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  1. #1141
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    If someone doesn't feel like raiding, why push them into it?

    - - - Updated - - -


    Perhaps they can explain it's one of the reasons the game has been successful in the first place? It's like Mortal Kombat with fatalities back in the day, I didn't even know how to do them for the longest time, but it drew interest. Forming an army with 24 other dudes (or 39 back in the day) would sound appealing to a lot of people, not even MMO guys, also the RTS people who played the original WC games.
    How would they explain that? There is zero proof for it.

    Biggest sub levels were when fewest people raided. To an outsider it just looks like a huge waste of money. You might be right, but you'd need a lot of proof before you get some disinterested investor to hand over hundreds of millions.

    So, lets have that proof. Remember, the proof you show has to get a hardened investor who doesn't give a toss about wow and who can also put his money anywhere (oil, gas, gold, stocks and bonds, housing yuadda yadda) to part with their money.
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  2. #1142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    How would they explain that? There is zero proof for it.

    Biggest sub levels were when fewest people raided. To an outsider it just looks like a huge waste of money. You might be right, but you'd need a lot of proof before you get some disinterested investor to hand over hundreds of millions.

    So, lets have that proof. Remember, the proof you show has to get a hardened investor who doesn't give a toss about wow and who can also put his money anywhere (oil, gas, gold, stocks and bonds, housing yuadda yadda) to part with their money.
    It's a fairy tale. He isn't right. The dragon on the box or the lich king on the box sold more than raiding ever did. In fact you could make a pretty good argument that the ultra focus on raiding actually drove people away from the game. Like lots of people who couldn't commit to it or didn't like the scene and got fucked over because it's ultimately all the game lead to. Even if it had some mythical power to compel a handful of people to play the game, it's driven far more players away from it and cost them alot more subs than it's ever gained them.

    The problem is that some folks who raid cannot conceptualize a universe where raiding either doesn't exist or isn't the center of that universe. Since they (and in their defense the developers to) think that it really is the center of the universe and ought to be what everyone aspires to it becomes VERY hard for them to understand why people wouldn't be lured by it and VERY easy to come up with a narrative that puts raiding as the games biggest selling draw.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 05:49 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #1143
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Time is a resource that the developers cannot purchase or purchase easily at any rate. Nor (as we are told) are employees sufficiently skilled and in sufficient numbers to do what your asking. So yes they do lack resources to make raids AND dungeons and all the other crap they made for DS. More importantly your missing the point whether they can or can't is by and large irellevant. The question is how much return do they get for investing all those resources into that content (raiding) when raiding attracts so few players. Historically very little. With lfr more. Is it a wise and effecient use of resources to build content for so many that takes so much to make?

    Blizz has delivered on raids for 8 years, many of which are still quite popular (people run MC even today), blizz is taking a cheaper route that while some newer guys will enjoy, I think it's slowly causing the game to bleed subs. We will probably disagree on this until the cows come home, I get your points, but still firmly contend that between blizz doing this for as long as they have, and the sheer amount of money, they can continue to do so. And also, you say raiding attracts few people, my experience is the opposite, raids existing in wow has brought a lot of players to it (along with a combination of lore), even if those people don't always reach the raids themselves (they may only play for a month, maybe they just couldn't get into a raid group, or maybe they decided to go the pvp route). Without max level content that engages players - who would stick around for more than a few months? Sure they can keep making 5 mans, but we've seen the demands for nerfs, blizz caving in, and what shape they are in now.

  4. #1144
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Blizz has delivered on raids for 8 years, many of which are still quite popular (people run MC even today), blizz is taking a cheaper route that while some newer guys will enjoy, I think it's slowly causing the game to bleed subs. We will probably disagree on this until the cows come home, I get your points, but still firmly contend that between blizz doing this for as long as they have, and the sheer amount of money, they can continue to do so. And also, you say raiding attracts few people, my experience is the opposite, raids existing in wow has brought a lot of players to it (along with a combination of lore), even if those people don't always reach the raids themselves (they may only play for a month, maybe they just couldn't get into a raid group, or maybe they decided to go the pvp route). Without max level content that engages players - who would stick around for more than a few months? Sure they can keep making 5 mans, but we've seen the demands for nerfs, blizz caving in, and what shape they are in now.
    Yes your experience is opposite. Okay raiding is your center of the universe. Congratulations. Now we KNOW for a FACT (regardless of your view on this matter or your perception or your circle or whatever) that historically raiding has had VERY LOW participation. So you've built a myth on the one hand and we've got the FACT on the other hand. Which should we believe? That content people NEVER PARTICIPATED IN somehow still managed to entertain them and keep them subscribed. Fairy tales.

    Here's what you don't get. I AGREE with you about Blizzard only making raids is shitty. I agree that they ought to offer alternatives to raiding and if people don't want to raid forcing them into it isn't a good idea but their is an economic reality that has nothing to do with their pile of coffers of cash which isn't how it works anyway. I mean loosing subs means luxuries like SWP go out the window but even if they were still growing I would hope they weren't that fucking stupid that they spent all that time and money so that 1% of you could do that crap that took all that time and money. LFR makes total sense in the universe where raiding is the center of the endgame universe. So long as it remains as such LFR will be here and isn't going anywhere. I don't think raiding should be the center of the end game universe so I'm okay with raiding taking a back seat.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 05:54 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #1145
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    How would they explain that? There is zero proof for it.

    Biggest sub levels were when fewest people raided. To an outsider it just looks like a huge waste of money. You might be right, but you'd need a lot of proof before you get some disinterested investor to hand over hundreds of millions.

    So, lets have that proof. Remember, the proof you show has to get a hardened investor who doesn't give a toss about wow and who can also put his money anywhere (oil, gas, gold, stocks and bonds, housing yuadda yadda) to part with their money.

    I don't know if there will ever be a "prove this person plays wow for this reason", but quite a bit of warcraft's history would indicate that raiding is definitely something that would bring in players if you played the previous games, building armies and fighting it out on the battlefield. The game steadily increased numbers in times that most would agree that the top tier content was not "casual friendly", when they started making heroic 5 mans easy and LFR was introduced, numbers have continually fallen. Why? I suspect it's because while stuff like raids were not the most casual friendly, blizz gave these people other toys to play with. Now I know some will say "well that stuff sucked too", but how was the game getting more and more subs if the content was really that bad?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes your experience is opposite. Okay raiding is your center of the universe. Congratulations. Now we KNOW for a FACT (regardless of your view on this matter or your perception or your circle or whatever) that historically raiding has had VERY LOW participation. So you've built a myth on the one hand and we've got the FACT on the other hand. Which should we believe? That content people NEVER PARTICIPATED IN somehow still managed to entertain them and keep them subscribed. Fairy tales.


    Yes my view point is the center of the universe lol. In all seriousness though, if you played wow previously it was all about forming an army and storming into an enemy base, and while the MMO is different, it'd be silly to remove that aspect of the game. It'd be like if the next Super Smash brother's game didn't have Mario or a few other fan favorite characters in it..... would it save the developers money? Probably. Would it have the fans scratching their head, yes lol. If you ask most players why they are doing something like a rep grind or LFR, they will probably answer "so I can get into a raid".

  6. #1146
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If your only driving goal is to have gear so you can primp and prean in front of a mailbox then yeah, I guess you loose.
    On the other hand if your driving goal is to be able to play a couple of hours a night with a tight-knit group of four or five friends you lose too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    That doesn't mean it needs to go full blown casual like it has since Cata.
    This idea that WoW has been full blown casual since Cata is still mind-boggling to me. There are exactly 0 post-release heroic dungeons to back that statement. MoP has the least casual content of any expansion. Oh, but LFR is for casuals!!! Wrong.

    Casual: small groups, limited play time
    MoP LFR: 25-man group, 45 minute queue plus another 45 minutes to three hours
    MoP Scenarios: No healing or tanks required or desired, three person max

    LFR has never been and never will be for casuals. Scenarios are for solo players who prefer to DPS. That's admittedly a subset of the casual population, but it's probably not the majority of the casual population (or wasn't before MoP).

  7. #1147
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post

    Yes my view point is the center of the universe lol. In all seriousness though, if you played wow previously it was all about forming an army and storming into an enemy base, and while the MMO is different, it'd be silly to remove that aspect of the game. It'd be like if the next Super Smash brother's game didn't have Mario or a few other fan favorite characters in it..... would it save the developers money? Probably. Would it have the fans scratching their head, yes lol. If you ask most players why they are doing something like a rep grind or LFR, they will probably answer "so I can get into a raid".
    NO IT WASN'T. For lots of people it was about the story. Or it was about the characters. Or it was about lvling the hero. Their experiences WERE DIFFERENT THEN YOURS. See but that's the point. You can't possible conceive that OTHER PEOPLE (apparently lots and lots of other people) HAD ZERO POINT ZERO interest in raiding. In fact the few who are only saying so I can't get into a raid BECAUSE THAT'S ALL THEIR IS. That's the point too. You can't CONCEIVE of a universe that didn't have raiding. It's okay neither can the developers apparently. Lots of players, in fact the overwhelming majority of players CAN.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 06:01 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #1148
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    I don't know if there will ever be a "prove this person plays wow for this reason", but quite a bit of warcraft's history would indicate that raiding is definitely something that would bring in players if you played the previous games, building armies and fighting it out on the battlefield. The game steadily increased numbers in times that most would agree that the top tier content was not "casual friendly", when they started making heroic 5 mans easy and LFR was introduced, numbers have continually fallen. Why? I suspect it's because while stuff like raids were not the most casual friendly, blizz gave these people other toys to play with. Now I know some will say "well that stuff sucked too", but how was the game getting more and more subs if the content was really that bad?

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    Yes my view point is the center of the universe lol. In all seriousness though, if you played wow previously it was all about forming an army and storming into an enemy base, and while the MMO is different, it'd be silly to remove that aspect of the game. It'd be like if the next Super Smash brother's game didn't have Mario or a few other fan favorite characters in it..... would it save the developers money? Probably. Would it have the fans scratching their head, yes lol. If you ask most players why they are doing something like a rep grind or LFR, they will probably answer "so I can get into a raid".
    If you ask most players why they rep grind or do LFR they would tell you its because they want the recipies, the mounts or the valor gear and its not to raid its beacuse thats the best gear that they can achieve in the game without raiding. The majority of people do LFR because they don't have the time to raid because real life is more important than a video game. One day, unless you are totally sheltered from real life, you too will have to become a casual because of these things called girls, kids and bills.

  9. #1149
    Quote Originally Posted by Silas Emile View Post
    Is it?

    We travel to a new land, doing quests in odd looking zones, as horde an alliance establish bases in the new land, to come across dungeons, elites, and eventually kill a big bad boss in a big temple.

    Yep. very far removed.

    The only thing removed is the mechanics. And yes i did like the whole attunement/rep for heroics, etc model better, but even better than taht I liked the tabard model.

    Each expansion is a new way of doing things.

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    Oh! and then after all that we have to kill a leader of one of the factions!
    I meant in terms of game play smart arse.

    But you knew that anyway.

  10. #1150
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    On the other hand if your driving goal is to be able to play a couple of hours a night with a tight-knit group of four or five friends you lose too.



    This idea that WoW has been full blown casual since Cata is still mind-boggling to me. There are exactly 0 post-release heroic dungeons to back that statement. MoP has the least casual content of any expansion. Oh, but LFR is for casuals!!! Wrong.

    Casual: small groups, limited play time
    MoP LFR: 25-man group, 45 minute queue plus another 45 minutes to three hours
    MoP Scenarios: No healing or tanks required or desired, three person max

    LFR has never been and never will be for casuals. Scenarios are for solo players who prefer to DPS. That's admittedly a subset of the casual population, but it's probably not the majority of the casual population (or wasn't before MoP).


    I will agree in a weird twist, LFR really isn't even that casual friendly. Between a 45 minute queue and the long, strange road of winning loot you already have, and going through a 90 min long dungeon, and doing that times 4, I don't think it serves casual players very well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If you ask most players why they rep grind or do LFR they would tell you its because they want the recipies, the mounts or the valor gear and its not to raid its beacuse thats the best gear that they can achieve in the game without raiding. The majority of people do LFR because they don't have the time to raid because real life is more important than a video game. One day, unless you are totally sheltered from real life, you too will have to become a casual because of these things called girls, kids and bills.


    *yawn* the typical "I'm playing wow, just like you, but I got a life, unlike you" argument . I've worked for 10 years, got a girlfriend, most of my fellow raiders do too. To be honest, I'd say most raiders I know are more casual than the "casual guys" in LFR.
    Almost everyone I've seen from LFR, when I've discussed it with them pretty much said in one way or another "well, I'm hoping at some point to do normal raids down the road". I'm not so naïve as to believe my experience is the only one out there, and there are some that do it for a variety of reasons, but it'd be silly so say that seeing the real raids is not an incentive for why a lot of people play wow. You greatly over estimate the difficulty in raiding.

  11. #1151
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If you ask most players why they rep grind or do LFR they would tell you its because they want the recipies, the mounts or the valor gear and its not to raid its beacuse thats the best gear that they can achieve in the game without raiding. The majority of people do LFR because they don't have the time to raid because real life is more important than a video game. One day, unless you are totally sheltered from real life, you too will have to become a casual because of these things called girls, kids and bills.
    I mean fact is it's irellevant. Raiding (prior to lfr) had very low participation rates. It wasn't serving to entertain ANYBODY and ultimately hold subscriptions. Well for all that effort and and money to result in such poor participation rates is a collosal waste of time/money/resources. With LFR it's least accessible and potentially serves to entertain more people. Far more than raiding did in the past. Given that people who raid ought to be on theirs hand and knees kissing the ass of every lfr raider. Instead we live in 1984 and it's all twisted around and LFR is this huge sin. Well it is a sin but not for the same reason.

    Their was a blue post I wish I could find it but I think it was chilton? or bashiok maybe anyway they explain LFR paying for content creation.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 06:15 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #1152
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    I will agree in a weird twist, LFR really isn't even that casual friendly. Between a 45 minute queue and the long, strange road of winning loot you already have, and going through a 90 min long dungeon, and doing that times 4, I don't think it serves casual players very well.

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    *yawn* the typical "I'm playing wow, just like you, but I got a life, unlike you" argument . I've worked for 10 years, got a girlfriend, most of my fellow raiders do too. To be honest, I'd say most raiders I know are more casual than the "casual guys" in LFR.
    Almost everyone I've seen from LFR, when I've discussed it with them pretty much said in one way or another "well, I'm hoping at some point to do normal raids down the road". I'm not so naïve as to believe my experience is the only one out there, and there are some that do it for a variety of reasons, but it'd be silly so say that seeing the real raids is not an incentive for why a lot of people play wow. You greatly over estimate the difficulty in raiding.
    Theres a trick to a short Queue, its called making "friends". If you make a "friend" thats a healer or a tank your Queue is almost instant. People like to bitch and moan that LFD/LFR removed the social atmosphere of WoW but the truth is that people only want to socialise with their server when they are forced to. Actually getting to know the people around you on your server must be way too much effort and its just easier to bitch about how theres no social atmosphere in the game anymore than actually make your own social circle.

    And I made a thread on here called "Why do you choose to LFR instead of raiding?" and if you read it you would see that 75% of the answers are because of time. You of course are more than welcome to deny reality and stick to your guns on this one, just dont expect anyone else to agree with you unless they are sniffing the same fumes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I mean fact is it's irellevant. Raiding (prior to lfr) had very low participation rates. It wasn't serving to entertain ANYBODY and ultimately hold subscriptions. Well for all that effort and and money to result in such poor participation rates is a collosal waste of time/money/resources. With LFR it's least accessible and potentially serves to entertain more people. Far more than raiding did in the past. Given that people who raid ought to be on theirs hand and knees kissing the ass of every lfr raider. Instead we live in 1984 and it's all twisted around and LFR is this huge sin. Well it is a sin but not for the same reason.
    You are correct sir, it is irrelevant. I have a hard time not responding when someone on the internet is wrong. :P I'm agreeing with you on all your points.

    If we kept casuals out of the end game content they would do what a friend of mine does, every expansion he logs in, levels to max, tosses down a few dungeons and then quits until the next expansion while talking about how Game X is a superior game. If the hardcore who hate casuals actually got what they wanted the whle ship would go down faster than the titanic and there would be no hardcore end game content, there would just be END GAME.

  13. #1153
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Theres a trick to a short Queue, its called making "friends". If you make a "friend" thats a healer or a tank your Queue is almost instant. People like to bitch and moan that LFD/LFR removed the social atmosphere of WoW but the truth is that people only want to socialise with their server when they are forced to. Actually getting to know the people around you on your server must be way too much effort and its just easier to bitch about how theres no social atmosphere in the game anymore than actually make your own social circle.

    And I made a thread on here called "Why do you choose to LFR instead of raiding?" and if you read it you would see that 75% of the answers are because of time. You of course are more than welcome to deny reality and stick to your guns on this one, just dont expect anyone else to agree with you unless they are sniffing the same fumes.


    Most casual players dont' always have a tank friend or healer friend always on, and as far as I've seen, if the tank or healer drops queue, that dps does too (unless that's been fixed, let me know if that's the case lol). Who is always going to be willing to run a friend thru LFR at the drop of a hat just so they get a short queue? lol

    And you do realize LFR is one of the biggest factors to killing the social atmosphere in the game, correct? Hate it or love it, removing the need to socialize in an MMO is just a bad idea, even if it makes things "more convenient", a big part of what makes and MMO the type of game it is, is having that social atmosphere.


    So yes, you're thread on MMO speaks out for everyone that plays WoW.... and then you talk about denying reality. Makes sense lol. You seem pretty angry just because I said "a lot of people play LFR so they can get into normal raids"... relax guy, this is just a forum and we're just discussing a part of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I mean fact is it's irellevant. Raiding (prior to lfr) had very low participation rates. It wasn't serving to entertain ANYBODY and ultimately hold subscriptions. Well for all that effort and and money to result in such poor participation rates is a collosal waste of time/money/resources. With LFR it's least accessible and potentially serves to entertain more people. Far more than raiding did in the past. Given that people who raid ought to be on theirs hand and knees kissing the ass of every lfr raider. Instead we live in 1984 and it's all twisted around and LFR is this huge sin. Well it is a sin but not for the same reason.

    Their was a blue post I wish I could find it but I think it was chilton? or bashiok maybe anyway they explain LFR paying for content creation.

    Ok, so let me get this straight. A. The game is based way too much around raiding. B. Nobody (or almost nobody raids). So then how can you explain how Wow has been incredibly successful, the most popular MMO of all time?

    Also, let's get real here, who has actually found LFR entertaining? The closest thing I've ever seen was "I was in a good LFR group last night.... we didn't wipe" - does that sound like a really fun experience?

  14. #1154
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post


    You are correct sir, it is irrelevant. I have a hard time not responding when someone on the internet is wrong. :P I'm agreeing with you on all your points.

    If we kept casuals out of the end game content they would do what a friend of mine does, every expansion he logs in, levels to max, tosses down a few dungeons and then quits until the next expansion while talking about how Game X is a superior game. If the hardcore who hate casuals actually got what they wanted the whle ship would go down faster than the titanic and there would be no hardcore end game content, there would just be END GAME.
    Well before we hold hands and sing koombaya I would still have rather them said no thanks to raiding and instead of shoving people into raids done something else even if it meant raiding took a back seat. I agree with Rickjames when he says if people aren't interested in raiding why shove them into it? Hopefully his fairy tale wish comes true and the developers can produce all sorts of alternatives that actually compete with raiding instead of just funneling players into raiding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post

    Ok, so let me get this straight. A. The game is based way too much around raiding. B. Nobody (or almost nobody raids). So then how can you explain how Wow has been incredibly successful, the most popular MMO of all time?

    Also, let's get real here, who has actually found LFR entertaining? The closest thing I've ever seen was "I was in a good LFR group last night.... we didn't wipe" - does that sound like a really fun experience?
    You see that cool elf on the box. Explained. It's a mix of things but quite honestly the cover art on the box had more to do with it then raiding. I suppose one could do a research paper on the topic and the ultimate conclusion would be wow was an mmo game where you could get things done on your own WITHOUT THE NEED TO RAID. It's actually the exact opposite of what your after. Now taken to an extreme it's pretty lame because wow should have some socialization but not necesarilly the raiding kind especially if that's not what people are after. For people in tbc the socialization amounted to people they met on the way to lvling or friends they ran lowbie and maybe even heroic dungeons with. Old man diatribe there but yea raiding had less to do with wows success that like the cover art. Seriously.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 06:28 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #1155
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It's a fairy tale. He isn't right. The dragon on the box or the lich king on the box sold more than raiding ever did. In fact you could make a pretty good argument that the ultra focus on raiding actually drove people away from the game. Like lots of people who couldn't commit to it or didn't like the scene and got fucked over because it's ultimately all the game lead to. Even if it had some mythical power to compel a handful of people to play the game, it's driven far more players away from it and cost them alot more subs than it's ever gained them.

    The problem is that some folks who raid cannot conceptualize a universe where raiding either doesn't exist or isn't the center of that universe. Since they (and in their defense the developers to) think that it really is the center of the universe and ought to be what everyone aspires to it becomes VERY hard for them to understand why people wouldn't be lured by it and VERY easy to come up with a narrative that puts raiding as the games biggest selling draw.
    As a subscription based game, raiding is a lot more important than you give it credit for. SWTOR and GW2 are both great games before you hit level cap. But SWTOR and GW2 lost a lot of customers when people reached level cap and main reason is "there is not enough to do". WoW's end game (raiding) is what keeps WoW rolling.

    Granted, raiding isn't the only thing (and it doesn't have to be), but it is the main draw of WoW for peple to stay. I can tell you without raiding, there will not be a subscription based wow. Blizzard has been playing with other ideas to keep people playing and let's see some of these ideas:

    1. pet battle
    2. dailies
    3. pet/mount/title farming

    Other than these, players simply consume contents faster than what Blizzard can put out. And I don't think any of those can keep players paying 15 a month. Another choice is to put out new compelling content very rapidly so players feel each patch is new and fresh and stay subbed. This is possible but I think this model is much harder to maintain compared to the raiding model.

    MMO genre as a whole, no company has been able to come up with another end game activity to keep players paying 15 a month so raiding is here to stay. I think eve online has some pretty cool crafting system so players mostly pvp + making things for end game. But again, eve online is no where close to the scale of WoW. If WoW does go F2P then it's very possible that WoW would stop producing raids (or change payment model so you pay to have access to raiding).
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  16. #1156
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    You see that cool elf on the box. Explained. It's a mix of things but quite honestly the cover art on the box had more to do with it then raiding.


    So if I put a night elf on a box and sold it to the public, I'd be a millionaire then?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    As a subscription based game, raiding is a lot more important than you give it credit for. SWTOR and GW2 are both great games before you hit level cap. But SWTOR and GW2 lost a lot of customers when people reached level cap and main reason is "there is not enough to do".


    Amen! 10 chars

  17. #1157
    Blademaster Veritas94's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urti View Post
    The rarest spawn in the whole game is apparently a player who is enjoying themselves....
    It's a sad realization that this is completely true too..

  18. #1158
    the barrier to get into raiding was raised way to high since cata. from there onwards the difficulty has steadily climbed. the only person this benifits is the experianced raider. there is no room for newer raiders they are squeezed out due to the non-tolerance of the experianced raider and the caustic attitudes they bring to a raid when they see someone under performing.

    as people run out of things to do or ways to improve they will quit out of frustration. once that starts you get an empty friends list .. then an empty guild.. good luck finding a new guild not full of arrogent i use to HC assholes that think gods gift of raiding was ment strictly for them.. (what most failed to mention were they were just the normals who didnt do anything but show up on farm days..)

    We litterally had a guy in our guild who went off joined a HC guild who was in firelands.. they had over 50% of the instance on farm. he would be strangely absent on any type of progression content that night for them but on the farm nights.. he was there bright and early.. and when he came back.. wow what an ass.. our guild wasnt good enough everyone sucked and he was a HC player.. it was quite funny when our guild leader yelled at him to shut his mouth that he was carried through content and that doesnt make him HC in anyway. (he raged gquit and then lost his HC guild 2 weeks later) .. this has been the typical experiance from hardcore players that normals have seen. and you guys think people want to join that?????

  19. #1159
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    As a subscription based game, raiding is a lot more important than you give it credit for.
    No I give it exactly the credit it's due. I just don't subscribe to the fairy tale that wows end game (raiding) is what keeps it going when the vast overwhelming majority of people were not actually raiding and when given an alternative that rewarded as well they chose the alternative. Hell they'll take the LFR alternative over normal raiding. Given how low the participation rates werein the past I feel it's most of you who give it far to much. As for the items you list you notice that most have generally awarded little to no character progression certainly not enough to compete with raiding once again.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 06:42 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #1160
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No I give it exactly the credit it's due. I just don't subscribe to the fairy tale that wows end game (raiding) is what keeps it going when the vast overwhelming majority of people were not actually raiding and when given an alternative that rewarded as well they chose the alternative. Given how low the participation rates were I feel it's most of you who give it far to much. As for the items you list you notice that most have generally awarded little to no character progression certainly not enough to compete with raiding once again.
    somewhat agre here.. blizzard has not let anything compete with raiding except for the extreame end of pvp. you cant get gear nearly as good as the HC raiders. even crafted gear for a given patch normally requires materials you cant obtain outside of raiding.. (and no you cant buy them with valor points either)

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