious forum posters and tweets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zillionhz View Post
    By fiber be purged

  18. #358
    Bloodsail Admiral dryankem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryva View Post
    People who ruin WoW: "Give me stuff or I will cancel my sub!!!"

    Problem is that this is the argument of LFR heros ("If you change LFR I will cancel my sub!!!") who only stay subbed to see the content once and leave again, complaining that there is nothing to do. And Blizzard listened to them and is only now realizing (by the numbers of lost subscriptions) that you can't build a game around these unreliable, uncaring folks.
    And yet it would take me a long time to find a post where a casual has actually posted "Give me stuff or I will cancel my sub!!" but I can sure find posts were raiders are complaining that a casual gets purple coloured names on their gear (and honestly who the hell cares).

    There are no LFR heroes claiming they are real raiders now, yet for some reason some raiders keep telling us the opposite and claiming it as fact.

  19. #359
    Back when I started in TBC I had [and I continue to have] very little time available for gaming purposes, the rest being eaten day-in and day-out by assignments etc. Small, fractured timeframe made it almost impossible for me to see even a meager dungeon - it merely takes fingers of both of my hands to count the grand total of dungeons I have ever been to prior to LFD tools and NONE of those have been completed, as groups were prone to breaking apart for even the most trivial reasons.

    The 'ZOMG! ! ! Death of social WoW! Caesuals ruined teh WOW!' that is LFD/LFR actually enabled me to see the insides of dungeons each time I logged in. I immediately rolled a priest so that I could get in even faster AND be of some use to a group. I finally felt that I get the most out of the local equivalent of 15$ per month.

    Bottom line: If 'casual revolution' 'ruined' WoW, then only in a manner that targets those who deserve their method of extracting 'fun' to be wrecked.

  20. #360
    So if the difference between casual and hardcore players is primarily determined by the amount of time they spend playing the game, then what would make the 'casuals' want to spend more time playing the game?

    Or should we be asking, how could we make it so that the 'hardcores' can spend less actual time playing the game but still get the same level of achievement/enjoyment out of it?
    Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
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