Page 21 of 69 FirstFirst ...
11
19
20
21
22
23
31
... LastLast
  1. #401
    The Patient Paarthurnax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    317
    It was ultimately Blizzards shift in policy from "its okay that some people won't see all the content" to "everyone has the right to see all of the content" that is to blame for how the game is today. Sure id say that casual players didn't help with all the demands to see and experience all the fruit wow has to offer w/out having to put forth any real effort or learn the intricacies of their class in the process.

    So what we end up with is everyone expects to get everything every patch, and see everything whiles its current regardless of how much or little you play the game. The game itself has very few true challenges unless you go out and look for them, and as a result the game does a substandard job of properly teaching players how to be effective in a non LFR raiding environment.

    I think this video does a good job of highlighting some of the issues that arise with the new overall game philosophy Blizzard has: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zLP-ugJP7g

    Main:Paarthurnax | Alt:Peijing | <Huge in Japan> 14/14H US#16
    “Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.”
    --Littlefinger

  2. #402
    The Lightbringer
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Silvermoon City
    Posts
    3,623
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    What's your point? There has always been people of all kinds of backgrounds in WoW.
    The point is that people can move from a situation where they can raid to another where they no longer can. Is it such a bold statement?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by enchanted View Post
    Please explain how wow was casual back in vanilla and tbc.
    It was more casual than its competitors at the time (EQ/LA/UO) which was enough to draw large crowds.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbsbear View Post
    Whiners can be both Hardcore or Casual, but recently its been people who play casually that have been whining alot. It's the entitlement they think they deserve is what has destoryed the game in general. You are now handed everything as you don't have to work for anything anymore.
    And yet, it's the whines from wannabe hardcores that gave us early Cata and early MOP. Ironic, isn't it?

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  3. #403
    WOW was from Day One the most casual MMO thats why they had so much success. I think in TBC they realized that players who stop playing stopped because they didnt have the time to play. Back then you needed to play a lot more than today even as casual. So they changed the gameplay to hold the players that would otherwise unsubbed. In WotlK they reached the peek with subnumbers. I think they did the right thing untill then.
    In Cataclysm everything went downhill, i think the problem was that there was no new continent. It felt boring and not like a full addon. They just tweak the game since then to keep the subnumnbers. I think many would have stop a long time ago, if they still needed to put the insane hrs like in tbc.

    For me the game is old now, i would never ever do the stuff like back in tbc where i was younger, had more time and motivation. A lot of the players (millions) will think this way. I like hardcore games and hard games but therefore i play other better suited games. WOW is just the casual game where you meet some old friends from back in the day and raid casually as long as we have some of us playing. Many stopped long time ago, just to move on not because the game was bad.

    And i really dont get the peeple who says vanilla was the best and everything after that is bad and still playing? are you masochist? just change to a game you would like more, maybe? ^^ This game has changed along time ago, it will not go back, never.... You dont get more subs, when you make the game more time intensive. Time is money ^^
    Last edited by Kritisch; 2013-09-05 at 07:06 PM.

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Paarthurnax View Post
    It was ultimately Blizzards shift in policy from "its okay that some people won't see all the content" to "everyone has the right to see all of the content" that is to blame for how the game is today. Sure id say that casual players didn't help with all the demands to see and experience all the fruit wow has to offer w/out having to put forth any real effort or learn the intricacies of their class in the process.

    So what we end up with is everyone expects to get everything every patch, and see everything whiles its current regardless of how much or little you play the game. The game itself has very few true challenges unless you go out and look for them, and as a result the game does a substandard job of properly teaching players how to be effective in a non LFR raiding environment.

    I think this video does a good job of highlighting some of the issues that arise with the new overall game philosophy Blizzard has: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zLP-ugJP7g
    Thing is, World of Warcraft's general gameplay model and engine doesn't allow much flexibility- -you either have practically gated content OR effortless dungeon crawling. Button-mash a few skill slots and WHAM! victory! isn't too flexible, either.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    First you accuse me of baseless "determinations", then you proceed to make baseless determinations yourself. There's nothing "sociopathic" about it.
    I'm sorry, but my accusation was not baseless. It's an impression I formed from your previous posts. Let me acquaint you with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Its symptoms, as defined in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders are:
    • Envies others and believes others envy him/her
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    The problem is that the self titled "casuals" (who are often in reality "bads" rather than "casuals") are not happy that there's content for other play styles than theirs. These are people who cannot be happy even if the game has more content for them than they could every consume, as long as someone else is doing content that they're not good enough or dedicated enough to get into.
    • Is preoccupied with thoughts and fantasies of great success, enormous attractiveness, power, intelligence
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    For me it's not about *taking* a shortcut. It's the fact that a shortcut exists that makes the content meaningless to me. What makes me enjoy a gaming experience is a hard challenge that requires great skill and effort, and that you can't just skip to through easymodes or overgearing etc.
    • Expects to be recognized as superior and special, without superior accomplishments
    • Expects constant attention, admiration and positive reinforcement from others
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    It's perfectly fine and normal to want to be special. Why would I want to play a game that makes me feel like I'm just another drone on an assembly line?
    • Has expectations of special treatment that are unrealistic
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    My point is that I want the progression style of TBC (before they started breaking it down with nerfs and "accessibility" nonsense).
    • Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    It's a private group that has certain criteria for the players. Ours happened to be very high skill level, because we wanted to clear all the content in 2-3 nights of raiding (which we did).
    • Lacks the ability to empathize with the feelings or desires of others
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    If you didn't match that expectation we wouldn't accept your application, and if you lied in your application you wouldn't pass your trial.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    There's nothing nefarious or unhealthy about it. We weren't some cold psychopathic machines that you'd like to think of us as being.
    Except that many of your posts indicate otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    You just can't imagine that people can be nice and very highly skilled at the same time. You have to believe that the well-geared tank must be a "diva" or that experienced player must be a "jerk", and that the raid environment must be terrible just because the people are skilled and only want skilled players in the raid. Well, I'm sorry to disappoint you but that's not true.
    You're twisting my statement. I said that the game favors the well-geared diva tank over the socially adept newly dinged level 90 tank. There's a big difference between favoring and mandating. On a highly progressed server it is much easier to have a well-geared socially adept tank because there are many to choose from. Unfortunately, most servers are not highly progressed. If you want to get anything done beyond LFR you have to make sacrifices. That's why the all-raid-all-the-time model doesn't fit everyone and why low progression servers are rapidly dying while the queue on Stormrage grows ever longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    You might want to turn those keen psychological analysis skills towards yourself and ask yourself why you have the need to believe that.
    I think I did a reasonable job of establishing the criteria on which I based my opinions. I chalk it up to mere logic. Casuals didn't ruin WoW. Narcissistic attitudes on the part of players and game designers did.

  6. #406
    The Patient Paarthurnax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    317
    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine de Coolette View Post
    Thing is, World of Warcraft's general gameplay model and engine doesn't allow much flexibility- -you either have practically gated content OR effortless dungeon crawling. Button-mash a few skill slots and WHAM! victory! isn't too flexible, either.
    Flex raiding is their attempt to fix the damage that LFR ultimately has done to the raiding community. The gulf a new player must cross to get from 5 man's to 25 man normal mode raiding so so massive most people don't make it. I liken it to the proverb about giving a man a fish vs teaching a man how to fish, in a sense blizzard is currently only giving people what they want, not teaching them how to get it themselves. This is echoed in the steadily decreasing sub numbers as well, people come back for new stuff but don't really stick around long since you can be given everything it offers in such a short time, and with little to no effort to boot.

    Main:Paarthurnax | Alt:Peijing | <Huge in Japan> 14/14H US#16
    “Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.”
    --Littlefinger

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Paarthurnax View Post
    Flex raiding is their attempt to fix the damage that LFR ultimately has done to the raiding community.
    Hmm, that has an error in it. Let me fix it for factualness.

    Flex raiding is their attempt to fix the damage that overtuned normal modes have done to the raiding community.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  8. #408
    The people who say it's unplayable now are the ones who have been "dumbed down" not the game. The game is as hard as you want it to be and that's how it should be. As for the "casuals", they've been around since day one. Thank God the BC days are gone with their exclusivity. They should never return. The more "hard core" whiners the game loses, the better off it will be.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Paarthurnax View Post
    It was ultimately Blizzards shift in policy from "its okay that some people won't see all the content" to "everyone has the right to see all of the content" that is to blame for how the game is today. Sure id say that casual players didn't help with all the demands to see and experience all the fruit wow has to offer w/out having to put forth any real effort or learn the intricacies of their class in the process.

    So what we end up with is everyone expects to get everything every patch, and see everything whiles its current regardless of how much or little you play the game. The game itself has very few true challenges unless you go out and look for them, and as a result the game does a substandard job of properly teaching players how to be effective in a non LFR raiding environment.

    I think this video does a good job of highlighting some of the issues that arise with the new overall game philosophy Blizzard has: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zLP-ugJP7g
    What you describe is exactly how the game should be. Everybody should be able to see everything while it's still current. Blizzard has done a great job of ensuring that.

    The game is as hard as you want it to be.

  9. #409
    Mechagnome
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Inside Aggra's Womb.
    Posts
    655
    Really? Do we really need arguments on psychology in this thread?

    The simplest and easiest reply to put forward in this thread is as follows:

    The "casual" player-base in WoW cannot be defined as being a singular unit of players who are all the same. Neither can it be judged based on the perceptions of the word "casual" and what it means...

    Casuals have existed in WoW since day one. Believe it or not, it's true. Back then, the player-base was much less diverse due to content not being very diverse. As WoW "diversified" over the years, the Casual/Hardcore player-based began diversifying too. There are many types of "casual" - from the casual-Vanilla players to the casual LFR-once-a-week people.

    "Casuals" didn't ruin this game, that is an absurd, black-and-white statement. Let's be honest here: WoW has changed, neither for the better or the worse and you know why? Because some people like it, some people don't. I say that if you don't like what WoW is today, quit. Is that so hard to do?

    People who claim "LFR made the players stupid" are still ignoring the fact most LFR players never raided before. Funny how they always choose to ignore this fact, as stated by Blizzard many times.

    And what's worse is the way elitist people judge casuals as being less intelligent/kids etc etc...pathetic! These people know nothing of the very diverse player-base they are insulting! I'm casual, I don't go around being rude, playing badly or griefing others. None of the casuals in my family-run guild did that either (or, well you know - they'd be G kicked!!!) so PLEASE, give it a rest with the hate. DO this and you're no better than the casuals who claim hardcores are "no-life loosers in their moms basements". Urgh.
    Chickens are awesome.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I think I did a reasonable job of establishing the criteria on which I based my opinions. I chalk it up to mere logic. Casuals didn't ruin WoW. Narcissistic attitudes on the part of players and game designers did.
    Well that sure was entertaining. Completely wrong. But entertaining nonetheless. You're seeing things that you want to see, not what's actually there. It all goes back to your need to see more skilled players as having some major flaws, which you will then invent for them. It's an ego defense of yours.

    The reality is that more skilled players are not sociopaths, or narcissist, or anything else you'd like to brand them as. Sure there are such players, but they don't correlate with any particular skill level. It's just that you need to see the people who are more skilled, and therefore achieve more than you, as such. Going to ridiculous lengths like thinking that end-game raiders are only doing what they do, putting in countless hours every day, to get gear just so they can impress you. Talk about narcissism.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    Well that sure was entertaining. Completely wrong. But entertaining nonetheless. You're seeing things that you want to see, not what's actually there. It all goes back to your need to see more skilled players as having some major flaws, which you will then invent for them. It's an ego defense of yours.

    The reality is that more skilled players are not sociopaths, or narcissist, or anything else you'd like to brand them as. Sure there are such players, but they don't correlate with any particular skill level. It's just that you need to see the people who are more skilled, and therefore achieve more than you, as such. Going to ridiculous lengths like thinking that end-game raiders are only doing what they do, putting in countless hours every day, to get gear just so they can impress you. Talk about narcissism.
    I wasn't talking about skilled players. I was talking about you. More specifically, I was talking about your posts. Maybe you're actually a nice guy RL but your posts just come off as narcissistic. Sadly, the fact that you can't see the distinction underscores my point.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-09-05 at 08:31 PM.

  12. #412
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    10,403
    Quote Originally Posted by Meme Arrows to green text View Post
    I still don't understand why they thought suddenly quadrupling the modes of a single raid was a good idea.

    Went from 25man or gtfo to 10/25 normal/hard.

    Then people rolled the idea and eventually that split off even further with lfr, flex and queueing with everything.
    Because they wanted more people to raid. Specifically, they wanted those that had never raided to have it accessible. It's as simple as that. Whatever you think about Blizzard, the game, the devs or anything else associated with it, raiding is and has always been the design crown jewel of the game in terms of the care they take to make it. WoW without raids is pretty much another game. When only 10-15 percent of all players are playing in that content then that's a problem. It's expensive to produce and once the game population arc flattens and starts to go downslope there's no viable business reason to build expensive content for just a relative few people. So first 10's then LFR, then flex and everything else have all been designed to make raiding more and more accessible to all.

    Like it or not, just look at it and think about it and it's clear that that is how it works and what has happened.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Let me ask you this. Is killing an LFR boss as rewarding as defeating one that you've been working on for a few weeks? The whole 'pride' thing has nothing to do with knowing someone else can't clear a given hurdle (or even caring what anyone else does to begin with), but it's more about earning vs. being given an accomplishment.
    You didn't ask me that but I'll exercise my forum rights to answer anyway .

    No, it's not. However there comes a point with some bosses where the frustration of wiping makes the first time you finally get him down not so much a triumph as a relief. That's subjective of course but it's not good either. Some people have the mentality to fail 100 times at a task--often for nothing they did wrong--and many others don't. I admire the ones that can do that but I'm not one of them.

    Neither should necessarily be criticized. It's just different. It doesn't make you a better or worse player.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-09-05 at 08:57 PM.
    If you have anything to contribute to a thread topic, please do so. Discussing moderation or calling out specific people is against the rules and makes a post liable for an infraction. Please report problem posts. If anyone is unclear about the rules please read our FAQ. Thanks.

    It's a magical world, Hobbes, ol' buddy...let's go exploring!

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by enchanted View Post
    Please explain how wow was casual back in vanilla and tbc.
    Compared to EQ1, EQ2 and Ultima Online... WoW Vanilla was as complicated as Tic-Tac Toe.
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    Compared to EQ1, EQ2 and Ultima Online... WoW Vanilla was as complicated as Tic-Tac Toe.
    Let's not forget Asheron's Call.

    Also, this video says it all, really.


    "There are two types of guys in this world. Guys who sniff their fingers after scratching their balls, and dirty fucking liars." -StylesClashv3
    "Elo Hell is where the Ego is greater than the Elo." -Bystekhilcar

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    Let's not forget Asheron's Call.

    Also, this video says it all, really.
    Not that video again. All that video says is that trolls no longer garner undue attention by ruining everyone else's pugging experience in LFR. I think that's a good thing. When I'm grouped with 24 complete strangers I'm happy that my raid won't wipe because some nitwit didn't have the sense to utilize their class's key abilities (poison on daggers in his case).

  16. #416
    Pandaren Monk
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Behind you
    Posts
    1,932
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    Compared to EQ1, EQ2 and Ultima Online... WoW Vanilla was as complicated as Tic-Tac Toe.
    Ahh thnx for pointing that out. Forgot about how wow competed with these mmo's back then.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I wasn't talking about skilled players. I was talking about you. More specifically, I was talking about your posts. Maybe you're actually a nice guy RL but your posts just come off as narcissistic. Sadly, the fact that you can't see the distinction underscores my point.
    And what I'm saying is that you only think my posts come off as narcissistic because it's an ego defense mechanism of yours. I bet I can take a list like yours and lift comments out of context for any user with 500+ posts that superficially appears to match (not that the quotes you lifted even matched the definitions you posted).

  18. #418
    The Patient Paarthurnax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    317
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Not that video again. All that video says is that trolls no longer garner undue attention by ruining everyone else's pugging experience in LFR. I think that's a good thing. When I'm grouped with 24 complete strangers I'm happy that my raid won't wipe because some nitwit didn't have the sense to utilize their class's key abilities (poison on daggers in his case).
    That's not what the video is about at all, but i can see why you would only see that side of it. The video only really highlights the idea that very new players to wow don't know any better when it comes to what allot of us more seasoned players take for granted. That is the whole gearing up process, min/maxing your gems/enchants what items you use, or the whole process of seeking out quality guilds, the idea of a Journey.

    Back in less forgiving expansions like TBC, content before raiding had some challenge and the focus on was group content so getting away with afk'ing 5 mans or LFR wasn't an option if you wanted to "see the content", you would have to put forth more base effort to get the same results. This process made players better as a result or more willing to fine tune what they were doing to be more efficient at things, then that leads into raiding 25 man's or 10 mans and carrying that min/max spirit there and so forth.

    There isn't anything in MoP that pushes people towards that ultimate goal or anything that prepares them for normal mode raiding, sure some will argue that "normal modes are way too overtuned" but that just feeds into the game not challenging people prior to that point so of course ToT would seem that way.

    Why do you think Proving Grounds and Flex Mode Raids are being created? They are an attempt to help advance players stuck in that hit 90->5mans->LFR->What Next? Cycle.

    Main:Paarthurnax | Alt:Peijing | <Huge in Japan> 14/14H US#16
    “Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.”
    --Littlefinger

  19. #419
    I personally feel like the whole casual attitude ruined the general feeling of WoW. I understand why there are so many casuals, I understand why Blizzard are going the way they are with LFR and flex etc - I totally get that, but I personally feel like - If EVERYONE was able to raid properly, the game would be more fun as a whole. Unfortunately, some people can't/don't want to so there 'has' (not really) to be alternatives for them otherwise the game will go down the tubes.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    I personally feel like the whole casual attitude ruined the general feeling of WoW. I understand why there are so many casuals, I understand why Blizzard are going the way they are with LFR and flex etc - I totally get that, but I personally feel like - If EVERYONE was able to raid properly, the game would be more fun as a whole. Unfortunately, some people can't/don't want to so there 'has' (not really) to be alternatives for them otherwise the game will go down the tubes.
    Jesus Christ...

    Prior to LFD/LFR, for one to be able to raid 'properly' - or rather to be able to dungeon-delve/raid AT ALL - was to EITHER have plenty of free time to use up on gaming OR be a part of a decent raiding guild. Notice how both factors have N-O-T-H-I-N-G to do with 'ability' to properly pursue these activities.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •