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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel Tyrael View Post
    If something takes more time, it is by definition, harder.

    Also, I take it you never actually tried 4 horsemen back in Vanilla, or KT, or M'uru, etc etc.
    Ummm not at all lol

    By definition if something takes more time its more time consuming and that is all lol

    time consuming does not mean hard at all.

    The rep grind for exalted timermaw reputation for the rep rewards was not hard ... its was mindlessly easy but stupidly boring and took absolutely ages ie took a lot of time, the winterspring sabre mount the same.

    Your naming the few exceptions not the general rule. And even those things that were hard involved daft amounts of grinding to do the prep for them.
    Science has made us gods even before we are worthy of being men: Jean Rostand. Yeah, Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair colour!.
    Classic: "The tank is the driver, the healer is the fuel, and the DPS are the kids sitting in the back seat screaming and asking if they're there yet."
    Irony >> "do they even realize that having a state religion IS THE REASON WE LEFT BRITTEN? god these people are idiots"

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Of course they are not happy, they got 5.0 with a bajillion dailies after Cata 4.3 and yeah, that caused a massive exodus. But if you think the solution is to return to TBC, you're delusional.
    It's not about one patch. Go look at the sub graph, there's a very clear -2M/year trend starting in late 2010. Sure you get peaks with xpac releases etc., but the underlying trend is very clear.

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    I have no idea why you keep talking about hardcore raiding. I was never a hardcore raider, just a progression raider for 2-3 nights (and a casual in vanilla). The way the game is today does not appeal to me either as a casual nor a progression raider. Just out of curiosity, who do you think the 2 million people leaving the game every year are? Hardcore? No, they're players from all background, all of them finding the state of the game not worth their money or time. Casuals are not happy with the state of the game, bads seem to be though.
    Every single market-leading MMORPG since the dawn of the genre has begun to decline in subscribers around the six or seven year mark. Every. Single. One. American ones, Asian ones, all of them. Every single time it happens, some slobbering dipshit thinks he can blame it on his pet idiot design issue.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    You said, and I quote: If you want to work for rewards get a job. WoW is a game.
    My point was that gear is not a reward. It's just part of the game. It goes without saying that if you want to experience parts of the game you have to actually play the game, but you're going further than that. You're saying that players need to engage in repetitive in-game tasks for a certain amount of time to experience the "privilege" of accessing parts of it. At that point you're not playing any more. You're working. The sooner you quit viewing gear as a reward for your "hard work" the sooner the rage will subside.

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Blizzard does offer more diverse content now than ever before. Lots of it for very occasional players
    Here are your examples of content that appeals to occasional players and why they don't actually appeal to occasional players:

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Well, that's the thing. Raiding itself is far far more accessible now than ever before. Even if a person decides to not consider LFR to be 'tru raiding', the mode still prepares people far better for a given boss fight than anything prior in the game, if they should decide that they enjoy it.
    Raiding doesn't appeal to casual players. LFR wasn't a concession to casuals. It was Blizzard justifying their decision to focus on hardcores by claiming that the content is now for casuals too. The fact that it prepares casuals for real raiders is a boon for real raiders, but not for casuals. If casuals wanted to raid they could have done so prior to LFR. The reason LFR is so popular is that there's nothing else to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Beyond that, there's pet battles.
    That's solo content, and my I own just about every Pokemon game there is because daughter was a huge Pokemon fan (and probably still is). That's not worth $15 a month to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    More pvp modes and more maps.
    WoW is not a PvP game. It's seldom properly balanced. If I want to PvP I'll play an RTS or a FPS. League of Legends is free to play as well. I'm sure that WoW PvP appeals to some, but it certainly doesn't appeal to most casuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    There's challenge modes.
    I tried. Getting a team together for challenge modes was even harder than trying to get a raid going. I might add that this feature was not targeted at casual players either. It was intended to be a competitive activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    There's world bosses.
    That's fun once or twice. I'm not going to remain subscribed just so I can faceroll world bosses once a week.

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    An expanded DMF.
    DMF is one week a month and amounts to just another set of dailies. It's also a solo activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Farming.
    Solo activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    The Brawlers Guild.
    Solo activity with DPS checks that give huge advantages to players in raid gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    On and on.
    By which I assume you mean dailies. Solo activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    This is the approach they've taken in terms of trying for more variety, for a wider audience. Folks can say 'I don't like it', and that's fine, but it's another thing to simply pretend that the effort towards more casual content doesn't exist.
    The effort exists but it has been minimal. Challenge Modes are just speed runs on existing content that was tuned to be harder than its default faceroll difficulty. The other stuff you mentioned is aimed at two other groups of players: PvPers and solo players. That's not a very diverse crowd. At least in Cataclsym you could get casual guild members fired up about a bear run. Now what are you going to do? Kill a world boss with the first 35 strangers who consent to join your group? Faceroll a 466 ilevel dungeon for the 100th time in your 500+ LFR gear?

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    And while raiders have always been a minority, raiding has always been THE culmination of PvE gameplay here. This is not some new occurrence.
    For you, maybe. I knew plenty of people in WotLK who were perfectly happy with Pit of Saron, Halls of Reflection, and Forge of Souls as the culmination of their experience. Just because you always view raiding as the culmination of your PvE gameplay doesn't mean everyone else did. I'm sure you weren't alone in that view, but you were far from the majority.

  5. #525
    "Hey look guys, a subscription fantasy MMORPG has mysteriously begun losing subscribers about six or seven years after release! This is new and exciting and must be because of some design decision I will now comment upon!"

    You can fucking tell which "hardcores" never played an MMO before WoW.

  6. #526
    Please guys lets use words like hardcore or casuals in the right way. Í read here from alot of people that theyre playing wow kinda hardcore. The only people playing hardcore wow are top 5-10 Guilds. They play in progress 12-15 hrs a day for sometimes weeks. Guilds playing 5 hrs 5 time a weeks still seems hardcore for casuals but compared to other hardcore games thats nothing.
    And the word Casual says nothing about the quality of players just about their time effort. And dont get fooled, noone at blizzard listens to either casuals nor nolifers, they just look at statistics and want to keep as much players as possible to earn more. Every game change is an attempt to get new players and keep old subs.

  7. #527
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    It's not about one patch. Go look at the sub graph, there's a very clear -2M/year trend starting in late 2010. Sure you get peaks with xpac releases etc., but the underlying trend is very clear.
    No it's not about one patch, it's about a series of blunders. Just prior to Cata, WOW was at maximum. Then we have idiotic Cata (harder 5-mans, not so accessible raiding, esp. 10 man). Then 4.3 comes out and LFR as well, the fall slows down. Then we have a year of DS (because so much effort was put into redoing the old world) and then we have MOP.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  8. #528
    Casuals didn't ruin WoW, Blizzard did by making everything accessable to anyone who bothered to press "join queue" with the raid finder.

  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    Don't you think that if you actually could do that, then people wouldn't be here complaining? In theory, sure, you can do anything. The problem is that the practice is very different from theory. On my realm we had dozen solid 25-man end-game guilds on both factions from TBC to Cata. Now there are none. Zero. I'd like to do 25 man progression raiding, but I cannot.

    The root of the problem here is that they try to use the same content for everyone. Create different sets of content for different groups and bulk of the problems disappear. Sure there will be some kids whining that someone else has some toys they don't, but that's unavoidable in a game full of kids.

    Let's see:

    Bliz introduces the ability for entire guilds to transfer off servers and next thing you know a majority of the raiding guilds on my server transfer off.
    Bliz has a half off sale one weekend and the next thing you know your server is pretty much dead.

    Funny part about all of this? Just about every person I know that left my server for the mega servers still aren't raiding.


    Did LFR cause either one of these issues? No.

    Know what the biggest gripe I hear from my friends that have transferred to mega servers is? People expecting everyone to already have a full clear of normal in order to run normal mode.

    LFR isn't the problem, the problem that has existed since BC: you must outgear the content in order to run the content.

    Not everyone looking for people for a group is like this but there's enough that are. And then people bitch because "OMG, people don't have to meet stupidly high requirements anymore to run the current tier."

    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Let's go back an expac or two:

    BC: in all heroics you had to use CC etc. Heroics were "hard".

    LK: Did you know that hunters finally got a flying frost trap back then? Do you know how often I used it in any heroic dungeon? Never. Heroics were faceroll from the beginning. This is also when WoW hit it's peak.

    Cata: because people bitched because of faceroll heroics, Bliz decided to start requiring CC again ON TOP OF changing the healing model. What made things difficult here: 1) you have part of a player base that has never had to use CC before because they had started in Wrath and 2) a lot of healers did not like the healing model. To top that off, 10/25m raids shared a lockout and gear. People started leaving in early Cata. Entire raiding guilds were breaking up due to the difficulty of tier 11. To help with the hemorrhaging, Bliz implemented LFR.

    MoP: the heroics are more faceroll than any of the Wrath ones were, but then you hit a brick wall stepping into MV.

    But no, let's keep blaming the casuals. The nostalgic "BC was better raiders" had no part in any of the reasons why people left.
    Last edited by taheen74; 2013-09-06 at 09:04 PM.
    "When you've got to get down, but can't find the elevator, you have to do it any way you can. Even if it's with a shovel."- Dark Tower II: Drawing of the Three, Stephen King
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  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    For you, maybe. I knew plenty of people in WotLK who were perfectly happy with Pit of Saron, Halls of Reflection, and Forge of Souls as the culmination of their experience. Just because you always view raiding as the culmination of your PvE gameplay doesn't mean everyone else did. I'm sure you weren't alone in that view, but you were far from the majority.
    The game itself wraps up nearly every major story arc through the raid experience for as long as there's been expansions. I don't need my anecdotal experiences to prove this, that's how the game is, and has been, designed for anyone interested in the PvE side of things.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    No it's not about one patch, it's about a series of blunders. Just prior to Cata, WOW was at maximum.
    If you're looking for where the blunders started, you need to look at where the subscriber trend changed significantly. That would be the very beginning of WotLK. Subs grew quickly and steadily all through vanilla and TBC. In WotLK they peaked just after release and just before Cata, but those peaks were not significantly above TBC end numbers, and basically the sub count remained at the TBC end levels throughout. And Cata was not some return to TBC style. It still had LFD, it still had easymode and 10 man raids, it still had badge gear. It wasn't fundamentally different, a slightly more tightly tuned but then again you couldn't have any lower tuning than the end of WotLK where you literally just ran through stuff non-stop spamming your aoe.

  12. #532
    I don't know but everytime blizzard change even a small thing to make it less time consuming or more "fun" i feel wow is moving away from the mmo genre, is really more fun now tanking than how it was in bc for example? Is the change to stats and talents really needed? For me no it isn't more fun it's just more easy to understand without a bit of effort.
    How about we let the parenting of kids to... their parents? No, seriously, World of Warcraft is a videogame. Gaming it's supposed to be a fun activity (if you have that fun through challenges, social interactions, etc is completely up to you). Not some kind of "School of Hard Knocks about the Real World".

  13. #533
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    I never understood the term "casual" when used in context with WoW. WoW was never meant to be the exclusive hardcore game of all times, time-consuming yes, absurdly hard no. As I see it, the percentage of truly hardcore people in WoW is really low, so if anything "casuals" as most people call them (I call them simply players), are the ones keeping the game running and alive. Exclusive content =/= good game design. It is good game design for a select few and a very bad design for the majority. I myself have enjoyed immensely Ultima Online and EverQuest for example, but WoW has hit the sweet spot imo with content for everybody.

    So "casuals" may have ruined the game FOR some people, but the game is better overall no doubt.

  14. #534
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    If you're looking for where the blunders started, you need to look at where the subscriber trend changed significantly. That would be the very beginning of WotLK. Subs grew quickly and steadily all through vanilla and TBC. In WotLK they peaked just after release and just before Cata, but those peaks were not significantly above TBC end numbers, and basically the sub count remained at the TBC end levels throughout.
    Nah, that's because the MMO market saturated at that point, making TBC level churn impossible to sustain. However, they could have handled Cata way better and lengthen the plateau by a lot if they didn't make Cataclysm.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  15. #535
    I am a casual player, but Blizzard's mistake is to cater to the casual player. You do not focus and cater to casual players. You should focus and cater to your top 10% or top 20% of the playerbase. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have content for casuals, you should have plenty of content for casuals. But you should not focus your game around casuals. Casuals are gamers that have no investment in the game, they will quit if they don't like the game or if they find a better game.

    The casual gamer is not the ones laying the foundation of a community, it is usually the top 10% or top 20% of gamers that are. Builds, specs, strats, websites, fansites are usually not created by casual games (with exceptions). Casuals are the ones that consume that content.

    A perfect example is a company like Zynga, pretty much the Mecca for super casual gamers. Zynga was flourishing will millions of players. Then it literally all stopped and they almost went bankrupt. Catering to casuals means your game will be extremely volatile and not stable. If you want to make a quick buck then focus on casuals, if you want stability focus and cater to the top 10% to 20% but also give the casuals content.

    The point should be to try and convert casual players to hardcore players. What WoW is recently doing is converting hardcore players into casuals.

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Blackmore View Post
    The problem is that it doesn't matter what you say to people with Grogo's attitude. They're always have another "answer", often one that uses tortured logic. And TBH, I don't think those kind of people can be satisfied short of wow being a super hardcore game where everything required extreme dedication. You know, a game wow never was.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I can't argue with that. But I also think that the "anti social behavior" thing is exaggerated. I don't think have nearly as much of a bad time as some claim.
    I call bullshit on you and Osmeric. Stop tweaking what I have said into what you wish I meant. Then ride in on your white horse, it's embarrassing to witness.

    Anyway, I do not anything to be hardcore, the game has taken a turn to cater to casuals in just about every aspect of the game except Heroic Raids, that means content changed and not in a good way. It is really a concept, I understand that I am not the meter by which all content should be judged, I do have the opinion that the game took a nose dive, it has become a breeding for the casual player.

    It coincides exactly with the game turning to shit. Coincidence, maybe. My opinion, which is such tortured logic I guess, is that casuals ruined the fucking game. They made it generally worse and we have a company that will sacrifice their left nut for an extra buck. Fuck gameplay, lets go after the farmville crowd, so then that follows with "we have to change some shit" which they did.

    Enjoy the game though. The gameplay must be stellar for you, I just didn't buy into that whole thing.

  17. #537
    You know what's funny? When WoW first came out, if you said you were a "hardcore WoW player" people would just laugh at you. WoW? Hardcore? LOL.

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharuko View Post
    I am a casual player, but Blizzard's mistake is to cater to the casual player. You do not focus and cater to casual players. You should focus and cater to your top 10% or top 20% of the playerbase. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have content for casuals, you should have plenty of content for casuals. But you should not focus your game around casuals. Casuals are gamers that have no investment in the game, they will quit if they don't like the game or if they find a better game.

    The casual gamer is not the ones laying the foundation of a community, it is usually the top 10% or top 20% of gamers that are. Builds, specs, strats, websites, fansites are usually not created by casual games (with exceptions). Casuals are the ones that consume that content.

    A perfect example is a company like Zynga, pretty much the Mecca for super casual gamers. Zynga was flourishing will millions of players. Then it literally all stopped and they almost went bankrupt. Catering to casuals means your game will be extremely volatile and not stable. If you want to make a quick buck then focus on casuals, if you want stability focus and cater to the top 10% to 20% but also give the casuals content.

    The point should be to try and convert casual players to hardcore players. What WoW is recently doing is converting hardcore players into casuals.
    This was a great post.

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Nah, that's because the MMO market saturated at that point, making TBC level churn impossible to sustain.
    You left you the bit where you provide any kind of facts to figures to back up your opinion.

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    You left you the bit where you provide any kind of facts to figures to back up your opinion.
    You have yet to provide any facts that back up your opinion either. You've established a correlation, but that's not the same thing. His speculation is every bit as valid as yours.

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