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  1. #1121
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Thats the problem, its the other way around. You are being the blind one here.

    WoW was getting consistently more casual friendly UNTILL Cata. Vanilla was more casual than anything else in the market, TBC was more casual than Vanilla, WotLK more casual than TBC.

    THEN Blizzard changed direction and tried to make Cata more hardcore with the difficulty up in dungeons, and then they tried making MoP more hardcore reintroducing the long grinds and getting the difficulty of raids even higher.

    It is there, when Blizzard tried to cater to tha hardcore that cried that WotLK was too casual when they broke the game.

    Cataclysm and MoP were NOT made for casuals. They are products oriented to the HARDCORE. And that's the main reason of their complete failure.
    bait and switch.. except this time the players revolted and bolted at the switch.. sure some loved it.. but were talking the majority.. and they are speaking with thier wallets and leaving.

  2. #1122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Thats the problem, its the other way around. You are being the blind one here.

    WoW was getting consistently more casual friendly UNTILL Cata. Vanilla was more casual than anything else in the market, TBC was more casual than Vanilla, WotLK more casual than TBC.

    THEN Blizzard changed direction and tried to make Cata more hardcore with the difficulty up in dungeons, and then they tried making MoP more hardcore reintroducing the long grinds and getting the difficulty of raids even higher.

    It is there, when Blizzard tried to cater to tha hardcore that cried that WotLK was too casual when they broke the game.

    Cataclysm and MoP were NOT made for casuals. They are products oriented to the HARDCORE. And that's the main reason of their complete failure.
    It jumped the shark the minute the developer took the phrase "welfare epic" seriously.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #1123
    Mechagnome Zenora's Avatar
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    Wow isnt ruined, its what YOU make of it

    If you like raiding, there is a whole span of different types to do, if you like leveling there are many types of races and classes to enjoy

    It isnt ruined, it is changed and sometimes change is needed
    Last edited by Zenora; 2013-09-11 at 04:22 PM.

  4. #1124
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    They might and often do omit things, but never actually lie.
    They did say the wsg gy change in 4.1 was to end GY camping, while it quite obviously was actually expected to make it easier than ever by removed escape options upon rezzing. If this isn't a lie, then there are some bafflingly clueless/stupid/misled/lost/confused people making decisions about this game.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, John Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Agatha Christie, Steven Erikson & Ian Esslemont, Stephen R Donaldon, and recently Jack L Chalker.

  5. #1125
    Quote Originally Posted by McTurbo View Post
    there are alot of points there that i can agree with. age is a factor. but its not as big as a factor as you would believe. simply because nothing else out there competes with what wow offers. mostly from a polished point of view. the fact is if blizzard wanted to stay on top.. they would just need to update the game. even if they scrapped the old world completely and destroyed everything in a massive endgame event then at midnight switched over to a new azeroth with updated graphics/world/modern engine.. i would be perfectly okay with that. just let us retain our characters (hell reset em to level 1 if you need to.. they do the same every expansion.. we have to gain 5-10 levels to be relevant again.. im okay with going back to level 1 for a whole new world to re-explore)

    there are plenty of ways blizzard can improve.. the question comes down to what are they willing to do to improve. you have the largest mmo playerbase (paying) stay how you are and bleed todeath or get up and change something.. even if its major. hell people may come back with a major shift to the world. i would rather see this than a slow death. (WoW 2.0)
    Yeah but even if there are no other games on the market, then people just won't play another mmo. I doubt that more than 25 % of all ex long time WoW players now play another mmo at the moment.

  6. #1126
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    They did say the wsg gy change in 4.1 was to end GY camping, while it quite obviously was actually expected to make it easier than ever by removed escape options upon rezzing. If this isn't a lie, then there are some bafflingly clueless/stupid/misled/lost/confused people making decisions about this game.
    You seem to have hard time grasping the difference between intended change and actual resulted change, and how neither of those mean somebody is lying.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  7. #1127
    You guys really need to stop beating this anti-casual drum. Casuals are not going anywhere, they are the majority of the game (its what makes you special remember?) and content has to be made for them. It just so happens that right now they make lots of raid content and then nerf it so casuals can consume it but you get lots of raid content in trade. If you remove this nerfed version of raiding then you loose lots of raid content since the casuals pay the bills and content will be diverted from raiding to them (5 mans, scenarios, most likely lots of scenarios).

    Also, one day INEVITABLY the hardcore of today will become the casual, unless you are entirely sheltered and cut off from the real world then you will become casual.

    As far as feeling special goes, you should be able to feel special about your own achievements without worrying about what the casuals have achieved. Killing Garrosh on Heroic is still the primo achievement no matter what a casual has done in LFR. "Oh my god I just killed Garrosh in LFR!" - Said no one EVER.
    An Indy Car driver doesn't care what an amateur on a dirt track is doing, an NBA player doesn't care what some kids in a basketball court are doing, an Award winning pianist doesn't care what a 4th grader is doing in a church recital and a President of a country doesn't care what a President of the senior class is doing. If you can't feel special based on your own accomplishments without the adoration of the non-hardcore population (which you never really had, it was all in your head.) then your accomplishments are hollow in that they mean nothing to you personally.

    Casuals are going no where, they are the base. Without a base you have no pinnacle. LFR is going no where, Blizzard already said so and its being baked into the next expansion just like it was for mop. Get over the hate, its doing you no good at all.
    Last edited by DeadmanWalking; 2013-09-11 at 05:01 PM.

  8. #1128
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    You seem to have hard time grasping the difference between intended change and actual resulted change, and how neither of those mean somebody is lying.
    just for the record, I do not respond to vesselblah on threads, and suggest readers look at the 4.1 gy change, look at the blue post, and draw their own conclusions about who understands what and the motives of the other party in this exchange (also look at both of our posting histories, it should prove illuminating).

    I maintain that taking away multiple (3) routes away from GY, and leaving rezzers with only one (1) route, guaranteed camping would be easier than ever. It seems almost certain blizzard understood this too. There was a long thread pre-4.1 on mmo about it.

    Or you can believe vesselblah.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, John Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Agatha Christie, Steven Erikson & Ian Esslemont, Stephen R Donaldon, and recently Jack L Chalker.

  9. #1129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    just for the record, I do not respond to vesselblah on threads, and suggest readers look at the 4.1 gy change, look at the blue post, and draw their own conclusions about who understands what and the motives of the other party in this exchange (also look at both of our posting histories, it should prove illuminating).

    I maintain that taking away multiple (3) routes away from GY, and leaving rezzers with only one (1) route, guaranteed camping would be easier than ever. It seems almost certain blizzard understood this too. There was a long thread pre-4.1 on mmo about it.

    Or you can believe vesselblah.
    I actually think vesseblah is correct but in actuality it's even worse than saying that they were lying. It was just gross incompetence on their part.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #1130
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I actually think vesseblah is correct but in actuality it's even worse than saying that they were lying. It was just gross incompetence on their part.
    "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." -- Jon Clarke's First Law
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  11. #1131
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    You guys really need to stop beating this anti-casual drum. Casuals are not going anywhere, they are the majority of the game (its what makes you special remember?) and content has to be made for them. It just so happens that right now they make lots of raid content and then nerf it so casuals can consume it but you get lots of raid content in trade. If you remove this nerfed version of raiding then you loose lots of raid content since the casuals pay the bills and content will be diverted from raiding to them (5 mans, scenarios, most likely lots of scenarios).

    Also, one day INEVITABLY the hardcore of today will become the casual, unless you are entirely sheltered and cut off from the real world then you will become casual.

    As far as feeling special goes, you should be able to feel special about your own achievements without worrying about what the casuals have achieved. Killing Garrosh on Heroic is still the primo achievement no matter what a casual has done in LFR. "Oh my god I just killed Garrosh in LFR!" - Said no one EVER.
    An Indy Car driver doesn't care what an amateur on a dirt track is doing, an NBA player doesn't care what some kids in a basketball court are doing, an Award winning pianist doesn't care what a 4th grader is doing in a church recital and a President of a country doesn't care what a President of the senior class is doing. If you can't feel special based on your own accomplishments without the adoration of the non-hardcore population (which you never really had, it was all in your head.) then your accomplishments are hollow in that they mean nothing to you personally.

    Casuals are going no where, they are the base. Without a base you have no pinnacle. LFR is going no where, Blizzard already said so and its being baked into the next expansion just like it was for mop. Get over the hate, its doing you no good at all.
    Well said deadman. This has to be the best post in the thread.

  12. #1132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." -- Jon Clarke's First Law
    HAH I had never heard that variation on ac clarke.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor

    Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 05:30 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #1133
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Death Knight View Post
    Dragon Soul was obviously not designed with LFR in mind. The production value of the newer raids went up by a huge margin with MoP, which is because of the success of Dragon Soul LFR, which was only created as a test run. Dragon Soul's lack of quality was because of Blizzard spreading its resources too thin by rebuilding Azeroth (lack of content during the entire expansion was very, very apparent from start to finish), as well as releasing 3 new Dungeons in the same patch.

    Blaming LFR for the quality of Dragon Soul is the most illogical, non-sensical, and outright ignorant thing you could say.

    The changes in the world with Cata happened a year before DS was released - DS for me personally, symbolizes the lack of creativity and laziness that has been overcoming blizz in a lot of aspects of the game lately, at the same time, LFR was released, I dont' think it's a coincidence lol. Also, 2 of those dungeons used completely re-hased content too (although end time I thought was kinda cool). Beyond that, my point is, with blizz having much more money now on deck then they have in the past, saying that all of the sudden, they lack resources to make raids is a bit silly.

  14. #1134
    1) The game is not "ruined".

    2) How do you define a casual player ? Players from top world guilds play less than the pseudo-good players from an unknow guild raiding 5 days a week during months and struggling on the same hardcore encounters.

    3) Players who tend to ruin the game are, for the majority, hardcore players (by the time they put into the game), but bad as hell, and who can't stand the fact that players with less time in the game can almost reach the same gear level.

  15. #1135
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    The changes in the world with Cata happened a year before DS was released - DS for me personally, symbolizes the lack of creativity and laziness that has been overcoming blizz in a lot of aspects of the game lately, at the same time, LFR was released, I dont' think it's a coincidence lol. Also, 2 of those dungeons used completely re-hased content too (although end time I thought was kinda cool). Beyond that, my point is, with blizz having much more money now on deck then they have in the past, saying that all of the sudden, they lack resources to make raids is a bit silly.
    Not really, they have a CFO< who has to justify every dollar spent to the shareholders.

    "Why have you spent a third of the games budget catering solely to 15 thousand of our 10 million players?" is going to be awkward to answer.
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  16. #1136
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    There's a difference between defending nerfs and asking for them. This thread was created long after the nerfs were put into place so statements here don't apply. How can anyone possibly ask for nerfs that took place two years ago? I didn't QQ for nerfs to Cata dungeons, and I don't know anyone else who did. I will be the first to admit, however, that they were tuned with way too much difficulty. This is based purely on observation. I haven't seen an exodus of players as massive as the one at the beginning of Cataclysm. As soon as players dinged 85 they were pretty much forced to raid or quit. There were various DPS checks in Grim Batol, for instance, that were darn near impossible for non-raiders to beat. That's bad design. A good dungeon should gradually wipe bad parties through attrition. It shouldn't one-shot players just because they happen to be entering the dungeon for the first time and don't realize that the firey minion heading towards them is going to blow up as soon as they try to melee it. It shouldn't insta-wipe the entire party because it's the tank's first time in the instance and he doesn't realize that he's supposed to face the boss away from everyone. That's not even "challenge." It's just punishing new players for being new. And then Blizzard wonders why new players are quitting so quickly...


    Actually they do want challenges, or the game wouldn't be suffering losses any more. If players want unchallenging snoozefests there are plenty to be had now. There's a difference between wanting content designed for consumption in small bursts by small groups of players and wanting content that you can faceroll. Unfortunately Blizzard doesn't seem to understand the distinction.


    Just speaking from what I've seen, I saw MANY posts complaining about Cata dungeons, and I'm sure even people that disagree with some of my other points will agree with this one. Personally I thought it was fun that you still could potentially wipe on stuff like the third boss in Grim Batol - if every boss simply used void zone mechanics, A LOT more would quit now, instead of those that quit because they thought it was too hard. I will agree that between having two raids at the start of Cata, one of them should've been more entry level though. I see we somewhat agree on the lack of challenges (minus in raids) being in the game - right now, even with the timeless isle, while it's cool for a few days, almost everything in there is wrapped around vanity items and just about all those rare spawns die in 10 seconds (it's a pain even getting to them I time for a tag lol). It's alright for now... but I dunno if this one is going to keep players entertained for long.

  17. #1137
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    The changes in the world with Cata happened a year before DS was released - DS for me personally, symbolizes the lack of creativity and laziness that has been overcoming blizz in a lot of aspects of the game lately, at the same time, LFR was released, I dont' think it's a coincidence lol. Also, 2 of those dungeons used completely re-hased content too (although end time I thought was kinda cool). Beyond that, my point is, with blizz having much more money now on deck then they have in the past, saying that all of the sudden, they lack resources to make raids is a bit silly.
    Time is a resource that the developers cannot purchase or purchase easily at any rate. Nor (as we are told) are employees sufficiently skilled and in sufficient numbers to do what your asking. So yes they do lack resources to make raids AND dungeons and all the other crap they made for DS. More importantly your missing the point whether they can or can't is by and large irellevant. The question is how much return do they get for investing all those resources into that content (raiding) when raiding attracts so few players. Historically very little. With lfr more. Is it a wise and effecient use of resources to build content for so many that takes so much to make?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  18. #1138
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Removing LFR would just mean less people would touch raids, not more. I don't think you understand how the playerbase WoW has operates :x Normal raiding has never been very popular, ever, at all, in WoW's history :x

    If someone doesn't feel like raiding, why push them into it?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Not really, they have a CFO< who has to justify every dollar spent to the shareholders.

    "Why have you spent a third of the games budget catering solely to 15 thousand of our 10 million players?" is going to be awkward to answer.
    Perhaps they can explain it's one of the reasons the game has been successful in the first place? It's like Mortal Kombat with fatalities back in the day, I didn't even know how to do them for the longest time, but it drew interest. Forming an army with 24 other dudes (or 39 back in the day) would sound appealing to a lot of people, not even MMO guys, also the RTS people who played the original WC games.

  19. #1139
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    If someone doesn't feel like raiding, why push them into it?
    I absolutely 100% agree. Why push them into it Blizzard? Of course we know why but thats a very cynical and jaded economic calculation on the part of the developers.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #1140
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    How blind can someone be? What does it matter that WoW was always 'casual' compared to other games? That doesn't mean it needs to go full blown casual like it has since Cata.
    And yet there is more Hardcore Content being produced in a far quicker amount of time than ever before because the nerfed down version of it is what the casuals are consuming. Its win win, Hardcores get more Raid content and casuals get to experience nerfed end game content at their leisure. If your only driving goal is to have gear so you can primp and prean in front of a mailbox then yeah, I guess you loose.

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