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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    So Blizzard has to bite the bullet, stop resorting to half measures, and just throw the hardcore players under the bus.

    It's not as if they have a choice in trying to please the casuals, you know. They've basically come out and said doing that isn't optional.
    I'd almost like to see this happen, just to observe the results.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse
    I still prefer seeing Thrall rather than blood in my urine, that doesnt make him a good character. - Verdugo

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I'm leaning toward the theory that the inclusion of ANY hardcore content repels the casuals. So Blizzard has to bite the bullet, stop resorting to half measures, and just throw the hardcore players under the bus.

    It's not as if they have a choice in trying to please the casuals, you know. They've basically come out and said doing that isn't optional.
    They weren't pleasing casuals, they were pleasing bads. Casuals don't care about hardcore content, that's what makes them casuals. It's the bads that play a lot, but get nowhere because they're bad, that whine for this dumbing down.

  3. #503
    I don't understand these types of posts. If you want to play the game hardcore, you can, is you want to play it casually, you can do that too. If you want to be hardcore then maybe you should try for world first kills, or maybe go for gladiator. Hell, go for both of them at the same time. If you don't have much time to play then you can play casually as well. That's why lfr exists.

    These discussions serve no purpose other than to create arguments. The game being casual friendly takes nothing away from hardcore players, it just means there's more people running around.

    No one is more entitled to anything in the game whether their casual or hardcore. Yes, we all have to pay a fee to play, but what we do once we're in game is up to us. If you only have 5 or 6 hours a week to play, you're not going to be running around in heroic gear. At the same time if you have no job and are able to sit and play all week long, you have no right to tell others with less time to play what they should and should not be able to do.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by Rahl View Post
    I don't understand these types of posts. If you want to play the game hardcore, you can, is you want to play it casually, you can do that too.
    Don't you think that if you actually could do that, then people wouldn't be here complaining? In theory, sure, you can do anything. The problem is that the practice is very different from theory. On my realm we had dozen solid 25-man end-game guilds on both factions from TBC to Cata. Now there are none. Zero. I'd like to do 25 man progression raiding, but I cannot.

    The root of the problem here is that they try to use the same content for everyone. Create different sets of content for different groups and bulk of the problems disappear. Sure there will be some kids whining that someone else has some toys they don't, but that's unavoidable in a game full of kids.

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Do you feel compelled to buy other products that aren't aimed at your specific interests? I enjoy hockey, maybe I should buy tickets to a baseball game.
    So does that mean you hardcore types are all going to quit finally? Because the magical day when Blizzard removes LFR and rolls back to Burning Crusade is never coming and we all know it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    And the results of that decision can be read from the subscriber numbers. Just because they have "literally hundred of millions of dollars" doesn't mean that every choice they make is right. Nokia once was worth literally hundreds of billions, yet they were just sold for a few billion because they made bad choices.
    I'm just going to keep pasting this at people like you.

    I bet if they kept the TBC model, subscriptions would have stayed at peak forever, right? No matter how old the game got, or what other games came out, or how free they were to play, people would just sit around in World of Warcraft looking at your epics and doing hardcore raids until the heat-death of the universe, yeah?

    But don't worry, sure Blizzard is foolish enough to ignore the endless money-geyser that catering to a tiny, noisy, elitist minority provides, but that doesn't mean everyone else is. Surely some other company is about to come out with a hardcore raiding MMO that will set the world on fire, gain twenty million subscribers, and put those Blizzard fools out of business.

    Bpfffahahahahah-- sorry, I couldn't keep a straight face. Yeah sorry, but MMO developers have finally realized that your ilk isn't worth the trouble. Have fun hating everything in this genre until the end of time.

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    I'm just going to keep pasting this at people like you.
    You can keep pasting it all you want, it still won't make any sense.

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    You can keep pasting it all you want, it still won't make any sense.
    Here's the thing: What you think doesn't matter. You're not a participant in a spirited debate, you're a target dummy. This battle is over, and the hardcores lost. LFR is never going away, TBC is never coming back, and you know it. You can piss and whine a bunch of bullshit about how a nine-year old subscription MMORPG could ONLY be losing players due to your idiot pet issue, but nobody takes it seriously. We don't, Blizzard doesn't, and neither does anyone else in the industry.

    Where are the games, jackass? Where are all the super hardcore raiding games stealing Blizzard's thunder? Why has all this bullshit about casualization harming subscriptions apparently not occurred to anyone else anywhere in the entire MMORPG industry? Maybe because you're just some crybaby jackass irrelevant hardcore pitching a bitchfest from the trash heap of history.

    Now excuse me, I have to go queue for LFR and polish my welfare epics with your fucking tears.

  8. #508
    Wasn't casuals exactly that ruined wow, but bad players (LFR guys, but obviously not just them) that wanted everything over nerfed.. now everyone clears content on Tuesday or Wednesday and have nothing left to do lol.

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Yes, it's a game that requires you to play it to get anywhere. Purchasing any game at all is simply a grant of access, not success. Why do you expect this one to behave differently?

    Why not just make a level 1 character, then start putting in tickets asking why you aren't 90 yet?
    Name one account of a casual player who put in tickets demanding features. That's a fantasyland scenario that you concocted. I never said that you should simply be awarded gear without even playing. I simply said that Blizzard needs to offer diverse content if they want to attract a diverse crowd. If all they offer is raids all they're going to get is raiders, and raiders have historically been a very small segment of the in-game population. If I don't like raiding why should I pay for access to raids?

    Look at the game from my non-raider's perspective. In WotLK we had 16 different Heroic dungeons, and I could run one every single night with the expectation of repeating instances maybe twice a month (if that). I had to save up a month's worth of badges to get an upgrade but I was OK with that.

    In Cataclysm we started with six new dungeons and two rehashed ones. I could save up justice points, but there was no chance in hell of getting anything better than what had already dropped from those dungeons. If I ran just one dungeon every day I could expect to repeat dungeons weekly. Let me put it another way. As a casual player I only got a third of the content that WotLK had been giving me. If you exclude the rehashed instances that goes down to 1/4 of the content. I was OK with that for a bit because I thought the situation would get better.

    Then the troll heroics hit. Both of them were rehashed raids, gave higher rewards, and had to be queued for separately. So now we're down to only two dungeons to pick from. Now I'm at 1/8th of the content that WotLK provided! Blizzard made some concessions by offering the current tier's gear for VP, and now that I could now reasonably valor cap through dungeons I could purchase raid gear. That didn't change the fact that I only had two dungeons to run and you can only run them so many times before getting bored. So I started to raid FL.

    My first observation: Shannox and Beth'tilac were easier than Jin'do. Why were their drops 25 ilevels higher? That's kind an an arbitrary "f u" to non-raiders to me. My second observation: Raiding is boring as hell. Raiders are constantly running one and only one instance on any given week. That gets old fast. The content is consumed in two phases: first you bash your head against the boss repeatedly, imploring everyone to avoid bad things and/or perform their role better. At some point the magic line is crossed and everything becomes second nature. From then on that boss is "on farm" and you're mindlessly hitting them up for gear. The middle ground where you participate in a suspenseful battle to see if you can take down the boss in time lasts maybe two weeks, but outside of that you're either experiencing extreme frustration or extreme boredom. Unlike dungeons, you can't even switch out players or bring in alts to spice things up a bit because one ungeared character derails the whole raid.

    So now I was raiding, my guild split, and I opted to follow the splinter group lead by the guy who actually put some effort into leading the raids because he got a really raw deal from the old guild's leader. These kinds of politics are the reason I quit raiding in WotLK shortly after starting, but since there was nothing else left for me to do in the game I was resigned to deal with them. By this time all the non-raiders had basically left the game so no one who wasn't already locked to another guild's raid was available to shore up deficiencies in the roster on a given week. From time to time I would see my old friends return to check things out, but they never stuck around long enough to be raid-worthy. This was already the state of the raiding scene and note that it was before LFR was even introduced.

    Then Dragon Soul hit. I was excited that we got three new heroics this time, but my excitement was short-lived because I was able to faceroll all three of them in less than two hours. They were on yet a third tier of queueing so even though my dungeon choices went up by one, it still felt like I wasn't getting much content. If I had wanted to go back to my dungeoneering lifestyle I would still be repeating dungeons an average of two times a week instead of three times a week.

    LFR was a temporary boon because we were temporarily able to bring non-raiders into our normal raids without having them instantly die. It also gave me a chance to practice mechanics and innovate new strategies in a low-stress environment where misjudgements weren't so costly. Unfortunately, it also exposed the loot arguments and angry elitists that raiding inevitably spawns to the masses.

    Now we get into the MoP era, which promises to bring the game's appeal back to the casuals. At this point I was weeks off of my Heroic DW kill and after doing the same content week in and week out I was pretty sick of the game. I didn't even buy the expansion and I took a break from the game. When the expansion went on sale for $20 I couldn't resist trying it out so I picked it up. Because I had subscribed to the annual pass I still had a few months on my sub. What did I find? Level 90 in about a week. A crap ton of dailies. Six new dungeons and three rehashed ones. So we're basically back in Cataclysm again, except the dungeons are complete facerolls. As a healer I spent about 10 seconds per boss healing and the rest of the instance I might as well have been on autofollow. Scenarios were even worse. If I even tried to heal those I would get raged at for not being DPS.

    What's worse is that in the meantime my guild has been unable to retain raiders. I wasn't 90 for two weeks before they were pulling me into raids to heal. By the time the next month was out I had taken over as the primary healer because our monk left the game to deal with family issues. I felt like I was back in the same old grind again: Faceroll through MSV up to Elegon and then spend hours pushing into new phases with a 6-man core team and four puggers/infrequent raiders. Within the month my VP gear and raid drops were far better than anything I could get in LFR with the exception of the Sha-touched weapon. I saved my coins and killed the Empress three times a week to no avail. The frustration of running the same old crap week in and week out was compounded by bad RNG. I have to say that LFR is not fun and I would never in a million years have dreamed of quitting normal raids to make time for LFR. That is a complete myth.

    Blizzard is failing to engage casuals because this is the casual experience that WoW offers now: raid or be bored out of your mind. If you don't like the raiding experience then it boils down to: be perpetually frustrated or be bored out of your mind. LFR doesn't help the casual experience very much, but blaming it for killing raids is overstating the situation. Without LFR the casual experience would suck even more than it already does. No one ever whined for raids. No one ever put in tickets demanding better gear or instant levels. Most players were simply less optimistic than I was. When Blizzard first made their opinion of casuals clear via their early Cataclysm design decisions many casuals saw the writing on the wall and split. The rest of us have just taken longer to come to the realization that it's probably never going to get better. WoW is now a raiders' game that is best left to raiders. I doubt that I'll change your mind, though. Keep believing that casuals won if it makes you feel any better.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-09-06 at 06:43 PM.

  10. #510
    Yes casuals ruined wow. I remember playing during BC and hating the long graveyard walks and the difficulty in leveling. However the fact that everything was so difficult made having a max level character all the more rewarding. That sense of accomplishment is gone when I can get to 90 with heirlooms in a week. Having a lv 60 or 70 was a big deal back in the day. Now SW and Org are swamped with 90s and any noob can do it fast.

  11. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    I'm just going to keep pasting this at people like you.
    That argument falls completely apart when you consider how this game played while it was growing, and how it plays now while subs declining. Unless you've deluded yourself into thinking that Blizzard is making all the right moves now, it's simply that nearly half the playerbase has left because of 'it's old' or 'other games are f2p'. That's a splendid way of deflecting any blame or shortcomings on the product itself.

    It also makes the childish mistake of assuming that everyone who enjoys a more challenging game does so explicitly because of some inferred exclusion of other players.

    In short, the statement is rubbish, and re-posting it doesn't make it any more correct.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse
    I still prefer seeing Thrall rather than blood in my urine, that doesnt make him a good character. - Verdugo

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    Here's the thing: What you think doesn't matter. You're not a participant in a spirited debate, you're a target dummy. This battle is over, and the hardcores lost. LFR is never going away, TBC is never coming back, and you know it. You can piss and whine a bunch of bullshit about how a nine-year old subscription MMORPG could ONLY be losing players due to your idiot pet issue, but nobody takes it seriously. We don't, Blizzard doesn't, and neither does anyone else in the industry.

    Where are the games, jackass? Where are all the super hardcore raiding games stealing Blizzard's thunder? Why has all this bullshit about casualization harming subscriptions apparently not occurred to anyone else anywhere in the entire MMORPG industry? Maybe because you're just some crybaby jackass irrelevant hardcore pitching a bitchfest from the trash heap of history.
    Oh, an internet tough guy! Honestly, I don't really care. I haven't been Blizzard's customer for a long while, and I doubt I'll ever be again. However, it's you who's got his head in the sand. The game has been losing 2 million subs per year on average since late 2010. None of the changes Blizzard has made to "increase accessibility" have done anything to change that trend (and one could speculate that it's in fact the cause of the trend). How long do you think ATVI shareholders are going to sit and watch one of their key properties crash and burn before they force action? But that action won't fix the game though, it's going to be WoW going f2p with microtransactions and pay2win through the nose. I hope you'll enjoy it, because it's inevitable. And with Titan indefinitely postponed there's not going to be anything coming out from Blizzard to take WoW's place for a long time.

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by taurenguard View Post
    I will never understand why people prefered to have to: feed pets with shit, buy vials and poison mats, buy arrows, buy runestones for portals, symbols for paladin buffs and all that crap. I hated all of that stuff...
    Well, if you continue to remove things like that if the new instant gratification crowd does not like it, all that will be left at some day is instant max level and a chest of loot as soon as you log in.

    All of the things people complain were part of a game. Reaching a goal in a game is cool but if the way to the goal is too short because everything in between gets removed it gets old way too fast...

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    That argument falls completely apart when you consider how this game played while it was growing, and how it plays now while subs declining. Unless you've deluded yourself into thinking that Blizzard is making all the right moves now, it's simply that nearly half the playerbase has left because of 'it's old' or 'other games are f2p'. That's a splendid way of deflecting any blame or shortcomings on the product itself.
    So where are all those highly successful hardcore raiding games again? Where is all the competition gleefully profiting from Blizzard's foolish mistake? Pretty sure RIFT and those other games still don't have an LFR, why haven't any of them gone up a few million subscribers in the last couple of years?

    Spoiler Alert: It's never going to happen. Back when Ultima Online nerfed its unrestricted full-loot PVP, all the gankers crashed the forums for the next few years and screamed about how subscribers were down and it was all because their noisy disliked minority got shafted. It was exactly like this LFR stink. Big surprise, no new "PVP EVERYWHERE" games became big hits, UO continued to chug away to this day, and a minority of disenfranchised hardcores kept shitting up the forum because they had nowhere else to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    Oh, an internet tough guy! Honestly, I don't really care. I haven't been Blizzard's customer for a long while, and I doubt I'll ever be again.
    Don't worry, I'm sure some hardcore poopsock raiding game will come out any day now and do 12 million subscribers. Yep. Any day now. It's only a matter of time until everyone catches up to your genius and realizes that catering to you is the path to success. Any day now. LOL.
    Last edited by Grimble; 2013-09-06 at 07:16 PM.

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I never said that you should simply be awarded gear without even playing.
    You said, and I quote: If you want to work for rewards get a job. WoW is a game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I simply said that Blizzard needs to offer diverse content if they want to attract a diverse crowd. If all they offer is raids all they're going to get is raiders, and raiders have historically been a very small segment of the in-game population. If I don't like raiding why should I pay for access to raids?
    Blizzard does offer more diverse content now than ever before. Lots of it for very occasional players And while raiders have always been a minority, raiding has always been THE culmination of PvE gameplay here. This is not some new occurrence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    In WotLK we had 16 different Heroic dungeons, and I could run one every single night with the expectation of repeating instances maybe twice a month (if that). I had to save up a month's worth of badges to get an upgrade but I was OK with that.
    You will get no argument from me that 5 mans have taken a back seat. MoP's are the most forgettable of any expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    In Cataclysm we started with six new dungeons and two rehashed ones. I could save up justice points, but there was no chance in hell of getting anything better than what had already dropped from those dungeons. If I ran just one dungeon every day I could expect to repeat dungeons weekly. Let me put it another way. As a casual player I only got a third of the content that WotLK had been giving me. If you exclude the rehashed instances that goes down to 1/4 of the content. I was OK with that for a bit because I thought the situation would get better.

    Then the troll heroics hit. Both of them were rehashed raids, gave higher rewards, and had to be queued for separately. So now we're down to only two dungeons to pick from. Now I'm at 1/8th of the content that WotLK provided! Blizzard made some concessions by offering the current tier's gear for VP, and now that I could now reasonably valor cap through dungeons I could purchase raid gear. That didn't change the fact that I only had two dungeons to run and you can only run them so many times before getting bored. So I started to raid FL.
    Again, no argument. Lots was wrong with Cata in regards to 5's rewards (oh hi, chaos orbs), as well as troll heroics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    My first observation: Shannox and Beth'tilac were easier than Jin'do. Why were their drops 25 ilevels higher? That's kind an an arbitrary "f u" to non-raiders to me.
    This probably had a lot to do with who you were with. I had done several attempts at both of these, and my groups had a lot of trouble with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    My second observation: Raiding is boring as hell. Raiders are constantly running one and only one instance on any given week. That gets old fast. The content is consumed in two phases: first you bash your head against the boss repeatedly, imploring everyone to avoid bad things and/or perform their role better. At some point the magic line is crossed and everything becomes second nature. From then on that boss is "on farm" and you're mindlessly hitting them up for gear. The middle ground where you participate in a suspenseful battle to see if you can take down the boss in time lasts maybe two weeks, but outside of that you're either experiencing extreme frustration or extreme boredom. Unlike dungeons, you can't even switch out players or bring in alts to spice things up a bit because one ungeared character derails the whole raid.
    Well, yeah, it's a whole different experience, not always a positive one. If you find it boring, that game element simply isn't for you then. I personally get burned out on raiding far quicker than a lot of players... once a boss is defeated, it's rare for me to really be inclined to go back, even if it means missing out on gear (when I was raiding in a guild back in Wrath, and we finally got LK down, I never set foot in the place again, I was so sick of it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Blizzard is failing to engage casuals because this is the casual experience that WoW offers now: raid or be bored out of your mind. If you don't like the raiding experience then it boils down to: be perpetually frustrated or be bored out of your mind. LFR doesn't help the casual experience very much, but blaming it for killing raids is overstating the situation. Without LFR the casual experience would suck even more than it already does. No one ever whined for raids. No one ever put in tickets demanding better gear or instant levels. Most players were simply less optimistic than I was. When Blizzard first made their opinion of casuals clear via their early Cataclysm design decisions many casuals saw the writing on the wall and split. The rest of us have just taken longer to come to the realization that it's probably never going to get better. WoW is now a raiders' game that is best left to raiders. I doubt that I'll change your mind, though. Keep believing that casuals won if it makes you feel any better.
    Well, that's the thing. Raiding itself is far far more accessible now than ever before. Even if a person decides to not consider LFR to be 'tru raiding', the mode still prepares people far better for a given boss fight than anything prior in the game, if they should decide that they enjoy it. Beyond that, there's pet battles. More pvp modes and more maps. There's challenge modes. There's world bosses. An expanded DMF. Farming. The Brawlers Guild. On and on. This is the approach they've taken in terms of trying for more variety, for a wider audience. Folks can say 'I don't like it', and that's fine, but it's another thing to simply pretend that the effort towards more casual content doesn't exist.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse
    I still prefer seeing Thrall rather than blood in my urine, that doesnt make him a good character. - Verdugo

  16. #516
    High Overlord Laz's Avatar
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    They didn't ruin it, go fly a kite
    Quote Originally Posted by Solidseal View Post
    We see you trollin' , we hatin' ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Sevaara View Post
    Fuck off retard, stop posting your useless shit.
    Quote Originally Posted by xannax2780 View Post
    It's called balancing. Maybe you should try balancing the large cup of QQ in your left hand with a big mug of STFU in your right. Just sayn'

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    Don't worry, I'm sure some hardcore poopsock raiding game will come out any day now and do 12 million subscribers. Yep. Any day now. It's only a matter of time until everyone catches up to your genius and realizes that catering to you is the path to success. Any day now. LOL.
    I have no idea why you keep talking about hardcore raiding. I was never a hardcore raider, just a progression raider for 2-3 nights (and a casual in vanilla). The way the game is today does not appeal to me either as a casual nor a progression raider. Just out of curiosity, who do you think the 2 million people leaving the game every year are? Hardcore? No, they're players from all background, all of them finding the state of the game not worth their money or time. Casuals are not happy with the state of the game, bads seem to be though.

  18. #518
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    Casuals are not happy with the state of the game, bads seem to be though.
    Of course they are not happy, they got 5.0 with a bajillion dailies after Cata 4.3 and yeah, that caused a massive exodus. But if you think the solution is to return to TBC, you're delusional.

  19. #519
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    So where are all those highly successful hardcore raiding games again? Where is all the competition gleefully profiting from Blizzard's foolish mistake? Pretty sure RIFT and those other games still don't have an LFR, why haven't any of them gone up a few million subscribers in the last couple of years?
    Seeing that raiding in this game has always been a minority participation activity, I'm not sure what your argument here is (or that you even know what it is, aside from shaking your fists angrily at the screen).
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse
    I still prefer seeing Thrall rather than blood in my urine, that doesnt make him a good character. - Verdugo

  20. #520
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Seeing that raiding in this game has always been a minority participation activity, I'm not sure what your argument here is
    The argument is: if a more hardcore (or less accessible) game has a potential for gathering millions of subs, why aren't there at least one MMO like that on the market. Except EvE that is, which is crawling in its niche for years now.

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