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  1. #1201
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    WotLK heroics took an hour and a half for a number of groups at launch and even longer for some in the more difficult ones ignoring the time invested putting groups together and meeting up.
    Fortunately, one hardly had to gear up in Wrath heroics before being able to down the easier bosses in Naxx.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  2. #1202
    Hahaha, does RJL seriously think raiding was ever anything but a small minority participation hobby?

  3. #1203
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Wrong, Cata reduced the time spent in grinds but basically negated any dungeon to any casual that didnt have an hour and a half.

    Almost no one was crying that there wasnt anything to do in Cata untill they released only two dungeons in six months.

    Cata didnt went too casual, Cata was the first time in WoW's history where Blizzard changed direction and instead of making the expansion more casual friendly they did it LESS casual friendly. They took dungeons away from a lot of people only to give them to the elitist hardcore group, which of course wasnt sattisfied (they never were, they werent sattisfied in TBC either, even when now with rose tinted glasses they say they are. I was there in TBC where hardcores were saying that Blizzard had dumbed down the game too far).
    They arent satisfied now with the harder than ever normal raids and the long grinds.

    The difficulty WAS the bigger issue, and it was the issue that lost the most subs to Blizzard.
    i agree difficulty was the issue.. when I and my friends and family have to decide kick a friend or loved one out or not progress.. then we will stop where we are and probably be unsubscribed within months. there were no mechanics to help struggling players get past difficult encounters. there was no where to go to get gear, or buffs that helped the ones who struggled. the one dungeon that had them (ICC) had them was demonized and said it was to easy.. anything to make people feel that their time spent was wasted.

    frankly HC needs to be abandoned its created a huge rift in the player base that's being exaggerated as all the better players gravitate into guilds that are capable of doing them. either that or give the players more tools to conquer their challenges when they hit a road block.

  4. #1204
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Fortunately, one hardly had to gear up in Wrath heroics before being able to down the easier bosses in Naxx.
    Which still a minority raided and that was 10 man Naxx which was tuned closer to normal mode dungeon levels. Raiding was not much of a concern for the majority even when it was at its easiest.

  5. #1205
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    WotLK heroics took an hour and a half for lesser skilled groups at launch and even longer for some in the more difficult ones ignoring the time invested putting groups together and meeting up.

    Yes there was players crying about nothing to do in early Cata. The QQ only intensified months after 4.1 which was released early by delaying the raid launch into another patch to deal with lack of content issues.

    Casual does not equal bad and make them incapable of getting out of a fire or talking with team members. Cata had a lot less endgame available than any previous expansion. The daily grinds was pitiful compared to that of WotLK at launch along with faster leveling and gearing pace. Casuals come in all varieties. Yes it was a road block for those who could not invest at least an hours worth of time while it was more convenient for the weekend warrior types or those who dont have time to play everyday let alone on a schedule. Just because something requires more time investment does not make it more difficult, just less convenient.

    Their were SOME players qqing about nothing to do. I would submit not the casual players. Casual does not equal bad but often casual players don't have the commitment to become better or basically don't even want to. I mean they tried to bring easy time consuming content back in mists with daily quests but look at how that meshogoes worked out. In this instance it's one example where it's far better to ere on the side of caution. If it means that hardcore players (in terms of time consumption) have to have 3 or 4 alts who cares. These are people who play 20+ hours a week, are ultimately addicted to the game and will do it on alts anyway and to be frank it's not sustainable to support their play style anyway. While the bored no content feedback may have been persistent it probably was not universal and very wide spread. You can see why they acted on it but well it was terrible that they did. Or that they refused to listen in beta when players told them in beta this sucks balls.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 09:30 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #1206
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No I don't agree. LVLING was the end game for people. Raiding could not serve as end game for most people because IT DIDN'T. We know this as a fact. Since so few people ACTUALLY PARTICIPATED in the act. It's utterly fucking asinine to say well raiding kept people entertained and subscribed at max lvl WHEN NEXT TO NOBODY FUCKING RAIDED.
    I didn't realize people considered leveling as end game once they hit max level -_-

    Ok, what do you suggest a player did back then after max level? In my personal experience, everyone I knew did dungeons and some raided. There was only 1 guy who was obsessed at obtaining all BS recipe and BS crafting was his end game (but even he was doign dungeons).

    Ultimately, I would say VAST AMOUNT of players did dungeons and raids as their end game. I do not for a second buy the idea that most people didn't in fact touch dungeons or raids. Where are you even getting this "fact" from?

    Why don't you clarify your "multifaceted" end game of WoW that kept players subbed month after month after max level? In your experience, what did people focus their time on besides dungeons and raids? You think millions of people simply leveled alts after alts?
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  7. #1207
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    Hahaha, does RJL seriously think raiding was ever anything but a small minority participation hobby?

    So you never raided? lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by McTurbo View Post
    i agree difficulty was the issue.. when I and my friends and family have to decide kick a friend or loved one out or not progress..


    Why would you take these people to the raids if you know they can't handle them? My sister doesn't play wow, but if she did, I wouldn't do arena with her lol. Doesn't mean you still can't do other stuff with them and have fun.

  8. #1208
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Leveling is the end game..... the statement itself is self contradictory.
    Not really. You're defining what you view as 'end game' as the end game for everyone. I would submit that for people who principally do PVP their end game doesn't really fit into your definition of end game and wouldn't suit them at all. So too, those who don't bother with raid content at any level. They have a different end game, one that is personal to them. And no one should condescend or laugh about it. It's a substantial group of people.
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  9. #1209
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Not really. You're defining what you view as 'end game' as the end game for everyone. I would submit that for people who principally do PVP their end game doesn't really fit into your definition of end game and wouldn't suit them at all. So too, those who don't bother with raid content at any level. They have a different end game, one that is personal to them. And no one should condescend or laugh about it. It's a substantial group of people.
    My point I was trying to argue here is that typically "end game" is the term used once you are done leveling. As for people that PvP, many of them do it at max level as well - there are definitely twinks out there, but how many of them don't have a max level alt? I love lowbie BG's though, I have leveled a few toons just to do them.
    That being said, how many people do you know that level an alt to max level, do nothing with it, and then roll a new alt? If it's because they don't like the stuff at max level.... chances are they wouldn't like the stuff they do while leveling too.

  10. #1210
    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    Let's go over some things to what makes gear upgrades feel good and fun and thus driving people to pay 15 a month:

    1. You feel your power increasing when you can kill things faster
    2. An obstacle that you could not beat before is now possible
    3. Perhaps you enjoy the gear's look
    4. You do things that you think is fun while getting new gears
    5. There is enough activities to do so you aren't out of content
    I can accept this as a primary driver for subscriptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    Raids match these points while making each iteration feel new and fresh.
    I agree with this too.

    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    Sadly to say, there is currently no other system that provide a new and fresh experience while obtaining gear patch after patch.
    I would amend that to be "... no other system in the game at this time ..." This is the problem with the game right now. It's raid or be bored.

    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    If you don't believe raiding is the lure, what do you think is the factor(s) that keep players paying?
    Challenging five mans that don't rely on FYAD mechanics as a crutch to providing challenges. That's what the game has been missing since WotLK. Raiders will argue that it was one big AoEfest, and maybe it was in raid gear. For the common player, however, the content was engaging. If you mostly ran with non-raiders in blues and some greens the content was challenging but not so challenging that players would quit in frustration. We don't have that anymore. We have the same six new heroics and the same three recycled ones as we had when the expansion first released, and that's it. When the expansion was first released you were [i]guaranteed[i] to repeat heroics if you ran one every day for over ten days, even in the best case. By the end of WotLK I had sixteen to pick from, so I could, in the best case, run one heroic a day for over two weeks without repeating one.

  11. #1211
    problem is rick your interpreting what he's saying to what you want it to mean.. I think that's why they are arguing so much. in the end he's right.. raiding is a minority sport..

  12. #1212
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Perhaps you bought the game because of the night elf on the cover, but I can tell you that there's a pretty big fan base for blizzard and their name has gotten by on word of mouth for almost 2 decades now. Stuff like raiding is *why* blizzard gets word of mouth publicity from fans, they were (not so much now) known for going the extra mile in every game. It's changed quite a bit over the last year or so with the "re-use content to save money" thing, but back in the day, it was dramatically different.
    I can honestly say that all word of mouth regarding raiding that I have ever heard in real life has been negative. I've never heard anyone in real life brag about raiding. All the former players I have spoken to refer to raiding as either causing them to leave or preventing them from going back. Word of mouth cuts both ways.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    If raiding has had low participation, then who here has never raided before Cata?
    We're discussing WoW on a WoW fan site. Of course most of us here have raided before. We're hardly representative of the entire WoW population.

  13. #1213
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I can honestly say that all word of mouth regarding raiding that I have ever heard in real life has been negative. I've never heard anyone in real life brag about raiding. All the former players I have spoken to refer to raiding as either causing them to leave or preventing them from going back. Word of mouth cuts both ways.

    - - - Updated - - -


    We're discussing WoW on a WoW fan site. Of course most of us here have raided before. We're hardly representative of the entire WoW population.


    You say many here have raided before, but I'm sure there's many that would call themselves casual. And if raiding is a very "hardcore thing that only a small minority ever did" then I'm sure you'd agree that there would be at least a few whom spoke up and said "I never did it". I don't think MMO is that hard core, do you?



    As for the raiding thing, sounds like we've heard very different things. Have you played any of the older wow games though? Awesome RTS games that consisted of building massive armies and duking it out on the battle field - pretty much what raiding is. I'm not saying everyone loves raiding, but it's definitely a huge draw for the game. If they didn't have it, there's a lot of people that wouldn't play because of it, or at least for as long.

  14. #1214
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    If raiding has had low participation, then who here has never raided before Cata?
    A minority even with a 30% buff to players only a minority raided and a minority of that cleared the whole raid despite how long it was out. It wouldnt have mattered if T11 was Naxx 2.0 difficulty which did have one shot mechanics along with those where one person could wipe a group, there still would had been a minority raiding and many of those realms which had troubled raiding populations still would have done shitty and failed to kill a boss like KT.

  15. #1215
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    A minority even with a 30% buff to players only a minority raided and a minority of that cleared the whole raid despite how long it was out. It wouldnt have mattered if T11 was Naxx 2.0 difficulty which did have one shot mechanics along with those where one person could wipe a group, there still would had been a minority raiding and many of those realms which had troubled raiding populations still would have done shitty and failed to kill a boss like KT.


    I always hear "nobody raided" or "almost nobody" or "a minority"... but again, we've yet to see someone on these forums that has admitted to never raiding at all during the game. And I know obviously people that didn't hit max level never raided, but for those of us that stuck with the game, there's some weird fallacy where "only 1% of the people raided" on these forums lol.

  16. #1216
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    My point I was trying to argue here is that typically "end game" is the term used once you are done leveling. As for people that PvP, many of them do it at max level as well - there are definitely twinks out there, but how many of them don't have a max level alt? I love lowbie BG's though, I have leveled a few toons just to do them.
    That being said, how many people do you know that level an alt to max level, do nothing with it, and then roll a new alt? If it's because they don't like the stuff at max level.... chances are they wouldn't like the stuff they do while leveling too.
    I know. And there are people that say the game doesn't begin until 90. That's not true for everyone and I believe that the group of people that you dismiss are much larger than you would believe. As are the group of people who log on for 2-5 hours a week. For them, leveling alts, running a dungeon or two, pet battles are fine. I understand that you don't believe this but there's plenty of evidence from Blizzard that supports it, a lot of it dismissed as lies (even though there's no particular bonus for Blizzard in not telling the truth). I do a little bit of normal raiding--only a little and mostly as a sub because my travel schedule doesn't allow me to always be there consistently--and it's rare for me to be in the game more than five hours a week. Usually a couple of hours on a weeknight and a few hours on weekends.

    Too many people have their entire view of how people actually experience the game colored by forum chatter.

    To answer one of your questions specifically, there are at least 4 people in my guild (that I know of) that level alts on a constant basis, run dungeons and never bother to sign up for raid night. Three of them principally do PVP. One of them is seen only on weekends. The raiding they do when they bother with it at all is to solo old raids for transmog gear. It's not really a large guild. I would be surprised if there are more than 30 accounts total with a group of about 15-20 accounts that are more active than the rest. There are more of these kinds of players than you realize.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-09-11 at 10:09 PM.
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  17. #1217
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    If you really don't want to do stuff at the max level in WoW.... maybe wow isn't your game, have you considered that before?
    YES. And so has Blizzard. That's what they're trying to change. Many players on this forum are sympathetic to your view, saying, "Good. If you don't want to raid you don't belong in my game!!!" Blizzard takes the opposite view because they want as many people as possible to continue playing their game for as long as possible so they can make as much money off subscriptions as possible. That's why it's not in their best interest to cater exclusively to the hardcore. Their response has been to dumb down raids in the hopes of making them attractive to the majority, but it's not working because, as Glorious Leader and I keep pointing out, casual players don't like raids, never wanted them, and still don't want them.

    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    I say LFR should be taken out of the game
    You don't like LFR and I don't like LFR. Some players, however, do like LFR, and it's cheap for Blizzard to make and maintain. Why do you want to remove it? I don't like PvP or pet battles, but I'm not calling for those to be removed either. Just because a game has content you don't enjoy doesn't mean it should be removed. Different strokes for different folks, etc.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-09-11 at 10:13 PM.

  18. #1218
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I know. And there are people that say the game doesn't begin until 90. That's not true for everyone and I believe that the group of people that you dismiss are much larger than you would believe. As are the group of people who log on for 2-5 hours a week. For them, leveling alts, running a dungeon or two, pet battles are fine. I understand that you don't believe this but there's plenty of evidence from Blizzard that supports it, a lot of it dismissed as lies (even though there's no particular bonus for Blizzard in not telling the truth). I do a little bit of normal raiding--only a little and mostly as a sub because my travel schedule doesn't allow me to always be there consistently--and it's rare for me to be in the game more than five hours a week. Usually a couple of hours on a weeknight and a few hours on weekends.

    Too many people have their entire view of how people actually experience the game colored by forum chatter.

    To answer one of your questions specifically, there are at least 4 people in my guild (that I know of) that level alts on a constant basis, run dungeons and never bother to sign up for raid night. Three of them principally do PVP. One of them is seen only on weekends. The raiding they do when they bother with it at all is to solo old raids for transmog gear. It's not really a large guild. I would be surprised if there are more than 30 accounts total with a group of about 15-20 accounts that are more active than the rest. There are more of these kinds of players than you realize.


    I don't exactly dismiss people that hit max level and then never play that toon (or extremely rarely), but I just don't see many of those people that exist. Glorious leader was implying this was a regular thing - I almost never saw this and I've been playing since launch lol. It sounds contradictory that they enjoyed the grind to 90, when there's plenty of stuff at 90 that's just the same. People can still quest if they like it, dungeons, 5 mans, etc. All that stuff is still there.



    I can't put my finger on it, but I'm imagining some of the people on here feel like guys that raided were mean to them or treated them unfairly, and that's where a lot of this debate stems from. As for the PvP'ers in the guild, they are enjoying their form of content, and like anyone else, not saying it's wrong to enjoy what they enjoy, and there's definitely a lot of other people that just PvP without doing PvE (I used to be one of them many times over lol). But anyways, have these dudes that PvP now *never* raided a dungeon before? Or do they just choose not to raid right now? There's a big difference between "I used to raid, but don't now" and "I never raided".... we're getting a lot of people saying people never raided, when I think it's a lot more likely that they did raid at some points in time, but probably not *all* the time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    YES. And so has Blizzard. That's what they're trying to change. Many players on this forum are sympathetic to your view, saying, "Good. If you don't want to raid you don't belong in my game!!!" Blizzard takes the opposite view because they want as many people as possible to continue playing their game for as long as possible so they can make as much money off subscriptions as possible. That's why it's not in their best interest to cater exclusively to the hardcore. Their response has been to dumb down raids in the hopes of making them attractive to the majority, but it's not working because, as Glorious Leader and I keep pointing out, casual players don't like raids, never wanted them, and still don't want them.


    You don't like LFR and I don't like LFR. Some players, however, do like LFR, and it's cheap for Blizzard to make and maintain. Why do you want to remove it? I don't like PvP or pet battles, but I'm not calling for those to be removed either. Just because a game has content you don't enjoy doesn't mean it should be removed. Different strokes for different folks, etc.

    My point about blizz trying to appease these people is, if they don't like wow, maybe just let them leave? Because in the process, they change the game so much to please those types that it's not as fun as it used to be for those that liked the original wow in the first place. I know it sounds mean like that, but for example, if I don't like first person shooters, I wouldn't buy a first person shooter, then go on that game's forums, and ask for the developers to change certain aspects of it. And yes, there are a lot of people that don't like raiding, I would strongly recommend a different game, I'm not trying to sound like a jerk (seriously), but Wow is always going to have a strong element of raiding in it.


    As for LFR, I'm saying, and I'm sure you may agree, but for different reasons, LFR is not really a fun game and doesn't deliver on a lot of the experiences that make wow great in the first place. STuff like challenges, socialization, and progression, are really not in LFR. The game has given casuals fun content before, they can do it again. I'm definitely not saying just take it out and don't give them anything, but give them the wow experience, don't give them a half baked raid.

  19. #1219
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    I always hear "nobody raided" or "almost nobody" or "a minority"... but again, we've yet to see someone on these forums that has admitted to never raiding at all during the game. And I know obviously people that didn't hit max level never raided, but for those of us that stuck with the game, there's some weird fallacy where "only 1% of the people raided" on these forums lol.
    It's pretty tiresome whenever someone mentions "1%" or "5%" pertaining to players that saw the instances.

    While it's true it doesn't show the true interest in raids.
    The statistic includes players who aren't even eligible of entering them, levelers.
    Besides this it completely ommits the playerbase that wants to raid or were in the process of reaching the instance but again our metric of acceptable participation is the time it takes for Blizzard to release the next tier which is entirely unfair.

    So the "1%" or "5%" argument is just a hyperbole used at the convenience of the respective topic.
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  20. #1220
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    You say many here have raided before, but I'm sure there's many that would call themselves casual. And if raiding is a very "hardcore thing that only a small minority ever did" then I'm sure you'd agree that there would be at least a few whom spoke up and said "I never did it". I don't think MMO is that hard core, do you?
    I do think it's pretty hard core, actually. Casual players generally don't care enough about the game to register on a forum just for the sake of discussing this game that they don't care that much about. I would say that I aspired to be casual and constantly failed at it. First in WotLK I got sucked into a raiding guild by my friends. After a couple of months I was removed from the raiding invite list, despite having been at every raid since joining, because I always marked myself tentative. When I discussed this with the raid leader they said that attendance had gotten so spotty that they were mandating definite attendance. I replied that I would never prioritize a raid over family needs and that I would be happy to be designated an alternative raider and given lower priority, but I was told I would never be invited to raid again. So I quit the guild.

    At about that time, Tim Buckley from Ctrl-Alt-Del was starting a guild on Sentinels that was supposed to be a casual guild with little, if any, raiding. That worked out well until Cataclysm hit. In weeks I saw this guild go from 30+ active players at all times to just one core raiding group. A friend of mine had left to join another casual guild so I went with him and saw the same thing happen: in a matter of weeks the guild went from 30+ players at all times to a core raiding group of 10. Shortly after that they all faction transferred and moved to a horde guild to take advantage of the massive game-breaking racial imbalance that was blatantly evident at the beginning of Cataclysm.

    I had resigned myself to pugging FL trash runs on weekends and hunting meaningless achievements when I joined a Heroic ICC pug for the LOLs. I was so impressed with that raid leader's patience and knowledge that I asked to join his guild. So once again I found myself in a raiding guild despite doing my utmost to stay casual. That's why I have to laugh when people claim that Cata and MoP are aimed at casuals. Hard as I tried I found it impossible to play casually. That's why I'm unsubbed right now and likely will remain so until I see something in the patch notes and/or release that indicates engaging content that doesn't require me to organize my entire life around a game.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-09-11 at 10:48 PM.

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