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  1. #1181
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    If Ghostcrawler says "heroics should be hard that's his opinion and ultimately his opinion and taste will influence design. He got lots of push back on that from cataclysm and well yea we know how that worked out. If ghostcralwer says "historically very players actually ever raided" then he's not giving us his opinion he's giving us a fact that he knows is a fact because he has access to the data. It would not be weird if nobody ever came to this forum and answered your clarion call (although it's certainly possible somebody will) because few players ever actually go on forums, even the official ones let alone 3rd party fan sites populated primarily by raiders and hardcore players.

    I get the distinct feeling I'm being trolled now because I think I've been very clear in all this but instead of acting as insight to the ignorant I'm just getting more feedback. Hmmmm


    We also know how well caving into the demands worked out over heroics lol... they are almost non-existant now. And while few players may go to the forums, there are definitely a lot of people who consider themselves casual - my point is, if nobody here says they haven't raided, you probably shouldn't believe the hype about this "1%" stuff. So now you honestly think posting on MMO makes you a hard core player or a raider?
    I always get the feeling I'm being trolled on these forums personally too lol.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    But that's the point. They seemingly just can't conceive of how fucking utterly minscule their hobby was in the larger scope of things. Their like some ant crawling on a basketball thinking it's the king shit of the basketball when it's gonna get bounced and squashed. Critical thinking man I'm telling you. It's missing from schools these days.

    I'm hoping you guys realize the "7 man dungeon" was meant as a joke lol. You can't honestly believe people would be hyped up about something like that, would you?

  2. #1182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They broke the game with Cataclysm, and haven't figured out how to unbreak it. I'm not sure it's even possible to fix it now.
    Really any number of thread forums summed up nicely.

    "All the king's horses and all the king's men..."
    If you have anything to contribute to a thread topic, please do so. Discussing moderation or calling out specific people is against the rules and makes a post liable for an infraction. Please report problem posts. If anyone is unclear about the rules please read our FAQ. Thanks.

    It's a magical world, Hobbes, ol' buddy...let's go exploring!

  3. #1183
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    [They're] like some ant crawling on a basketball thinking it's the king shit of the basketball when it's gonna get bounced and squashed.
    The classic metaphor is from Aesop:

    "The fly sat upon the axle-tree of the chariot-wheel and said, What a dust do I raise!"
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  4. #1184
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    We also know how well caving into the demands worked out over heroics lol... they are almost non-existant now. And while few players may go to the forums, there are definitely a lot of people who consider themselves casual - my point is, if nobody here says they haven't raided, you probably shouldn't believe the hype about this "1%" stuff. So now you honestly think posting on MMO makes you a hard core player or a raider?
    I always get the feeling I'm being trolled on these forums personally too lol.
    No. Heroics are non existent these days because they take as much time to make as raids and the developers decided to make raids the primary focus of the game, especially super bloated raids with 13+ bosses and all kinds of trash. I take the developers at their word when it comes to data. They have access to it. I disagree with their interpretation of that data or their assessment of it but if they say raid participation was historically low you can bet your bottom dollar it was. In fact if they go so far to design lfr to fix it you can rest assured not only was it low it was comically and embarrassingly low.


    And yea I do think people want smaller party content. I think people like playing with 3 or 4 of their regular buddies. I got a small group of irl buddies I play dota with and we have a blast. It's literally like 3 or 4 of us and we played co-op other games for years. I think theirs ALOT of design space there.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 08:32 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #1185
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I'll let you in on a secret, you can make more than one friend on your server. You are basically saying you don't want to make any friends on your server unless you are forced to make friends to do things because there is no random queue. Sounds backassward to me. I actually enjoy LFR a lot, I always go in with my friends, who are either always on when I am on or the fact that I make a lot of friends on my server. Every group is a roll of the dice but my friends and I talk on Teamspeak or vent when we do them and its quite entertaining. These arguments about ruining the community don't hold water at all, your community is what you make of it. You either make friends or bitch that your not being forced to make friends. I know, you actually have to try but thats all part of the deal. In the old days the community didn't stop anything more than a random noob from misbehaving, if you had a guild that congratulated you for being a jerk to others then (because they were jerks too) they never saw any consequences.


    I look forward to hearing more of your secrets. It doesn't change the fact that most casual players aren't friends with a ton of tanks and healers that will run them thru LFR whenever they need it. Hell, it sounds like I need to make friends with your friends, maybe they can level up my battling pets for me.

    And I'm not saying to force people to make friends, I'm saying don't take out incentives to make friends - very big difference. You're twisting my words here and you're probably aware of it.



    When did you start playing WoW? If you played back in vanilla, BC, or even parts of wotlk, there's no doubt there's a huge change in the server communities. Teaming up with random strangers you'll never chat with again from 1 to max level did that.

    In the old days, the people that acted like jerks got dealt with accordingly, ninja's get black listed, guys that purposely wiped groups - now blizzard gives them a mechanism so they can't get booted from groups after a while lol. Which one sounds better, dealing with a snobby guild leader, one in which you can quit? Or teaming up with random morons on a regular basis that more often than not, you can't boot, and being faced with having to wait 15 min for a new dungeon queue?

  6. #1186
    Heres my take on the decline of Subscriptions. it's not directly casuals fault. Blizzard has been dumbing down the early game for those people wanting to join the rest of us with the current storyline and thats not a terrible thing. However the problem is that new players or even new alts have no feeling of investment.

    I've played my main character since day one. I still play that character. Every expansion I level him up the first few days grinding at the point where i still have to (kind of ) work to go through every quest available and experience the story. Then later in the expansion i feel like running an alt and trying out the new flavor class / race. I start out with high hopes, then realize that halfway through the first zone im suddenly overleveled for the zone. My choice is either to do grey quests, get no xp or just move to the next level appropriate quest hub until that one runs out as well. but im still only getting the start of the story of each zone. Most zones are setup to lead up to a pretty cool questline ending and reward, but by the time you get to it, its useless.

    My main character has all the emotional and time investment that gets me coming back to playing with him. That character has done all these quests, and been made a hero by my actions.

    So how to fix this? I think i have a pretty good way. Blizzard needs to go through all the zones questlines, then identify the quests that need to be completed verses the ones that are optional. Mark these with a Red ! instead of a yellow or blue or green one, then adjust the quest xp so that a character going through that zone will actually finish the zones main questline at the end of that zones expected level range. A new player or an alt could choose to go the fun exploring route to level a character quickly instead of just eventually just logging on, doing a daily LFG or two with the rested xp buff, then putting it aside. People find it easy to quit the game because they have little reason to stay. Reestablishing that connection can be done with the current setup. Blizzard just needs to work on that instead of expecting flashy silly trinkets and vanity items to keep people around.

  7. #1187
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    WoW was getting consistently more casual friendly UNTILL Cata.
    By the reduction of grinds which Cata continued to do only to get reversed in MoP. If Cata was to cater to the hardcore then it would have had more grinds than WotLK along with slower gear catch ups. The time investment to get stuff done in Cata was far shorter than WotLK along with far faster reward rates for non-raiders. Cata went too casual in terms of time investment on an individual character leaving many players bored and bitching about access to other content they had no interests in prior. If Cata was to cater to the hardcores then it would have continued with the WotLK model which involved non-raiders getting scraps for VP and those interested in VP capping would have had to run a daily heroic, weekly raid boss, world boss, and both 10 and 25 man raid lockouts to hit VP cap.

    I was spending about five hours a week in the game with stuff to do while no-lifers QQ about having nothing to do. The difficulty was not the biggest issue, it was content and length of grinds available.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-09-11 at 08:38 PM.

  8. #1188
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No. Heroics are non existent these days because they take as much time to make as raids and the developers decided to make raids the primary focus of the game, especially super bloated raids with 13+ bosses and all kinds of trash. I take the developers at their word when it comes to data. They have access to it. I disagree with their interpretation of that data or their assessment of it but if they say raid participation was historically low you can bet your bottom dollar it was. In fact if they go so far to design lfr to fix it you can rest assured not only was it low it was comically and embarrassingly low.


    And yea I do think people want smaller party content. I think people like playing with 3 or 4 of their regular buddies. I got a small group of irl buddies I play dota with and we have a blast. It's literally like 3 or 4 of us and we played co-op other games for years. I think theirs ALOT of design space there.
    5 man heroics are becoming non-existant because of heavy nerfs leading players to being bored, and because of very poor gear (since they have been heavily nerfed). And again, you take the developers at their word when they agree with points you're trying to make lol, I'll revert back to my ghostcrawler statement. While we don't have as many 5 mans this expansion, there's still like what, 10? Who actually runs them?
    And again, if raid population is low, how come nobody here is saying "they are right, I never raided"... oh yeah, everyone here, yourself included, must be a hard core raider.

  9. #1189
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    . The time investment to get stuff done in Cata was far shorter than WotLK along with far faster reward rates for non-raiders.
    This is only true if you were able to overcome the challenge of both harder heroic dungeons and harder raids. In the end wiping in a dungeon ultimately results in the same complaint that dailies or the grind from mists brought. It takes far to long to get anything done or to get any character progression in.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 08:42 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #1190
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    You might have a point, but the fact is that the only reason casual players come into contact with endgame content at all is because hardcores whingers got the levelling time nerfed to hell and back.
    Hardcores level shit up while the non-hardcore bitch about the grind of leveling another character. It is the casuals and part of Blizzards attempts to get more new players to max level which was the result of the leveling nerfs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    This is only true if you were able to overcome the challenge of both harder heroic dungeons and harder raids. In the end wiping in a dungeon ultimately results in the same complaint that dailies or the grind from mists brought. It takes far to long to get anything done.
    Which is why I said there was a lack of content and lasting grinds which resulted in players looking for other avenues to keep themselves busy. Those who could surpass those was still bitching of nothing to do. Blizzard designed Cata along with a bunch of caps to hinder the no-lifer/hardcore section of the playerbase so that casuals of limited time would not feel like they was left behind or needing to invest so much time to keep up. Blizzards act of hand holding proved to have gone too far in Cata.

    Early WotLK there was a lot of complaints about lack of things to do like dailies as they was comparing and end of the expansion experience to that of a new one.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-09-11 at 08:47 PM.

  11. #1191
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    5 man heroics are becoming non-existant because of heavy nerfs leading players to being bored, and because of very poor gear (since they have been heavily nerfed). And again, you take the developers at their word when they agree with points you're trying to make lol, I'll revert back to my ghostcrawler statement. While we don't have as many 5 mans this expansion, there's still like what, 10? Who actually runs them?
    And again, if raid population is low, how come nobody here is saying "they are right, I never raided"... oh yeah, everyone here, yourself included, must be a hard core raider.
    Once again it's called critical thinking. If the developers say "we think we should make hard dungeons" or "we think raiding is where everyone should be at" then yea I can argue that because ultimately it's their opinion and taste and that's influencing the game deisgn. However if they say "we like dungeons but were gonna focus on raids" (which they have said) then I can take them on their word because it's simple a statement of fact. They are focusing on dungeons. The opinion is that they think is best. The act (which is a fact as they have said and any clown will tell you) is that they are focusing on raids instead of making dungeons.

    Nobody runs the 5 mans because they don't offer current gear and haven't been updated. Oy vey you really are stuck on stupid about this whole nobody is saying anything. I mean it would do well if somebody just came in here and shut you up because you seemingly cannot get the point that this website is not indicative of jack shit (nor is this thread). Theirs two things players have historically not done. Raided and posted on 3rd party fan sites.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 08:49 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #1192
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No I don't agree. LVLING was the end game for people. Raiding could not serve as end game for most people because IT DIDN'T. We know this as a fact. Since so few people ACTUALLY PARTICIPATED in the act. It's utterly fucking asinine to say well raiding kept people entertained and subscribed at max lvl WHEN NEXT TO NOBODY FUCKING RAIDED.
    I didn't realize people considered leveling as end game once they hit max level -_-

    Ok, what do you suggest a player did back then after max level? In my personal experience, everyone I knew did dungeons and some raided. There was only 1 guy who was obsessed at obtaining all BS recipe and BS crafting was his end game (but even he was doign dungeons).

    Ultimately, I would say VAST AMOUNT of players did dungeons and raids as their end game. I do not for a second buy the idea that most people didn't in fact touch dungeons or raids. Where are you even getting this "fact" from?

    Why don't you clarify your "multifaceted" end game of WoW that kept players subbed month after month after max level? In your experience, what did people focus their time on besides dungeons and raids? You think millions of people simply leveled alts after alts?
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  13. #1193
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    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    I didn't realize people considered leveling as end game once they hit max level -_-

    Ok, what do you suggest a player did back then after max level? In my personal experience, everyone I knew did dungeons and some raided. There was only 1 guy who was obsessed at obtaining all BS recipe and BS crafting was his end game (but even he was doign dungeons).

    Ultimately, I would say VAST AMOUNT of players did dungeons and raids as their end game. I do not for a second buy the idea that most people didn't in fact touch dungeons or raids. Where are you even getting this "fact" from?

    Why don't you clarify your "multifaceted" end game of WoW that kept players subbed month after month after max level? In your experience, what did people focus their time on besides dungeons and raids? You think millions of people simply leveled alts after alts?
    Once they hit max lvl they often quit. SO yes it was end game for them. Once again raiding CANNOT serve as end game when we know for a fact that it didn't. So what did? pvp certainly especially with arena. umm crafting became a thing in tbc it had alot behind it much more so than even now actually. Heroic dungeons to (although less so than say LFD), farming for flying mount, lvling an alt, get rep in normal dungeons,. Ultimately yea alot of them did quit though. The developers just had incredible turn over rates and they also have the data to back that up to. In any event none of these things are Raiding.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #1194
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No I don't agree. LVLING was the end game for people.

    Leveling is the end game..... the statement itself is self contradictory. Also, so just because a lot of people don't hit max level, you're saying blizz shouldn't put stuff in for the people that actually do hit it? Besides 5 mans of course or dota. Come on man, if you were designing the game, everquest would be on top right now lol.

  15. #1195
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Leveling is the end game..... the statement itself is self contradictory. Also, so just because a lot of people don't hit max level, you're saying blizz shouldn't put stuff in for the people that actually do hit it? Besides 5 mans of course or dota. Come on man, if you were designing the game, everquest would be on top right now lol.
    Actually the developers were a success by moving things away from the EQ model. It's not contradictory for those players because for them the game stopped at max lvl. They quit after. I'm saying exactly as you did instead of forcing people to raid who didn't raid in the past they ought to just develop content for those people instead. If that means raids kinda have to suck then so be it. That's the choice your asking for Blizzard is not omnipotent and can't simple pull content out of their ass.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 08:56 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #1196
    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    I didn't realize people considered leveling as end game once they hit max level -_-

    Ok, what do you suggest a player did back then after max level?
    He said in an earlier thread that once they hit max level, they just roll a new toon and then level that lol. Yes, nobody that hits max level with their toon wants to see the content they can play once they get there.


    Seirously glorious leader, I cant' even believe you believe some of this stuff lol - why would someone just level up when they aren't going to do anything after that?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Actually the developers were a success by putting things away from the EQ model. It's not contradictory for those players because for them the game stopped at max lvl. They quit after.


    Yes, with your model players would quit. The point of wow is to keep players playing, hence why they put stuff in like raids for those that do hit max level.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Once again it's called critical thinking. If the developers say "we think we should make hard dungeons" or "we think raiding is where everyone should be at" then yea I can argue that because ultimately it's their opinion and taste and that's influencing the game deisgn. However if they say "we like dungeons but were gonna focus on raids" (which they have said) then I can take them on their word because it's simple a statement of fact. They are focusing on dungeons. The opinion is that they think is best. The act (which is a fact as they have said and any clown will tell you) is that they are focusing on raids instead of making dungeons.

    Nobody runs the 5 mans because they don't offer current gear and haven't been updated. Oy vey you really are stuck on stupid about this whole nobody is saying anything. I mean it would do well if somebody just came in here and shut you up because you seemingly cannot get the point that this website is not indicative of jack shit (nor is this thread). Theirs two things players have historically not done. Raided and posted on 3rd party fan sites.
    People don't run 5 mans for a lot of reasons, lack of fun and gear are the two biggest reasons. The reasons they happened were due to over nerfs.

    As for the developers saying "almost nobody ever raided", they are taking into account people that don't hit max level, people that just aren't into raiding, and people that do stuff like PvP, which is a huge portion of wow's population. Just because of that, that doesn't mean we shouldn't have content for people that hit max level.

  17. #1197
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    He said in an earlier thread that once they hit max level, they just roll a new toon and then level that lol. Yes, nobody that hits max level with their toon wants to see the content they can play once they get there.


    Seirously glorious leader, I cant' even believe you believe some of this stuff lol - why would someone just level up when they aren't going to do anything after that?

    - - - Updated - - -





    Yes, with your model players would quit. The point of wow is to keep players playing, hence why they put stuff in like raids for those that do hit max level.
    Because the content offered at max level wasn't appealing to them. That content was primarily centered around raiding and subsequently since raiding had so little appeal they quit. they either didn't like the raiding scene or couldn't fit it into their life style. Ultimately TBC and Vanilla suceeded in spite of their design rather than because of it. The developers simple exhausted the market of people who would potentially play the game or a game like it. They took the air out of the room.

    If their goal was to keep players playing then raids were a pretty bad way about going through that. Like I said raids had very little participation so it isn't clear to anybody with any lick of sense that raiding kept people playing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post


    People don't run 5 mans for a lot of reasons, lack of fun and gear are the two biggest reasons. The reasons they happened were due to over nerfs.

    As for the developers saying "almost nobody ever raided", they are taking into account people that don't hit max level, people that just aren't into raiding, and people that do stuff like PvP, which is a huge portion of wow's population. Just because of that, that doesn't mean we shouldn't have content for people that hit max level.
    No they take into account everybody. Yhey also say they lose lots of people on the way to max level but I mean I don't see the point of your distinction either. I mean your basically saying everybody who doesn't participate in raiding is alot of people who don't participate in raiding. Duh. That's the fucking point man. Why should such a huge mass of players be ignored or shoved off to the side so you can get your fill? I mean you at least now understand you and your hobby were a real minority thing. Now do you understand why lfr has to exist? Your hobby took up to much time and provided to little entertainment for to few people. BUT YOU WON. We don't have dungeons anymore so they could save raids. RAIDERS WIN.

    That's quite honestly as clear as I can make it. If you did any research or looked into any of this it would come as no surprise. I'm done boyo. You can keep carrying on with whatever. I've made it as CRYSTAL CLEAR and frankly at this point I do think I'm being trolled.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 09:08 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  18. #1198
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    By the reduction of grinds which Cata continued to do only to get reversed in MoP. If Cata was to cater to the hardcore then it would have had more grinds than WotLK along with slower gear catch ups. The time investment to get stuff done in Cata was far shorter than WotLK along with far faster reward rates for non-raiders. Cata went too casual in terms of time investment on an individual character leaving many players bored and bitching about access to other content they had no interests in prior. If Cata was to cater to the hardcores then it would have continued with the WotLK model which involved non-raiders getting scraps for VP and those interested in VP capping would have had to run a daily heroic, weekly raid boss, world boss, and both 10 and 25 man raid lockouts to hit VP cap.

    I was spending about five hours a week in the game with stuff to do while no-lifers QQ about having nothing to do. The difficulty was not the biggest issue, it was content and length of grinds available.
    Wrong, Cata reduced the time spent in grinds but basically negated any dungeon to any casual that didnt have an hour and a half.

    Almost no one was crying that there wasnt anything to do in Cata untill they released only two dungeons in six months.

    Cata didnt went too casual, Cata was the first time in WoW's history where Blizzard changed direction and instead of making the expansion more casual friendly they did it LESS casual friendly. They took dungeons away from a lot of people only to give them to the elitist hardcore group, which of course wasnt sattisfied (they never were, they werent sattisfied in TBC either, even when now with rose tinted glasses they say they are. I was there in TBC where hardcores were saying that Blizzard had dumbed down the game too far).
    They arent satisfied now with the harder than ever normal raids and the long grinds.

    The difficulty WAS the bigger issue, and it was the issue that lost the most subs to Blizzard.
    Last edited by Crashdummy; 2013-09-11 at 09:11 PM.

  19. #1199
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Because the content offered at max level wasn't appealing to them. That content was primarily centered around raiding and subsequently since raiding had so little appeal they quit. they either didn't like the raiding scene or couldn't fit it into their life style. Ultimately TBC and Vanilla suceeded in spite of their design rather than because of it. The developers simple exhausted the market of people who would potentially play the game or a game like it. They took the air out of the room.

    If their goal was to keep players playing then raids were a pretty bad way about going through that. Like I said raids had very little participation so it isn't clear to anybody with any lick of sense that raiding kept people playing.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No they take into account everybody. Yhey also say they lose lots of people on the way to max level but I mean I don't see the point of your distinction either. I mean your basically saying everybody who doesn't participate in raiding is alot of people who don't participate in raiding. Duh. That's the fucking point man. Why should such a huge mass of players be ignored or shoved off to the side so you can get your fill? I mean you at least now understand you and your hobby were a real minority thing. Now do you understand why lfr has to exist? Your hobby took up to much time and provided to little entertainment for to few people.

    That's quite honestly as clear as I can make it. If you did any research or looked into any of this it would come as no surprise. I'm done boyo. You can keep carrying on with whatever. I've made it as CRYSTAL CLEAR and frankly at this point I do think I'm being trolled.

    In vanilla, having an alt, especially at max level, was considered hardcore lol. I seriously can't believe you think most people just level alts once they hit max level. Why play the game at that point? That's like me grinding out a huge rep and not buying a mount of getting any sort of reward. If you really don't want to do stuff at the max level in WoW.... maybe wow isn't your game, have you considered that before? Blizzard changing the game to cater to people that don't like MMO's, in my opinion, is what has caused many of the bad changes. There's plenty of other games that may be up that type of person's alley. Beyond all of that, considering wow is the most popular MMO, I think you and me both know you are doing more than just a little embellishing here.
    My point with the other topic is, if blizzard takes out raiding, there isn't much for a max level player to do, and they would quit. Because of raiding that doesn't happen tho. Even for people that don't raid, using content that can lead to the possibility of raiding has been a strong factor in wow. You may disagree, but based off of Wow's numbers you'd be wrong, and if you wants facts, there's your fact.

    And if these people don't like raiding, chances are they won't like LFR either (which appears to be the case from many posts I see) which is why I say LFR should be taken out of the game. Direct people to other stuff, but if they don't like raiding..... don't make them raid, and especially don't give them a failed version of a raid instead. You're
    essentially agreeing that LFR sucks but they should keep it in the game, why? lol

  20. #1200
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Wrong, Cata reduced the time spen in grinds but basically negated any dungeon to any casual that didnt have an hour and a half.

    Almost no one was crying that there wasnt anything to do in Cata untill they released only two dungeons in six months.

    Cata didnt went too casual, Cata was the first time in WoW's history where Blizzard changed direction and instead of making the expansion more casual friendly they did it LESS casual friendly. They took dungeons away from a lot of people only to give them to the elitist hardcore group, which of course wasnt sattisfied (they never were, they werent sattisfied in TBC either, even when now with rose tinted glasses they say they are. I was there in TBC where hardcores were saying that Blizzard had dumbed down the game too far).
    They arent satisfied now with the harder than ever normal raids and the long grinds.

    The difficulty WAS the bigger issue, and it was the issue that lost the most subs to Blizzard.
    WotLK heroics took an hour and a half for lesser skilled groups at launch and even longer for some in the more difficult ones ignoring the time invested putting groups together and meeting up.

    Yes there was players crying about nothing to do in early Cata. The QQ only intensified months after 4.1 which was released early by delaying the raid launch into another patch to deal with lack of content issues.

    Casual does not equal bad and make them incapable of getting out of a fire or talking with team members. Cata had a lot less endgame available than any previous expansion. The daily grinds was pitiful compared to that of WotLK at launch along with faster leveling and gearing pace. Casuals come in all varieties. Yes it was a road block for those who could not invest at least an hours worth of time while it was more convenient for the weekend warrior types or those who dont have time to play everyday let alone on a schedule. Just because something requires more time investment does not make it more difficult, just less convenient.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-09-11 at 09:21 PM.

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