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  1. #761
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    Correct. Blizzard should make content specifically for them instead of trying to feed them watered down progression raiding content. They should also make content for progression raiders, and pvp players and solo players etc.
    I agree but as noted it is apparently not economically feasible for them to do all that and sustain the "quality" of raids you've seen in mists. You should be happy though. Raiding won out. Big time.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #762
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The bold should be stressed. They've tried to make it as casual friendly as possible but you can't put lip stick on that pig. LFR is the ultimate catering to raiders and hardcores. It keeps their content sustainable.
    Our content was sustainable long before LFR existed, in fact, based off blizzard having billions on reserve I'd say it's more than sustainable. Beyond that though, LFR is definitely not catering to real raiders, that's why most LFR guys don't get into good raid groups. We'd rather have blizz give them real content instead of a half assed version of what is normally a good raid. Believe me, nobody is saying casuals shouldn't have content, they should totally have cool stuff to do, but blizzard is going about it a really poor way, just so they can save a bit of money.

  3. #763
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    It's pretty funny to see everybody come around to the wheres the new dungeon train. Some of us have been screaming and hollering about this for months and instead have been told HEY MAN LOOK AT ALL THE DIVERSITY IN MISTS which is really just a crock of shit. Raid raid raid raid raid raid raid is all the games about now. Everything else is meaningless pity content with no depth and more importantly no character progression.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #764
    wow is ded gam, all gam will die, it just takes time, casuals are a non-factor

  5. #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Our content was sustainable long before LFR existed, in fact, based off blizzard having billions on reserve I'd say it's more than sustainable. Beyond that though, LFR is definitely not catering to real raiders, that's why most LFR guys don't get into good raid groups. We'd rather have blizz give them real content instead of a half assed version of what is normally a good raid. Believe me, nobody is saying casuals shouldn't have content, they should totally have cool stuff to do, but blizzard is going about it a really poor way, just so they can save a bit of money.
    The circumstances that existed which allowed for something like SWP are no longer true. The first circumstances is that the player base is not growing anymore. The second circumstance is that far more casual and just players in general are hitting lvl 90 and must be entertained at lvl 90. To be entertained at lvl 90 the developers would either have to get them involved into the content they create (raids which take up most of their time) or forsake that content in favor of other content to entertain their audience. LFR is a win for raiders wether or not you wish to accept this is irellevant.

    I agree they are going about it in a poor way. If the economic realities forced them to choose between making raids but shoving everybody into raids or severely curtailing the production and quality and depth of raids then the later was the obvious choice. The former is a choice in favor of raiders and hardcores. Congratulations. You (and raids) won. Dungeons lost.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-09 at 07:33 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #766
    content for casuals that dont want to get with 10 people or more....heroic scenarios and heroic dungeons....those that are anti social all the way around.....pandaria rares and pet battles....learn your place. People that want a challenge and have the time to commit...raids....easy as that

    People need to quit calling for the end of raids just because they dont have the time and or skill to do them properly....If you remove raids what is progression? why would you need better gear? who the hell would stick around after max level...probably a whole lot less than most of the whiners would like to believe

  7. #767
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    casualpalooza
    If thats not the next xpac name I will be very disappointed.
    OT: I think WoW is in a pretty good spot right now. You got LFR for people like me who just want to see the content and not be on a schedule. Flex for smaller guilds or what have you so people can do a raid with whoever is on at the time. Normal for normal players and heroic for people looking for a challenge. I think the loot rewarded for each is fair and not getting titles/achieves for LFR is fine by me.
    I think at least some of the "casuals ruined WoW!" is just people who think the game was much better when it took 5 hours just to get ready for a raid. But I digress.
    It has been scientifically confirmed that if Eiffel was green; he would in fact die.

  8. #768
    Not sure how raids are suddenly considered some enormous player exodus factor, or 'casual' factor when they've always been here, they've historically been less accessible, and they've historically been used as the wrap-up of every major story arc the game has put forth.

    To say that they're only important "now" really means that you haven't been paying attention. The only casual activity that has been poorly served in this expansion is 5 man content. Scenarios aren't a good substitution at all, if that was the intent.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  9. #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Not sure how raids are suddenly considered some enormous player exodus factor, or 'casual' factor when they've always been here, they've historically been less accessible, and they've historically been used as the wrap-up of every major story arc the game has put forth.

    To say that they're only important "now" really means that you haven't been paying attention. The only casual activity that has been poorly served in this expansion is 5 man content. Scenarios aren't a good substitution at all, if that was the intent.
    Dungeons have been poorly served in the interest of making raids. Better "quality" raids I might add which is really just huge bloated raid tiers with tonnes of trash and overly complex bosses. Who hasn't been paying attention now?

    Would you be happier if they went back to 6 boss raids and a couple of dungeons (1 or 2) for every big patch? or better yet more DS tiers?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #770
    dungeons have NEVER been a great thing EVER. They have squarely been used for gearing purposes for what? OH YES...RAIDS!!! lol

  11. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXzCoDProxXz View Post
    No the elitists ruined WoW with their demands..
    Nothing was hard just time-consuming. Lots of free time=you can have and IQ of 10 and still clear any content you want. BLizz like any other business saw the time constraint so they had to lower the difficulty along with the length of raids/took prebuffing out of the picture(like resistance buffing yourself, fire prot potions so forth) and introduced easier mechanics
    1. Realm communities got ripped to shreds with the introduction of LFD, pvp queuing and later on LFR. You can play this game with all the chat windows disabled, sure blizzard introduced them but only because the "casual" playerbase said they wanted to see all the content.
    2. The lack of realm communities has lead to a epidemic of "keyboard heroes" who act like the biggest fucking morons on the internet (wow in this case) because what others think about them doesn't matter at all. Back in the days before LFD you had Tanks, Healers and DPSers you LIKED on your friendslist and if you EVER wanted to get somewhere you had to actually behave so people would invite you back.
    3. Now that everything is so easy you end up playing what? 3-4 hours a week and you can see EVERYTHING in this game, you're wondering why the realms have so low population and the subscribers are dropping? People get bored of doing the same thing over and over so they subscribe when new expansions come out, new major patches and then quit again when they've done everything in a month or two.


    Casuals demanded easier thing, blizzard let them have it, sub numbers drop, wow is now half of what it was before LFR was introduced. You CAN'T ignore those facts...
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  12. #772
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Who hasn't been paying attention now?
    Fun fact: There were more raid bosses in Wrath than there are in this expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Would you be happier if they went back to 6 boss raids and a couple of dungeons (1 or 2) for every big patch? or better yet more DS tiers?
    My preference is for shorter raids, or a few different raids per tier, as well as more 5 man content, so yes I would. But that has nothing to do with my stance on folks thinking that raids were historically less 'important' than they are now.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  13. #773
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Fun fact: There were more raid bosses in Wrath than there are in this expansion.



    My preference is for shorter raids, or a few different raids per tier, as well as more 5 man content, so yes I would. But that has nothing to do with my stance on folks thinking that raids were historically less 'important' than they are now.
    Wrath was around for longer. Extrapolate based on the frequency of boss updates in mists and then corellate that with the length of wrath and you get?

    My preference to but yes raids were less important for many more players then they are now where they are singularly important for almost everybody. While it may shock and surprise you end game content for players throughout most of wrath and cata was just running dungeons and not touching raids at all or very sparsely maybe a pug on occcasion.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #774
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    I will agree blizz is nudging people who didn't raid before into doing so, even if there were good reasons why they didn't want to in the first place. And there was multi-player content for casuals before, like Kara, if you raided back then, how many people did you know that never touched that place that hit max level and enjoyed pve? I don't know any myself.
    I never went into Kara at 70. I was busy screwing around with Scryer and Sha'tari Skyguard rep. I had no desire to see Kara and only got dragged in with friends after WotLK had come out. The chess game and the play were kind of cool, but aside from that I was underwhelmed. Multi-player doesn't have to mean a minimum of 10. I'll take a well-tuned 5-man over a 10-man zergfest any day of the week. The most enjoyable raid encounters usually involve the 10-man group splitting into two 5-man groups at crucial phases of the fight. Why is there this notion that content requires a minimum of 10 people to be worth running?

    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    dungeons have NEVER been a great thing EVER. They have squarely been used for gearing purposes for what? OH YES...RAIDS!!! lol
    That's not true. In WotLK you had 16 dungeons to pick from, and they were all still available at the end. If you wanted you could limit yourself, but that was an option and not something you were forced into. In Cataclysm you had to pick a tier of dungeons to queue into, and the rewards varied significantly from dungeon tier to dungeon tier. Ironically despite being the easiest dungeons HoT heroics gave the best rewards, so everyone queued for those. So we went from a system where at the end of the game you had a 1/16 chance of seeing a given dungeon each time you queued to a system where you had a 1/3 chance of seeing a given dungeon each time you queued. You don't see the difference there? Now it doesn't even matter because there are only a handful of heroic dungeons total and their rewards aren't even worth the time it takes you to faceroll them.

  15. #775
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Fun fact: There were more raid bosses in Wrath than there are in this expansion.
    Maybe, but Naxxramas was recycled.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  16. #776
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Wrath was around for longer. Extrapolate based on the frequency of boss updates in mists and then corellate that with the length of wrath and you get?

    My preference to but yes raids were less important for many more players then they are now where they are singularly important for almost everybody. While it may shock and surprise you end game content for players throughout most of wrath and cata was just running dungeons and not touching raids at all or very sparsely maybe a pug on occcasion.
    Players can still do that. Go run all the dungeons you want! They even have scenarios which offer harder gameplay!! and requires even less people!!

  17. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    Players can still do that. Go run all the dungeons you want! They even have scenarios which offer harder gameplay!! and requires even less people!!
    When was the last time you tried healing a dungeon or scenario? You can basically just autofollow and then for maybe 10 seconds of each boss fight you'll have to throw out a heal or two. Aside from that you're pretty much worthless.

  18. #778
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    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    Players can still do that. Go run all the dungeons you want! They even have scenarios which offer harder gameplay!! and requires even less people!!
    And you get less reward for doing that then you did in previous expansions and you also don't get any more new dungeons this expansion at all. Actually with the removal of the valor vendor past a certain ilvl you get virtually no reward.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    When was the last time you tried healing a dungeon or scenario? You can basically just autofollow and then for maybe 10 seconds of each boss fight you'll have to throw out a heal or two. Aside from that you're pretty much worthless.
    Thats how every dungeon in the game has been....its only been hard maybe the first week of gearing and thats pushing it...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    And you get less reward for doing that then you did in previous expansions and you also don't get any more new dungeons this expansion at all. Actually with the removal of the valor vendor past a certain ilvl you get virtually no reward.
    less rewards? how do you figure? what great rewards have dungeons ever offered that you are trying to say? No new dungeons? There have been scenarios which are pretty equivalent to dungeons imo.

  20. #780
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    1. Realm communities got ripped to shreds with the introduction of LFD, pvp queuing and later on LFR. You can play this game with all the chat windows disabled, sure blizzard introduced them but only because the "casual" playerbase said they wanted to see all the content.
    2. The lack of realm communities has lead to a epidemic of "keyboard heroes" who act like the biggest fucking morons on the internet (wow in this case) because what others think about them doesn't matter at all. Back in the days before LFD you had Tanks, Healers and DPSers you LIKED on your friendslist and if you EVER wanted to get somewhere you had to actually behave so people would invite you back.
    3. Now that everything is so easy you end up playing what? 3-4 hours a week and you can see EVERYTHING in this game, you're wondering why the realms have so low population and the subscribers are dropping? People get bored of doing the same thing over and over so they subscribe when new expansions come out, new major patches and then quit again when they've done everything in a month or two.


    Casuals demanded easier thing, blizzard let them have it, sub numbers drop, wow is now half of what it was before LFR was introduced. You CAN'T ignore those facts...
    Casual players demanded nothing they left when the game no longer met their needs.

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