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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    So, players did not find it fun to spend half an hour in a queue only to find that no matter how well they played they could not complete the dungeon if just one person did not know what to do and those that had not run the instance before bore the brunt of other players' frustration when they messed up.
    That's why LFD is such a big mistake (or at least using it for every dungeon). You can't expect an LFD group to be able to tackle anything but trivial content successfully. Which means all 5 man content must be trivial junk. WoW lost a lot of depth due to that. Back in vanilla I ran 5-mans exclusively and had a great time (I was an actual "casual"), but that's not going to happen with LFD.

    Quite frankly it was a bad design in TBC and inexcusable in Cata after the popularity and accessibility of heroics in Wrath.
    There was nothing wrong with it in TBC. Heroics were the top tier casual content (along with Kara/ZA if you wanted to raid), it was not supposed to be something you can mindlessly zerg through with 5 randoms. And Cata heroics had nothing on TBC. The class abilities have grown incredibly since then. In Cata every class had strong AoE (dps, heal, threat) and a bunch of survivability abilities. In TBC only paladins had AoE tanking etc.

  2. #602
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    There was nothing wrong with it in TBC. Heroics were the top tier casual content (along with Kara/ZA if you wanted to raid),
    You're 100% wrong and there's 100% proof for that.

    When TBC came out originally the item levels for heroics and Karazhan were flipped around. Kara actually dropped tier lower loot than heroic five-mans which made the fives incredibly hard because there was no viable way to gear up for 'em.

    TBC was full of "fun" tuning fuck-ups like that all around.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    That's why LFD is such a big mistake (or at least using it for every dungeon). You can't expect an LFD group to be able to tackle anything but trivial content successfully. Which means all 5 man content must be trivial junk. WoW lost a lot of depth due to that. Back in vanilla I ran 5-mans exclusively and had a great time (I was an actual "casual"), but that's not going to happen with LFD.
    So without LFD and taking even longer to fill the group people would somehow enjoy being at the mercy of one player making a mistake? Halls of Reflection was not trivial content yet for the most part it was successful in Wrath because one player making a mistake would not wipe the group and a skilled/geared group were able to pick up the slack if this happened whereas in Cata it did not matter how skilled the rest of the group was.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    There was nothing wrong with it in TBC. Heroics were the top tier casual content (along with Kara/ZA if you wanted to raid), it was not supposed to be something you can mindlessly zerg through with 5 randoms. And Cata heroics had nothing on TBC. The class abilities have grown incredibly since then. In Cata every class had strong AoE (dps, heal, threat) and a bunch of survivability abilities. In TBC only paladins had AoE tanking etc.
    There was plenty wrong with TBC heroics ranging from attunements to classes being excluded for lack of CC abilities. Without a guild behind you it was unlikely that you'd ever get to see a heroic in TBC. I don't know what Cata you were playing but every class had their AOE abilities severely nerfed from Wrath,

  4. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by NewportsDentarg View Post
    Time-Consuming is not by definition harder. One of the most ridiculous statements I have seen in awhile. I
    He's right, however. Time investment is a factor in difficulty, despite what you may think to the contrary.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  5. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    He's right, however. Time investment is a factor in difficulty, despite what you may think to the contrary.
    Let's put this really simple so that nobody should fail to understand it:

    If your task is to wait in queue being free to do anything you like while doing it and you know exactly how long it will take, you're essentially claiming that case b is inherently more difficult of the following two.

    a) waiting for 100 minutes
    b) waiting for 101 minutes

    Now please explain to me and the rest of the forum what is the extra difficulty in case b and where does it come from?
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  6. #606
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    He's right, however. Time investment is a factor in difficulty, despite what you may think to the contrary.
    It's true. I find myself challenged to continue to subscribe to the game while I wait in que for an hour for lfr or grind more mindless dailies. It's really difficult alright. Not sure how I managed for so long. I'm some pro let me tell you.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #607
    No. The game is fine

  8. #608
    I think gating is really one of the big problems with this game. You have to put in so much time to be at an even gear level with everyone else, PvP or PvE. "Hardcore" players don't want to waste their time doing something so simple and well within their skill level, while casuals don't want to waste what precious little time they have to play grinding stuff to get the gear that they won't have much time to use before it becomes outdated.

    There really has to be an easier way for all players, casual or hardcore, to access adequate challenges for their skill levels and have those challenges give meaningful rewards.

  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by magik8ball View Post
    There really has to be an easier way for all players, casual or hardcore, to access adequate challenges for their skill levels and have those challenges give meaningful rewards.
    Skill isn't stagnant. It's ideal for a game to make you want to improve on it. Not only do you feel accomplished in something you feel like that skill will help you in the future, for the next set of challenges. You'll probably feel less inclined to part from something you are good at or that you put effort in.

    Blizzard needs to treat it's playerbase as one. Quick learner, slow learner, it's irrelavent. You begin with parts of the game that are easy and ramp up to harder challenges, all of which should feel mandatory.

    And to make players willing to go through it, award those challenges accordingly.
    "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills." - Mugatu

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    Skill isn't stagnant. It's ideal for a game to make you want to improve on it. Not only do you feel accomplished in something you feel like that skill will help you in the future, for the next set of challenges. You'll probably feel less inclined to part from something you are good at or that you put effort in.

    Blizzard needs to treat it's playerbase as one. Quick learner, slow learner, it's irrelavent. You begin with parts of the game that are easy and ramp up to harder challenges, all of which should feel mandatory.

    And to make players willing to go through it, award those challenges accordingly.
    Blizzard can't make players do anything. They can only provide players with things they want to do.

    You seem to forgot we are the ones paying them.

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It's true. I find myself challenged to continue to subscribe to the game while I wait in que for an hour for lfr or grind more mindless dailies. It's really difficult alright. Not sure how I managed for so long. I'm some pro let me tell you.
    Why are you bothering with LFR, don't you have normal ToT down?
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  12. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Why are you bothering with LFR, don't you have normal ToT down?
    At one point i had to catch up in this game. Never mind playing an alt. It's hard to escape LFR believe me I tried. It's so god damn pervasive.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-08 at 06:13 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #613
    Casuals have not ruined this game once, I have been playing it the same way I have for years.

  14. #614
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    So without LFD and taking even longer to fill the group people would somehow enjoy being at the mercy of one player making a mistake?
    It's a multiplayer game, you're supposed to be a team where everyone's actions affect everyone else. If you don't want to be at the mercy of one player making a mistake, you should not be playing an MMORPG, your should be playing an single player RPG. That's one of the things that LFD removed from WoW and it pretty much killed any depth from 5-mans by turning it essentially into a solo experience. They might as well not even bother with grouping real players and just give you NPC team mates who don't even matter.

    There was plenty wrong with TBC heroics ranging from attunements to classes being excluded for lack of CC abilities.
    The original attunements were harsh, I'll give you that. However, not every class and spec needs to be able to do everything. As long as the lack of CC is compensated by some other skill, there's no problem. And yes, you wanted to have CC in your group, but not every member needed to have it. It's another aspect where TBC 5-mans had actual depth that was later lost; you had to actually think about your group composition, not just get any randoms and zerg through.

    Without a guild behind you it was unlikely that you'd ever get to see a heroic in TBC.
    Utter and total nonsense. I did a ton of TBC heroics before I joined a guild. You didn't need a guild, you just needed to not be bad and build your own friends list.

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    It's a multiplayer game, you're supposed to be a team where everyone's actions affect everyone else. If you don't want to be at the mercy of one player making a mistake, you should not be playing an MMORPG, your should be playing an single player RPG. That's one of the things that LFD removed from WoW and it pretty much killed any depth from 5-mans by turning it essentially into a solo experience. They might as well not even bother with grouping real players and just give you NPC team mates who don't even matter.
    You are missing the point and quite frankly your reply has little to do with my post. When a group of four players can play to the best of their ability and still wipe because one player makes a mistake this is bad design having to manually form a group, which from experience could take just as long as running the actual instance, does not change this.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    The original attunements were harsh, I'll give you that. However, not every class and spec needs to be able to do everything. As long as the lack of CC is compensated by some other skill, there's no problem. And yes, you wanted to have CC in your group, but not every member needed to have it. It's another aspect where TBC 5-mans had actual depth that was later lost; you had to actually think about your group composition, not just get any randoms and zerg through.
    If you were a DPS and did not have CC in TBC you did not run heroics unless you were with a bunch of friends/guild mates. Thinking about group composition usually came down to take the hunter, mage or rogue before other classes I would hardly call that depth.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    Utter and total nonsense. I did a ton of TBC heroics before I joined a guild. You didn't need a guild, you just needed to not be bad and build your own friends list.
    It would appear that your experiences differ from mine and many others'. If people were able to run heroics as easy as you were then there would not have been as many players using battlegrounds to gear up in TBC.

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    Blizzard can't make players do anything. They can only provide players with things they want to do.

    You seem to forgot we are the ones paying them.
    Fine. Semantics aside I think it's very doable to provide such enticement to players they'll do things they wouldn't do otherwise.

    And this attitude that's so pervasive in the community of "we hold the stacks" needs to go. This is precicely why entitlement became such a buzzword.
    "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills." - Mugatu

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    So, you think someone asking Blizzard to do something that would be contrary to their business interests, and someone asking Blizzard to do otherwise, are equivalent?

    Casuals are in the enviable position that their interests, and Blizzards, are in closer alignment than are the interests of the entitled elitists. So the casuals don't have to make a self-serving argument; they can get the same effect with a principled one.
    Yet every time Blizzard designs the game around casuals, they lose subscribers, player activity goes down, ect. How is that in their best interest? A subscriber fee based game makes money by keeping subscribers.

    The exact opposite of your post is true. The overwhelming market trend within PC games is away from casual gaming. Compare the success of LoL to the steady decline of WoW or the semi-flop of SWTOR when players reached the very easy end game. Even Eve Online is seeing minor growth despite being very old and having the least intuitive UI ever. The same trend is even repeating itself on the console market, with Nintendo's accessible,casual Wii getting spanked by the other consoles.

    The "casual players" have an overwhelming sense of entitlement, not just to game rewards from content they are not playing, but also to control of the development direction of the game. If you don't believe that, go read the official WoW forums. It's filled with LFR players explaining why they cannot or should not be asked to anything before they get rewards from the most recent raid content. As I'm typing this I'm reading a thread where a casual player said that work in real life is their job and they don't want to have to demonstrate competency to defeat the most current raid content. And lots of other casuals are chiming in saying they agree...

    Blizzard has been feeding that attitude for years with features like LFG and LFR and by maligning the more hardcore end of the player spectrum. But it's an approach to game design that can only lead to failure and has been failing since Tier 13.
    Last edited by Alphadruid; 2013-09-08 at 04:39 PM.

  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by Alphadruid View Post
    Yet every time Blizzard designs the game around casuals, they lose subscribers, player activity goes down, ect. How is that in their best interest?

    The overwhelming market trend within PC games is away from casual gaming. Compare the success of LoL to the steady decline of very casual WoW.
    How can u compare LoL to WoW or even say LoL strays away from casual play ?

    It's a MOBA , it has 4 buttons to look for ( 6 if you include 2 high cd spells ) and it's as casual as it gets ( games vs bots , tutorial games, low ELO nubfests )
    Only ''Hard'' thing about LoL are the events where pro teams battle it out, even soloQ ranked is just a bunch of Guido's dreaming to become pro.

    Not to mention LoL will give you cancer after playing for 5 hours cause in that time your mum will have gotten flamed 680 times, someone told u to go die 560 times and you will have seen the word idiot or noob 890 times.

  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by Alphadruid View Post
    Yet every time Blizzard designs the game around casuals, they lose subscribers, player activity goes down, ect. How is that in their best interest?

    The overwhelming market trend within PC games is away from casual gaming. Compare the success of LoL to the steady decline of very casual WoW.
    Blizzard cater towards the casual because they are leaving the game, they are trying to stop this and slow down the rate they are leaving. If every single player that has killed the first boss in TOT left tomorrow it would still be less than the losses in each of the last two quarters.

  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by Alphadruid View Post
    Yet every time Blizzard designs the game around casuals, they lose subscribers, player activity goes down, ect. How is that in their best interest?
    Clearly, they have failed to find a way to attract the casuals. Apparently Wrath wasn't quite enough, but when they swerved back toward a more hardcore focus in Cataclysm, the results were worse. And now the changes in MoP aren't good enough either. Casuals don't like grind, and they don't like being put into a raid ghetto. An MMO with multiple difficulty levels is inherently hostile to the average player, since it is constantly sending them the message "you suck!"

    This doesn't alter their NEED to cater to casuals. That's where the vast bulk of their customers have been; that's where the money is; that's who they have to retain to sustain the game at anywhere near even the current level of cash flow. They have to do better at it. So far, they still focus on the tiny hardcore minority in the overall design of the game. They're trying to have their cake and eat it too, and it isn't working.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

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