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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Ditto for me in Cataclysm. And I got sick to death of seeing the same bosses week in and week, watching the same (otherwise nice) players fail time and again on the same mechanics, and spending 30 minutes at the beginning of each raid trying to hunt down missing players and/or attempting to recruit a semi-geared pug from trade chat and/or friend lists. It's not a fun or social experience. It's the opposite of a game's intended purpose.

    You're ascribing motives and actions to me that have no basis in reality. I'm actually pretty good at the game and have always been invited into just about every guild that I've run raids with. I generally top the healing charts across all categories (HPS, Dispels, etc.) and seldom fail at any mechanic. I don't throw tantrums when I don't get the loot I want and I never rage when others struggle with mechanics. I've never cried to Blizzard and I don't expect to gain anything in the game "for free." On the other hand, I am sick to death of the raiding grind and since Blizzard refuses to put anything new into their game that doesn't revolve around raiding I don't see the point in sticking with WoW.
    No, I'm just describing the reality. You have always been able to see the end-game with 2-3 nights of raiding. And from what you describe, you were in quite bad guilds. No top guild even on a small server is going to be pugging from trade to fill their raids and then inviting the pugs to the guild. That's what the bottom tier guilds do. And that's fine. Those kinds of guilds have their place, and should have their content. But it doesn't mean they should automatically be guaranteed to get through all the raids in the game. I don't think you understand just how big of a skill gap there is between the kinds of guilds you describe, and the top guilds. You think you're "pretty good", but the reality is that you probably wouldn't have made it in my guild, for example. And that's fine too, you can either raid with groups more suited for you or improve your skills so you can make it in the top guilds. It's just that when you're less skilled and in a less skilled guild, you don't need as much content to fill your playtimes as highly skilled players in well run guilds.

    Anyway, the point is that the excuse of "I have wife and kids and mortgage and a supermodel gf on the side" or whatever is just an excuse. You can have all those things while still clearing content. The critical factor is skill. Skill in playing your character, skill in functioning as a member of a group and skill in time/life management. The game should have content for all skill levels (and dedication levels), but it should be different content. Because when you try to use the same content for everyone, you end up with a mess of compromises that really doesn't suit anyone (and as WoW has shown us, lose 2M subs/year).

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    I didn't get that from reading his post at all. Odd.

    Let me ask you this. Is killing an LFR boss as rewarding as defeating one that you've been working on for a few weeks? The whole 'pride' thing has nothing to do with knowing someone else can't clear a given hurdle (or even caring what anyone else does to begin with), but it's more about earning vs. being given an accomplishment.
    >Implying that working harder than the rest doesn't visibly pay off in the current shape of the game

    As of now, those who feel the need to work harder on how they progress through their dungeons and raids are capable of making entire ordeal easier not only for themselves, but for their teammates as well- -their progress and work being more visible in the QUALITY of their actions, with obtaining gear being that much less of a reason to feel proud.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Zafire View Post
    Considering the peak of WoW and FFXI were when the games were actually challenging and immersive, I'd have to disagree. In fact, ever since FFXI started going easy-mode in 2009, it went from a steady 500k sub base for five years down to a staggering 250k.

    We all know about WoW.
    If anyone in a position of authority, with market research and hard statistics at their disposal, thought that poopsock-mode raiding attracted or retained hundreds of thousands of players, poopsock-mode games would not be a "dying breed" as you put it. Oh wait, let me guess, you think that if WoW still catered to hardcores it would never lose subscriptions. There would just be 12 million people all sitting around doing attunements and staring at your epics for the next twenty years, right?

    This idiot notion, that the decline of the game is due to the hurt feelings of hardcores (and not F2P competition or the sheer age of the game) is the death-cry of "raiding culture" as a relevant part of mainstream MMO gaming. It's the pleasing fantasy that the hardcore culture has bought into as it's been marched off to the retirement home.

    Where are the hardcore games? Why isn't anyone making them? Are they all dumber than you? Do they, with their consultants and their stats and research, just not understand how popular exclusive raiding is? If it's so popular, why are you guys practically exiles in your own game anymore?

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine de Coolette View Post
    >Implying that working harder than the rest doesn't visibly pay off in the current shape of the game

    As of now, those who feel the need to work harder on how they progress through their dungeons and raids are capable of making entire ordeal easier not only for themselves, but for their teammates as well- -their progress and work being more visible in the QUALITY of their actions, with obtaining gear being that much less of a reason to feel proud.
    You didn't answer the question.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  5. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post

    Let me ask you this. Is killing an LFR boss as rewarding as defeating one that you've been working on for a few weeks?.
    Oh, it absolutely is not. But only a very small fraction of players will pay for the latter. Your beef is with the audience, not the devs.


    edit: shit, i misread your syntax, sorry
    Last edited by Callace; 2013-09-05 at 06:10 PM.

  6. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    What do you mean "no longer"?
    E.g. no longer being a student, changing jobs etc... People's occupations change.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskra View Post
    Protip, it's the go to excuse people use when they've grown into adults and acctually should focus on something else than the game, but rather don't because they're still too addicted to it. That's why many consider LFR a blessing.
    Indeed, this is often the case.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by punmar View Post
    Please stop talking about casuals vs hardcore for once. Lets start talking about real problem of WoW------->constant increase and demands of noob population in the game.....
    Actually, this is just plain false, as WoW does not attract new players very well, because the entry barrier is too high compared to your average MOBA or shooter game.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    You didn't answer the question.
    Rather the case of you failing to apply my answer to your question, but I'll try to write it in terms easier to comprehend and apply:

    Difficulty scale decreases- -so does the time required for a regular player to obtain related necessities. What is left? The fact that better-prepared player makes the whole experience less troublesome for himself and the rest - THIS is something that will be a cause of pride more stable and reliable than the pride derived from extensive basement dwelling aimed at maxing out stats to bring the dungeon boss down earlier than the 'casual'.

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine de Coolette View Post
    Rather the case of you failing to apply my answer to your question, but I'll try to write it in terms easier to comprehend and apply:

    Difficulty scale decreases- -so does the time required for a regular player to obtain related necessities. What is left? The fact that better-prepared player makes the whole experience less troublesome for himself and the rest - THIS is something that will be a cause of pride more stable and reliable than the pride derived from extensive basement dwelling aimed at maxing out stats to bring the dungeon boss down earlier than the 'casual'.
    Masterful question dodging. You should become a politician.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  9. #389

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    E.g. no longer being a student, changing jobs etc... People's occupations change.
    What's your point? There has always been people of all kinds of backgrounds in WoW.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    You think you're "pretty good", but the reality is that you probably wouldn't have made it in my guild, for example. And that's fine too, you can either raid with groups more suited for you or improve your skills so you can make it in the top guilds.
    Seeing as how you've never even played with me you have no basis on which to make that determination. I counter that healing through raids in which players constantly fail on mechanics and 30% of the group is undergeared/inexperienced is far more difficult than healing a group of consistent experienced players in proper raid gear. I'm willing to bet that my raiding experience has been far more challenging than that of any healer in your guild (provided your guild is as you described) and that I could, after clearing away some of that rust and gearing back up, go toe to toe with any one of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    It's just that when you're less skilled and in a less skilled guild, you don't need as much content to fill your playtimes as highly skilled players in well run guilds.
    It's just that your definition of "well run" is borderline sociopathic. In your eyes a well run guild in WoW is one in which players who are not as skilled are simply discarded like yesterday's trash so they don't slow everyone else down. I can't even fault you too much for that point of view because this is pretty much what Blizzard has been forcing on raiding guilds since Cataclysm. I'm sorry to say that (professional sports aside) this is not conducive to a healthy gaming environment. A MMO is supposed to be social. It's kind of hard to be social when social skills lose all relevance. Guilds can't raid with the nicest, most helpful, and/or most cooperative players. They have to go with the well-geared diva tank and the experienced jerk who pisses everyone off but pulls the most DPS. That's not a pleasant environment, but that's what most raiding guilds are forced to select for.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    Anyway, the point is that the excuse of "I have wife and kids and mortgage and a supermodel gf on the side" or whatever is just an excuse.
    And a pretty darn good one, I might add.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    You can have all those things while still clearing content.
    Yes, but you may not have them for long.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    The critical factor is skill. Skill in playing your character, skill in functioning as a member of a group and skill in time/life management.
    Skill doesn't mean a thing if there are only 5 decent raiding guilds on your server and they're all raiding weeknights from 4-6 pm or from 11 pm - 1 am. At that point you have to make choices:
    • Pay $25 to move a character to a raiding server knowing that there's no guarantee you'll even enjoy playing that character after the next batch of nerfs
    • Roll on a different server and remove all your friends from RealID so they quit begging you to help them raid on your old crap server
    • Tell your wife/kids/boss to go to hell and adhere to established raiding schedules (which does not speak well for your time/life management skills)
    • Realize that no game is worth this level of aggravation and simply unsub
    I picked the last option, and given the recent sub numbers I don't think I'm the only one who did.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    The game should have content for all skill levels (and dedication levels), but it should be different content. Because when you try to use the same content for everyone, you end up with a mess of compromises that really doesn't suit anyone (and as WoW has shown us, lose 2M subs/year).
    This is pretty much the only thing you and I agree on. There should be content for everyone, not just content for raiders. Right now it's just content for raiders. These claims that LFR is content for casuals are off base. LFR is content for former raiders turned casual players, but that's about it.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-09-05 at 06:26 PM.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Masterful question dodging. You should become a politician.
    The only aswer you expected was 'YES' or 'NO', while the situation was too complex for a binary answer.

    If I replied 'YES', then you'd burst into tirade on how retarded my point of view is.

    If I replied 'NO' then you would have dismissed my original stance on the grounds I was ultimately agreeing with you.

    Now you are free to crawl back to whatever private vanilla-WoW-only server you came from to ruin the scent of air with your inane drivel.

  13. #393
    Immortal Arbs's Avatar
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    I don't blame casuals for eveything only minor things nothing that is really game breaking, Its more the whiners I believe are responsible for destorying WoW.

    Whiners can be both Hardcore or Casual, but recently its been people who play casually that have been whining alot. It's the entitlement they think they deserve is what has destoryed the game in general. You are now handed everything as you don't have to work for anything anymore.

    It just the feel of hardwork & accomplishment is now gone, because of a bunch of people whined that they deserved everything cause they paid the sub fee they demanded to have this and that & now they got almost everything handed to them and people don't stick around aslong as they get everything so easy.

    Its really sad how people who don't wanna put in any effort destory a good game & now all those play F2P / P2W games so they can have everything all they need to do is throw money at there screen & get the useless junk the games have on their cash shops.

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    If anyone in a position of authority, with market research and hard statistics at their disposal, thought that poopsock-mode raiding attracted or retained hundreds of thousands of players, poopsock-mode games would not be a "dying breed" as you put it. Oh wait, let me guess, you think that if WoW still catered to hardcores it would never lose subscriptions. There would just be 12 million people all sitting around doing attunements and staring at your epics for the next twenty years, right?

    This idiot notion, that the decline of the game is due to the hurt feelings of hardcores (and not F2P competition or the sheer age of the game) is the death-cry of "raiding culture" as a relevant part of mainstream MMO gaming. It's the pleasing fantasy that the hardcore culture has bought into as it's been marched off to the retirement home.

    Where are the hardcore games? Why isn't anyone making them? Are they all dumber than you? Do they, with their consultants and their stats and research, just not understand how popular exclusive raiding is? If it's so popular, why are you guys practically exiles in your own game anymore?
    You're taking my "idiot notion" out of context.

    Vanilla WoW was NOT "hardcore". I like a game that drifts between casual and hardcore. Back in Vanilla WoW I could log in every day for one or two hours and could somewhat progress my character. It wasn't really hard at all until you got to raids and had to try and coordinate forty people. The reason I praise it so much is because it was immersive while still having challenging attributes. You were always in danger of death if facing more than one enemy, pures/hybrids existed, specs didn't completely define you, you had to travel all over to find profession trainers, the world felt huge, and you couldn't really have an alt without severely crippling your main. THAT is the kind of game I want to play again.

    FFXI in 2005 WAS a "hardcore" game, though. You had to find 5 other like-minded people to kill monsters over and over to gain experience, and even in good parties after level 50 it could take upwards of six hours or more of doing the same thing to gain one level. You generally could make no progress at all unless you had at least four hours to play, and maybe not even. Soloing was out of the question, even good solo classes taking five+ minutes to kill something of equal level. You'd sit around competing with 3+ other "guilds" for one 21-24 hour spawn mob, sometimes taking upwards of 2+ hours to spawn and you likely wouldn't get it anyway. I wouldn't go back to something like that ever again.

    In late 2005 they lowered experience needed after level 50. FFXI started dumbing the game down in 2008 with one of their expansions,making levels 55 until cap go much quicker with easier and quicker spawning mobs. It still took a LONG time to go from 55-cap, and it didn't make the rest of the older content useless, as some of the older content equipment was still BiS. There was more low-man content available to get great gear, and I really felt the game was in a good place at that time.
    Last edited by Zafire; 2013-09-05 at 06:38 PM.

  15. #395
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    I blame the community, not a sub-genre. WoW is still an amazing game, once you take a step back for a couple of weeks you really come to realize why you loved it so much in the first place.

    Unless I don't remember my PRE-BC (I refuse to refer to it as vanilla, because it sounds fucking retarded and always has) days correctly, there were about 60 levels where no body knew shit about a "raid" or strived for that to be the ONLY out come of the game.
    "Happiness is finding two olives in your martini when you’re hungry." ~Frank Sinatra

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    It's just that your definition of "well run" is borderline sociopathic. In your eyes a well run guild in WoW is one in which players who are not as skilled are simply discarded like yesterday's trash so they don't slow everyone else down. I can't even fault you too much for that point of view because this is pretty much what Blizzard has been forcing on raiding guilds since Cataclysm. I'm sorry to say that (professional sports aside) this is not conducive to a healthy gaming environment. A MMO is supposed to be social. It's kind of hard to be social when social skills lose all relevance. Guilds can't raid with the nicest, most helpful, and/or most cooperative players. They have to go with the well-geared diva tank and the experienced jerk who pisses everyone off but pulls the most DPS. That's not a pleasant environment, but that's what most raiding guilds are forced to select for.
    First you accuse me of baseless "determinations", then you proceed to make baseless determinations yourself. There's nothing "sociopathic" about it. It's a private group that has certain criteria for the players. Ours happened to be very high skill level, because we wanted to clear all the content in 2-3 nights of raiding (which we did). If you didn't match that expectation we wouldn't accept your application, and if you lied in your application you wouldn't pass your trial. There's nothing nefarious or unhealthy about it. We weren't some cold psychopathic machines that you'd like to think of us as being. We had a group of very nice, helpful and cooperative players, had great fun in raids and even had multiple real life meetings to get drunk together. You just can't imagine that people can be nice and very highly skilled at the same time. You have to believe that the well-geared tank must be a "diva" or that experienced player must be a "jerk", and that the raid environment must be terrible just because the people are skilled and only want skilled players in the raid. Well, I'm sorry to disappoint you but that's not true. You might want to turn those keen psychological analysis skills towards yourself and ask yourself why you have the need to believe that.

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbsbear View Post
    I don't blame casuals for eveything only minor things nothing that is really game breaking, Its more the whiners I believe are responsible for destorying WoW.

    Whiners can be both Hardcore or Casual, but recently its been people who play casually that have been whining alot. It's the entitlement they think they deserve is what has destoryed the game in general. You are now handed everything as you don't have to work for anything anymore.

    It just the feel of hardwork & accomplishment is now gone, because of a bunch of people whined that they deserved everything cause they paid the sub fee they demanded to have this and that & now they got almost everything handed to them and people don't stick around aslong as they get everything so easy.

    Its really sad how people who don't wanna put in any effort destory a good game & now all those play F2P / P2W games so they can have everything all they need to do is throw money at there screen & get the useless junk the games have on their cash shops.
    The 'recreational chore' model was good and reliable back in the days of early Contra. Nowadays- -lawl, not so much. With so many games out there, the 'supply' is much less of a factor than 'demand' as of now.

  18. #398
    You mean those bastard players who pay their monthly fee but don't strain the servers or clog up the queue by constantly being logged on? Those bastard casuals who go through content slowly and generally don't bitch about "nothing to do" because they're still leveling a toon through old content, or just getting to Thunder because they can't raid twice a week or even once a week, but can run LFR whenever it suits them? Those damned casuals who don't know how to PvP so are always easy pickings when they show up undergeared in the battlegrounds? Those lame-ass casuals who, without even trying, float the guild xp, contribute to the guild vault, and buy and sell regularly on the AH? The dastardly casuals who account for the vast majority of players in WoW, without whom more servers would be dead, realm economies would be basically non-existent, and you could never find a decent pug again?

    Yeah, those jerks really ruined the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    WoW would be a great game if it weren't an MMO.

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranganathan View Post
    You mean those bastard players who pay their monthly fee but don't strain the servers or clog up the queue by constantly being logged on? Those bastard casuals who go through content slowly and generally don't bitch about "nothing to do" because they're still leveling a toon through old content, or just getting to Thunder because they can't raid twice a week or even once a week, but can run LFR whenever it suits them? Those damned casuals who don't know how to PvP so are always easy pickings when they show up undergeared in the battlegrounds? Those lame-ass casuals who, without even trying, float the guild xp, contribute to the guild vault, and buy and sell regularly on the AH? The dastardly casuals who account for the vast majority of players in WoW, without whom more servers would be dead, realm economies would be basically non-existent, and you could never find a decent pug again?

    Yeah, those jerks really ruined the game.
    You just wrote my WoW-specific biography.

  20. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    vanilla? casual as hell

    bc even more fucking casual

    wrath casualpalooza

    cata? hardcore twist turn fail

    mists CASUAL MIS CASUAL GONE MO CASUAL CASUAL @_@
    Please explain how wow was casual back in vanilla and tbc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neezh View Post
    Wow isn't ruined.
    Depends on the way you see it. In my eyes yes, I do believe its ruined but its the players who did it. Blame the community and not blizz.

    OT; I think this post sums up my thought on your topic:

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbsbear View Post
    I don't blame casuals for eveything only minor things nothing that is really game breaking, Its more the whiners I believe are responsible for destorying WoW.
    I think this is just another casual bashing thread but you changed the title to make it seem a little less obvious. It's the whiners who ruined it. Casuals are just a type of people and some aren't even reading these forums demanding changes as they are just enjoying the game. Overall blizzard got confused on what people wanted which lead to the downfall of the community in wrath and the birth of casuals. After realizing their mistake and trying to change it in cata caused much more confusion when they realized that the community has mostly been casuals at the start of cata. Whiners are the ones changing the game and casuals are only responsible for minor things.

    On a second thought, it could be the player base that has changed. Not everyone since vanilla is playing atm as they either have found jobs,got married,etc... so now comes the younger generation which needs everything instant without taking time or effort to do. And overtime made people get used to getting epics with minimal effort.

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