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  1. #1201
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    A minority even with a 30% buff to players only a minority raided and a minority of that cleared the whole raid despite how long it was out. It wouldnt have mattered if T11 was Naxx 2.0 difficulty which did have one shot mechanics along with those where one person could wipe a group, there still would had been a minority raiding and many of those realms which had troubled raiding populations still would have done shitty and failed to kill a boss like KT.


    I always hear "nobody raided" or "almost nobody" or "a minority"... but again, we've yet to see someone on these forums that has admitted to never raiding at all during the game. And I know obviously people that didn't hit max level never raided, but for those of us that stuck with the game, there's some weird fallacy where "only 1% of the people raided" on these forums lol.

  2. #1202
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    My point I was trying to argue here is that typically "end game" is the term used once you are done leveling. As for people that PvP, many of them do it at max level as well - there are definitely twinks out there, but how many of them don't have a max level alt? I love lowbie BG's though, I have leveled a few toons just to do them.
    That being said, how many people do you know that level an alt to max level, do nothing with it, and then roll a new alt? If it's because they don't like the stuff at max level.... chances are they wouldn't like the stuff they do while leveling too.
    I know. And there are people that say the game doesn't begin until 90. That's not true for everyone and I believe that the group of people that you dismiss are much larger than you would believe. As are the group of people who log on for 2-5 hours a week. For them, leveling alts, running a dungeon or two, pet battles are fine. I understand that you don't believe this but there's plenty of evidence from Blizzard that supports it, a lot of it dismissed as lies (even though there's no particular bonus for Blizzard in not telling the truth). I do a little bit of normal raiding--only a little and mostly as a sub because my travel schedule doesn't allow me to always be there consistently--and it's rare for me to be in the game more than five hours a week. Usually a couple of hours on a weeknight and a few hours on weekends.

    Too many people have their entire view of how people actually experience the game colored by forum chatter.

    To answer one of your questions specifically, there are at least 4 people in my guild (that I know of) that level alts on a constant basis, run dungeons and never bother to sign up for raid night. Three of them principally do PVP. One of them is seen only on weekends. The raiding they do when they bother with it at all is to solo old raids for transmog gear. It's not really a large guild. I would be surprised if there are more than 30 accounts total with a group of about 15-20 accounts that are more active than the rest. There are more of these kinds of players than you realize.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-09-11 at 10:09 PM.
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  3. #1203
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    If you really don't want to do stuff at the max level in WoW.... maybe wow isn't your game, have you considered that before?
    YES. And so has Blizzard. That's what they're trying to change. Many players on this forum are sympathetic to your view, saying, "Good. If you don't want to raid you don't belong in my game!!!" Blizzard takes the opposite view because they want as many people as possible to continue playing their game for as long as possible so they can make as much money off subscriptions as possible. That's why it's not in their best interest to cater exclusively to the hardcore. Their response has been to dumb down raids in the hopes of making them attractive to the majority, but it's not working because, as Glorious Leader and I keep pointing out, casual players don't like raids, never wanted them, and still don't want them.

    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    I say LFR should be taken out of the game
    You don't like LFR and I don't like LFR. Some players, however, do like LFR, and it's cheap for Blizzard to make and maintain. Why do you want to remove it? I don't like PvP or pet battles, but I'm not calling for those to be removed either. Just because a game has content you don't enjoy doesn't mean it should be removed. Different strokes for different folks, etc.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-09-11 at 10:13 PM.

  4. #1204
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I know. And there are people that say the game doesn't begin until 90. That's not true for everyone and I believe that the group of people that you dismiss are much larger than you would believe. As are the group of people who log on for 2-5 hours a week. For them, leveling alts, running a dungeon or two, pet battles are fine. I understand that you don't believe this but there's plenty of evidence from Blizzard that supports it, a lot of it dismissed as lies (even though there's no particular bonus for Blizzard in not telling the truth). I do a little bit of normal raiding--only a little and mostly as a sub because my travel schedule doesn't allow me to always be there consistently--and it's rare for me to be in the game more than five hours a week. Usually a couple of hours on a weeknight and a few hours on weekends.

    Too many people have their entire view of how people actually experience the game colored by forum chatter.

    To answer one of your questions specifically, there are at least 4 people in my guild (that I know of) that level alts on a constant basis, run dungeons and never bother to sign up for raid night. Three of them principally do PVP. One of them is seen only on weekends. The raiding they do when they bother with it at all is to solo old raids for transmog gear. It's not really a large guild. I would be surprised if there are more than 30 accounts total with a group of about 15-20 accounts that are more active than the rest. There are more of these kinds of players than you realize.


    I don't exactly dismiss people that hit max level and then never play that toon (or extremely rarely), but I just don't see many of those people that exist. Glorious leader was implying this was a regular thing - I almost never saw this and I've been playing since launch lol. It sounds contradictory that they enjoyed the grind to 90, when there's plenty of stuff at 90 that's just the same. People can still quest if they like it, dungeons, 5 mans, etc. All that stuff is still there.



    I can't put my finger on it, but I'm imagining some of the people on here feel like guys that raided were mean to them or treated them unfairly, and that's where a lot of this debate stems from. As for the PvP'ers in the guild, they are enjoying their form of content, and like anyone else, not saying it's wrong to enjoy what they enjoy, and there's definitely a lot of other people that just PvP without doing PvE (I used to be one of them many times over lol). But anyways, have these dudes that PvP now *never* raided a dungeon before? Or do they just choose not to raid right now? There's a big difference between "I used to raid, but don't now" and "I never raided".... we're getting a lot of people saying people never raided, when I think it's a lot more likely that they did raid at some points in time, but probably not *all* the time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    YES. And so has Blizzard. That's what they're trying to change. Many players on this forum are sympathetic to your view, saying, "Good. If you don't want to raid you don't belong in my game!!!" Blizzard takes the opposite view because they want as many people as possible to continue playing their game for as long as possible so they can make as much money off subscriptions as possible. That's why it's not in their best interest to cater exclusively to the hardcore. Their response has been to dumb down raids in the hopes of making them attractive to the majority, but it's not working because, as Glorious Leader and I keep pointing out, casual players don't like raids, never wanted them, and still don't want them.


    You don't like LFR and I don't like LFR. Some players, however, do like LFR, and it's cheap for Blizzard to make and maintain. Why do you want to remove it? I don't like PvP or pet battles, but I'm not calling for those to be removed either. Just because a game has content you don't enjoy doesn't mean it should be removed. Different strokes for different folks, etc.

    My point about blizz trying to appease these people is, if they don't like wow, maybe just let them leave? Because in the process, they change the game so much to please those types that it's not as fun as it used to be for those that liked the original wow in the first place. I know it sounds mean like that, but for example, if I don't like first person shooters, I wouldn't buy a first person shooter, then go on that game's forums, and ask for the developers to change certain aspects of it. And yes, there are a lot of people that don't like raiding, I would strongly recommend a different game, I'm not trying to sound like a jerk (seriously), but Wow is always going to have a strong element of raiding in it.


    As for LFR, I'm saying, and I'm sure you may agree, but for different reasons, LFR is not really a fun game and doesn't deliver on a lot of the experiences that make wow great in the first place. STuff like challenges, socialization, and progression, are really not in LFR. The game has given casuals fun content before, they can do it again. I'm definitely not saying just take it out and don't give them anything, but give them the wow experience, don't give them a half baked raid.

  5. #1205
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    I always hear "nobody raided" or "almost nobody" or "a minority"... but again, we've yet to see someone on these forums that has admitted to never raiding at all during the game. And I know obviously people that didn't hit max level never raided, but for those of us that stuck with the game, there's some weird fallacy where "only 1% of the people raided" on these forums lol.
    It's pretty tiresome whenever someone mentions "1%" or "5%" pertaining to players that saw the instances.

    While it's true it doesn't show the true interest in raids.
    The statistic includes players who aren't even eligible of entering them, levelers.
    Besides this it completely ommits the playerbase that wants to raid or were in the process of reaching the instance but again our metric of acceptable participation is the time it takes for Blizzard to release the next tier which is entirely unfair.

    So the "1%" or "5%" argument is just a hyperbole used at the convenience of the respective topic.
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  6. #1206
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    You say many here have raided before, but I'm sure there's many that would call themselves casual. And if raiding is a very "hardcore thing that only a small minority ever did" then I'm sure you'd agree that there would be at least a few whom spoke up and said "I never did it". I don't think MMO is that hard core, do you?
    I do think it's pretty hard core, actually. Casual players generally don't care enough about the game to register on a forum just for the sake of discussing this game that they don't care that much about. I would say that I aspired to be casual and constantly failed at it. First in WotLK I got sucked into a raiding guild by my friends. After a couple of months I was removed from the raiding invite list, despite having been at every raid since joining, because I always marked myself tentative. When I discussed this with the raid leader they said that attendance had gotten so spotty that they were mandating definite attendance. I replied that I would never prioritize a raid over family needs and that I would be happy to be designated an alternative raider and given lower priority, but I was told I would never be invited to raid again. So I quit the guild.

    At about that time, Tim Buckley from Ctrl-Alt-Del was starting a guild on Sentinels that was supposed to be a casual guild with little, if any, raiding. That worked out well until Cataclysm hit. In weeks I saw this guild go from 30+ active players at all times to just one core raiding group. A friend of mine had left to join another casual guild so I went with him and saw the same thing happen: in a matter of weeks the guild went from 30+ players at all times to a core raiding group of 10. Shortly after that they all faction transferred and moved to a horde guild to take advantage of the massive game-breaking racial imbalance that was blatantly evident at the beginning of Cataclysm.

    I had resigned myself to pugging FL trash runs on weekends and hunting meaningless achievements when I joined a Heroic ICC pug for the LOLs. I was so impressed with that raid leader's patience and knowledge that I asked to join his guild. So once again I found myself in a raiding guild despite doing my utmost to stay casual. That's why I have to laugh when people claim that Cata and MoP are aimed at casuals. Hard as I tried I found it impossible to play casually. That's why I'm unsubbed right now and likely will remain so until I see something in the patch notes and/or release that indicates engaging content that doesn't require me to organize my entire life around a game.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-09-11 at 10:48 PM.

  7. #1207
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    While it's true it doesn't show the true interest in raids.
    The statistic includes players who aren't even eligible of entering them, levelers.
    To the extent that the budget for designing a raid is partially or mostly justified by the number of people who experience it this doesn't matter. Especially in an environment where those budgets are expected to get tighter and tighter over time or where there's a great deal of uncertainty.

    If the number of levelers is a lot higher than the number of raiders, the smart business decision may well be to do something for them and less for raiders. Or to do what Blizzard has actually done, make raiding content generally available to anyone who gets to level 90 in the current expansion. That's an incentive, good or bad, to finish leveling.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-09-11 at 10:47 PM.
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  8. #1208
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I do think it's pretty hard core, actually. Casual players generally don't care enough about the game to register on a forum just for the sake of discussing this game that they don't care that much about. I would say that I aspired to be casual and constantly failed at it. First in WotLK I got sucked into a raiding guild by my friends. After a couple of months I was removed from the raiding invite list, despite having been at every raid since joining, because I always marked myself tentative. When I discussed this with the raid leader they said that attendance had gotten so spotty that they were mandating definite attendance. I replied that I would never prioritize a raid over family needs and that I would be happy to be designated an alternative raider and given lower priority, but I was told I would never be invited to raid again. So I quit the guild.

    At about that time, Tim Buckley from Ctrl-Alt-Del was starting a guild on Sentinels that was supposed to be a casual guild with little, if any, raiding. That worked out well until Cataclysm hit. In weeks I saw this guild go from 30+ active players at all times to just one core raiding group. A friend of mine had left to join another casual guild so I went with him and saw the same thing happen: in a matter of weeks the guild went from 30+ players at all times to a core raiding group of 10. Shortly after that they all faction transferred and moved to a horde guild to take advantage of the massive game-breaking racial imbalance that was blatantly evident at the beginning of Cataclysm.

    I had resigned myself to pugging FL trash runs on weekends and hunting meaningless achievements when I joined a Heroic ICC pug for the LOLs. I was so impressed with that raid leader's patience and knowledge that I asked to join his guild. So once again I found myself in a raiding guild despite doing my utmost to stay casual. That's why I have to laugh when people claim that Cata and MoP are aimed at casuals. Hard as I tried I found it impossible to play casually. That's why I'm unsubbed right now and likely will remain so until I see something in the patch notes and/or release that indicates engaging content that doesn't require me to organize my entire life around a game.


    How many people on here will say that they are casual? I see it all the time lol. And I see plenty of "help I'm stuck on horridon" posts and stuff like that in the raid section, not very hardcore. My main point though is, based off of my own experiences and those of many others I know that have been casual, almost every body at some point in the game has raided, even if it wasn't very often.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    It's pretty tiresome whenever someone mentions "1%" or "5%" pertaining to players that saw the instances.

    While it's true it doesn't show the true interest in raids.
    The statistic includes players who aren't even eligible of entering them, levelers.
    Besides this it completely ommits the playerbase that wants to raid or were in the process of reaching the instance but again our metric of acceptable participation is the time it takes for Blizzard to release the next tier which is entirely unfair.

    So the "1%" or "5%" argument is just a hyperbole used at the convenience of the respective topic.
    <3 MMO-C
    Agreed, these statistics always take into account weird stuff like leveler's, and essentially suggests "well since most people don't hit max level, we shouldn't give a lot of content at max level" - this attitude exists in a lot of the games that compete with WoW, and IMO is why many of them end up failing.

  9. #1209
    Oh, enough of this, already. Freaking mods give out infractions like candy, but when people clog up the forums with idiot threads about "casual" this and "casual" that, they sit on their thumbs.

    If you think casuals ruined WoW, go play something else and be done with it.

  10. #1210
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    I always hear "nobody raided" or "almost nobody" or "a minority"... but again, we've yet to see someone on these forums that has admitted to never raiding at all during the game. And I know obviously people that didn't hit max level never raided, but for those of us that stuck with the game, there's some weird fallacy where "only 1% of the people raided" on these forums lol.
    It's pretty simple really...

    Vast majority if not all players who take part in things like fansite forums (such as this one) are far far deeper into the game and can almost certainly be considered to be hardcore gamers. If not now, they were at some point in time. When you ask people like that who are raiding it's only natural you get 100% "yes" response. Real-life comparison would be running a poll in the USA "do you vote for democrats or republicans" in a democrat party meeting... You get nearly 100% "democrat" response.

    The fallacy you're looking for is self-selection bias, an amateur mistake of poll-makers.
    Last edited by vesseblah; 2013-09-11 at 11:06 PM.
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  11. #1211
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    To the extent that the budget for designing a raid is partially or mostly justified by the number of people who experience it this doesn't matter. Especially in an environment where those budgets are expected to get tighter and tighter over time or where there's a great deal of uncertainty.
    There in lies the problem. The budget for raid design is justified by player participation when it shouldn't be. You always need goals for players. The less developed that goal, the less players you have striving for them even casually.

    If the carrot looks awful you'll have less people working for it.
    The importance is not acquisition but motivation. Blizzard's subscription model wants players to stay longer.

    You remove the subscription model and you'll hear me sing a different tune.
    If the number of levelers is a lot higher than the number of raiders, the smart business decision may well be to do something for them and less for raiders. Or to do what Blizzard has actually done, make raiding content generally available to anyone who gets to level 90 in the current expansion. That's an incentive, good or bad, to finish leveling.
    That's debatable. One of the most talked about problems with current MMO's is the end game isn't very well developed.
    You can develop things for the levelers but the issue arises when they've passed it all.

    Leveling, raiding, it doesn't matter where the resources go, it's all meant to keep you playing. Leveling loses out over raids because it has a shorter lifespan and that's sort of important for attracting new comers and raids benefit older players.
    Last edited by DrSteveBrule; 2013-09-12 at 02:14 AM.
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  12. #1212
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    Casual Players didn't ruin WoW. The game hasn't been hard, merely tedious. Think of the rep grind for Pandaville, versus that of TBC or even Wrath. It's not hard to see that the perspective of what a "casual player" is to people, has been altered by Blizzard's time sinks.

    The term casual itself was a juvenile construction, that stuck heavily with WoW's budding playerbase.
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  13. #1213
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    How many people on here will say that they are casual? I see it all the time lol. And I see plenty of "help I'm stuck on horridon" posts and stuff like that in the raid section, not very hardcore. My main point though is, based off of my own experiences and those of many others I know that have been casual, almost every body at some point in the game has raided, even if it wasn't very often.
    So because of the fact that 100% of the people stuck on Horridon have raided and since most of the people you know from your raiding guild(s) have raided you have concluded that most people have raided. You don't see the fallacy in that?

    Most of the people I interacted with prior to Cataclysm had never raided and did not even want to raid. In early Cataclysm those people left. Since then most people I have interacted with have raided, but that's mostly because I generally associated with people in raiding guilds. However, prior to LFR most of the people I pugged dungeons with in Cataclysm had not raided at all. Maybe now most people have raided, but I doubt that many of those people have raided beyond LFR.

  14. #1214
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    WoW was made to be more casual than the current MMOs of the time, mainly EQ, Lineage and FFXI. No death penalty and no grind to hit level cap were the big ones.

    Now repeat after me until you understand: WoW was made to be casual game, WoW was made to be casual game...



    Cataclysm start removed the most casual content which is the change that backfired and caused biggest sub losses. Blue posts have said multiple times and those on this forum with a working set of brains do understand that making normal mode raiding no longer accessible to "friends and family" guilds after WLK and heroic five-man instances no longer viable for LFD randoms was a big mistake.

    The definition of casual in 2005 is vastly different than it is now, so much that it's pointless to say WoW has always been a casual game. If that were true then todays casuals would have no problem playing Vanilla/BC.

    As far as Cata, Cata ADDED the most casual content. Simplified leveling, less things like weapon skill, everything more streamlined.
    I don't even remember anyone asking for Normals to not be 'friends and family guild' friendly. it just sort of happened in Cata. The best thing about WoW was that you could PuG most anything, but they ruined that when they changed the Normal raiding difficulty.
    The 5 man difficulty in the beginning of Cata was honestly right where it needed to be. People would of gotten used to it, they just bitched because at the time most people were undergeared for the dungeons and it was different after coming from the late Wrath heroics.

    Even if the 5 mans were too difficulty, that is no excuse for making them how they have been this entire expansion. You literally don't even need a healer for heroic 5 mans, its a joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post

    Accessibility and casual friendliness compared to their main competition is what worked in first expansions. Going more hardcore way in Cataclysm is what broke the game. It's not the only way to make MMOs for sure, Eve shows you exactly what happens when you make hardcore game.
    Again, Cata wasn't HC...at all. It was super casual but with design mistakes(the mistakes being making Normal raiding too hard). 1 or 2 things in the entire game doesn't make the whole game hardcore.
    Last edited by Dormie; 2013-09-12 at 12:45 AM.

  15. #1215
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    WotLK heroics took an hour and a half for lesser skilled groups at launch and even longer for some in the more difficult ones ignoring the time invested putting groups together and meeting up.

    Yes there was players crying about nothing to do in early Cata. The QQ only intensified months after 4.1 which was released early by delaying the raid launch into another patch to deal with lack of content issues.

    Casual does not equal bad and make them incapable of getting out of a fire or talking with team members. Cata had a lot less endgame available than any previous expansion. The daily grinds was pitiful compared to that of WotLK at launch along with faster leveling and gearing pace. Casuals come in all varieties. Yes it was a road block for those who could not invest at least an hours worth of time while it was more convenient for the weekend warrior types or those who dont have time to play everyday let alone on a schedule. Just because something requires more time investment does not make it more difficult, just less convenient.
    You can call them bads all you wnt, the fact is that during months people didnt complain about having nothing to do, they complained about difficulty, they complained SO MUCH and SO OUD that GC got FORCED to make a blog about it, a blog where he took a similar attitude to yours, telling people to L2P.

    Well, people did what they do when a game doesnt provide content for them and only provides to a small group of players, they left, in millons.

    Cata dungeons were way longer than Wrath ones. You remember wrong.

  16. #1216
    Quote Originally Posted by moremana View Post
    3 things here that do not describe wow.

    Social
    Rewarding
    Captivating

    See what I did there. Those 3 things make a successful game. Wow use to have that.

    So the answer is no, casuals aren't killing wow, Blizzard is.
    Exactly. People used to be addicted to this game. Like, never wanted to get off. That isn't there anymore, and it's because of all the oversimplification/streamlining they have done.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Thats the problem, its the other way around. You are being the blind one here.

    WoW was getting consistently more casual friendly UNTILL Cata. Vanilla was more casual than anything else in the market, TBC was more casual than Vanilla, WotLK more casual than TBC.

    THEN Blizzard changed direction and tried to make Cata more hardcore with the difficulty up in dungeons, and then they tried making MoP more hardcore reintroducing the long grinds and getting the difficulty of raids even higher.

    It is there, when Blizzard tried to cater to tha hardcore that cried that WotLK was too casual when they broke the game.

    Cataclysm and MoP were NOT made for casuals. They are products oriented to the HARDCORE. And that's the main reason of their complete failure.
    OMG how can anyone believe this? Do you play this game? 1 hardcore element does not a hardcore game make. The things you listed were more throwing a bone to the hardcores than anything.
    Last edited by Dormie; 2013-09-12 at 12:55 AM.

  17. #1217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    So because of the fact that 100% of the people stuck on Horridon have raided and since most of the people you know from your raiding guild(s) have raided you have concluded that most people have raided. You don't see the fallacy in that?
    It's a form of confirmation bias and it's rampant on forums where most people tend to believe their opinion is a fact and other opinions are simply wrong. Why? Because most everyone they ever come in contact with in the game is more or less like them. People pay attention to information that agrees with their opinion and ignore or discounts as lies information that challenges preconceived beliefs.

    Going back to relating a few real life things: I don't think anyone in our guild actively follows fansites except for our raid leader and I'm certain that he only visits very specific places relating to his class and raiding strategy videos. Many people had no idea at all what flex raiding even was the week before the patch. Mention the Blizzard forums or those at MMO-C and the reaction is likely to be 'ewwwww' as anything. Like I said earlier, these people are much more representative of who plays the game than most anyone who posts regularly here, especially the people in this thread that have contributed more than three posts.
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  18. #1218
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post

    OMG how can anyone believe this? Do you play this game?
    Yes i do, and i justified it earlier in this thread already.

    WoW was consistently growing when they made the game more casual friendly than before (including vanilla being more casual frienly than any MMO in the market).

    WoW failed miserably in Cata and MoP, the two expansions where they decided to cater for the hardcore.

  19. #1219
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Yes i do, and i justified it earlier in this thread already.

    WoW was consistently growing when they made the game more casual friendly than before (including vanilla being more casual frienly than any MMO in the market).

    WoW failed miserably in Cata and MoP, the two expansions where they decided to cater for the hardcore.
    Except they didn't try to cater to the hardcore in Cata/MoP. Cata is where they streamlined and oversimplified everything FOR THE CASUALS. Again, just because a few things take more time doesn't mean the whole expansion was aimed at hardcores.
    Cata/MoP is just Wrath taken to the extreme, Wrath is where they should of drawn the line on the casualization. The problem now is that the game is trying to be both casual and hardcore, which obviously doesn't work.

  20. #1220
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Except they didn't try to cater to the hardcore in Cata/MoP. Cata is where they streamlined and oversimplified everything FOR THE CASUALS. Again, just because a few things take more time doesn't mean the whole expansion was aimed at hardcores.
    Cata/MoP is just Wrath taken to the extreme, Wrath is where they should of drawn the line on the casualization. The problem now is that the game is trying to be both casual and hardcore, which obviously doesn't work.
    Oversimplified? No, it wasnt. Cataclysm was made HARD for the hardcore players that cried during Wrath. They cried so much that they destroyed WoW, by making Blizzard do the stupid decision to cater for them for two expansions, two failed ones.

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