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  1. #1281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    It may be irrelevant why they didn't raid, but the point is that they were still playing either way. So obviously not everyone was as bothered as people seem to be about raiding.
    And a dead server is a dead server, that's Blizz's problem that they should fix, not design the game around.
    The conditions that existed for Blizzard to make raids for such tiny minorities no longer exist. Actually in reality they weren't still playing. They were quitting by and large and just being replaced at a better rate than they are now. In addition to this the replacements that came in basically were starting out at lvling, they were not at max lvl and not needing max level entertainment. You literally cannot unwind this. UNless you do some kind of latter reset their are too many casual players at max level who need to be entertained. If the developers are going to continue to make raids then the needs of those players to be entertained will demand lfr.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #1282
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The conditions that existed for Blizzard to make raids for such tiny minorities no longer exist. Actually in reality they weren't still playing. They were quitting by and large and just being replaced at a better rate than they are now. In addition to this the replacements that came in basically were starting out at lvling, they were not at max lvl and not needing max level entertainment. You literally cannot unwind this. UNless you do some kind of latter reset their are too many casual players at max level who need to be entertained. If the developers are going to continue to make raids then the needs of those players to be entertained will demand lfr.
    And I would have 0 problems with LFR if it were normal difficulty(and if normal difficulty was that of Wraths).
    When you can just walk in and push over Garrosh/Deathwing, it completely trivializes the lore and build up of those characters.
    Keep in mind that when I talk about LFR/heroic 5 man difficulty being too easy, I'm a healer. I see the healthbars. In the 5 mans the healthbars barely budge, and in LFR they go down for about 15 seconds, in which time all you do is spam your AoE heals.
    It is braindead gameplay, and SHOULD be unacceptable in a game with WoWs reputation.

  3. #1283
    I've never really understood the arguments that casual players ruined the game. I don't feel it's ruined, personally. If someone is so "casual" that they don't want to do LFR, dailies, etc, then they don't have to. If someone is so "hardcore" that they want to do the hardest difficulty of raids, then they can do so. The system can be improved, but this is the best way for everyone to get as close to what they want as possible...at least I see it that way.

    And as far as who to blame, don't blame players that have a different play style than yourself. Voice your concerns to Blizzard, who decided to let more people raid, and make more "casual" things to do throughout this entire expansion. They were the ones who implemented LFR - not casual players. They were the ones that chose to let more people see raids - not casual players. They were the ones who designed every expansion - not casual players. I, personally, see no major problems, just some things that could be tweaked a little. I like how things are now, for the most part. But I try to mind my own business, and I have fun in my own way that doesn't affect other people - basically caring only what I do, not others.
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  4. #1284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    And I would have 0 problems with LFR if it were normal difficulty(and if normal difficulty was that of Wraths).
    When you can just walk in and push over Garrosh/Deathwing, it completely trivializes the lore and build up of those characters.
    Keep in mind that when I talk about LFR/heroic 5 man difficulty being too easy, I'm a healer. I see the healthbars. In the 5 mans the healthbars barely budge, and in LFR they go down for about 15 seconds, in which time all you do is spam your AoE heals.
    It is braindead gameplay, and SHOULD be unacceptable in a game with WoWs reputation.
    I have zero problems with them getting rid of lfr entirely. Honestly. If that means raiding goes out the window or gets severly cut back and reduced. Okay. Good.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #1285
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I have zero problems with them getting rid of lfr entirely. Honestly. If that means raiding goes out the window or gets severly cut back and reduced. Okay. Good.
    WoW wouldn't last a day without a sound raiding foundation.

  6. #1286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    WoW wouldn't last a day without a sound raiding foundation.
    Considering how few people actually did raiding I'm not sure how anybody actually thinks this is true. The mere implementation of lfr should suggest to you that the developers have to take EXTRAORDINARY steps to make that content relevant to people.

    Oddly enough though the developers probably share that sentiment. That's EXACTLY why lfr was introduced. Without it raiding or raid content would become really weak sauce.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-13 at 05:29 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #1287
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Considering how few people actually did raiding I'm not sure how anybody actually thinks this is true. The mere implementation of lfr should suggest to you that the developers have to take EXTRAORDINARY steps to make that content relevant to people.

    Oddly enough though the developers probably share that sentiment. That's EXACTLY why lfr was introduced. Without it raiding or raid content would become really weak sauce.
    And what do you think will replace it? LFR is peoples way of getting their raiding fix, if there's no raids there's no LFR.

  8. #1288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    And what do you think will replace it? LFR is peoples way of getting their raiding fix, if there's no raids there's no LFR.
    *shrug* something obviously. LFR isn't about getting a raiding fix, it's about getting their character progression fix. Don't confuse the two. People aren't necessarilly ineterested in but we know they are interested in chasing gear and subsequently anything that could possible serve to draw people away from lfr (either content or reward) has to be neutered. If raiding goes and so does lfr they'd simple put the reward behind some other play style, maybe dungeons or something new they invent. I mean theirs no law of nature that says raiding has to be. They hyper focus on raiding sucks and is primarily done out of economic interest. Granted long term the whole skinner box thing is probably not very good (although you can make the case wow has always been about that)but we'll how many of you would do heroic raids if their was no gear behind it?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #1289
    Casuals didnt ruin WoW, blizzard did. Imo it was by features like LFR or random dungeons etc where they took out the need for the community aspect of the game.
    I would give this to the TBC the time when I started playing and by this the game completly consumed me - which was awesome by that time - and it was by the sole
    need for community and teamplay, good behaviour in /2 etc if you wanted to achieve something etc.
    But with features like LFR or random dungeon all this is gone, you dont need to know anyone outside your guild and you just push a button and play with people you will propably never meet again. I guess you can guess the rest by yourselves.
    I understand these are stepping stones for smoother transitions into normal raids, but still..

  10. #1290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    And what do you think will replace it? LFR is peoples way of getting their raiding fix, if there's no raids there's no LFR.
    How about this? Instead of three tiers of raids over the course of a year you would get somewhere in the neighborhood of nearly 30 additional dungeons: normal, heroic, something in the difficulty neighborhood of a CM dungeon and something with scalable technology like flex that will run from 3-10 players. Planned to be released sequentially one new dungeon every two weeks with story arcs across sets of dungeons, etc. Alternate weeks would feature a new scenario in both normal/heroic difficulties that would also scale from 3-10 players or even more I suppose. The scenarios would support the story arcs in the dungeons as well as telling additional stories. That would be the instanced content.

    It took me exactly two minutes to come up with that idea. I'm sure Blizzard--if they desired to--could think of even better ideas. Something like that would probably take a lot of the sting out of not having raids around for those who don't partake in normal/heroic raiding.

    Not that Blizzard would ever do this because raids are a signature thing about WoW. But that sort of MMO expansion design--which Blizzard is entirely capable of doing--would have some legs.

    Something like that would tend to engage people, especially 'casual' players (whatever they are), in a way they might not be now.How many MMO's of different types are talking about releasing content on a bi-weekly or monthly basis? This model of content release--even if not specifically my idea--is the next big thing.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-09-13 at 06:08 AM.
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  11. #1291
    Quote Originally Posted by I make people mad View Post
    They even admit the hardcore thing in Cata was a complete disaster and even better hahaha because of It's name ''Cataclysm'' :P

    Except that cata wasn't hardcore. The game never was and most likely never will be.
    Quote Originally Posted by laserguns View Post
    But do they have data showing how much fun players are having? Because surely that's what counts. You could have a game where only 1% of players can do the top raid but still everybody's having fun, and you could have a game where 100% of the players see everything but they're all bored and whining and quitting. Fun can't be quantified with straight-up data, and trying to use statistics to measure fun is a dangerous logical minefield.
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  12. #1292
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrno View Post
    Except that cata wasn't hardcore. The game never was and most likely never will be.
    It was more hardcore than previous expansion WLK, that's the problem.

    WoW's difficulty did not turn down with WLK like some forum trolls like to think (and claim). Instead it was on steady downward curve from launch in 2004 and turned up with Cataclysm.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  13. #1293
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    How about this? Instead of three tiers of raids over the course of a year you would get somewhere in the neighborhood of nearly 30 additional dungeons: normal, heroic, something in the difficulty neighborhood of a CM dungeon and something with scalable technology like flex that will run from 3-10 players. Planned to be released sequentially one new dungeon every two weeks with story arcs across sets of dungeons, etc. Alternate weeks would feature a new scenario in both normal/heroic difficulties that would also scale from 3-10 players or even more I suppose. The scenarios would support the story arcs in the dungeons as well as telling additional stories. That would be the instanced content.
    Dungeons. Raids. You guys seriously overestimate the difference.

    But the difference is Raids last longer, or, are suppose to.
    With dungeons, you'd have to gate them again which no one likes.

    I'm actually not opposed to this idea for two reasons: LFR and Flex.

    With LFR and Flex you kind of defeat the purpose of lasting end game content.
    The amount of dungeons needed to cover a raid tier would've been quite a few but now that players can limp dick the final boss in the face while blindfolded it may only require 3 or 4 dungeons.
    "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills." - Mugatu

  14. #1294
    Casuals didn't "ruin" the game and I have nothing whatsoever against them, I'm sure they have things to do in life that are more important than a video game. Blizzard ruined their own game by catering to them, while keeping really no drive for hardcore players.

  15. #1295
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    A casual player can raid. It's not impossible. It's not even impractical.
    A bad player can't raid and that's what you're saying.
    A casual player doesn't want to set aside the time to raid. That's what you won't understand. Of course they can raid! Anyone can raid. A casual player can't (or won't) regularly allocate a solid 2-4 hour block of time that they devote exclusively to the freaking game, and that's what is required to raid effectively. What's so hard to understand about that? It's not about ability. It's about desire. You say "bothered to get better" as if raiding were some sort of magical self-improvement program that everyone should aspire to. It's not. My entire argument was the PvE content for casual players (or anyone else for that matter) is raiding and casuals generally don't like to raid. Not because they're morons (that was your claim, not mine). Not because they are unskilled. Not because they can't. It's because they want to play casually and raiding is not a casual activity. Any activity where I have to focus exclusively on the game for more than 30 minutes at a time is not casual. I'll tell you what. You go into a raid and 30 minutes in tell the group that you have to AFK for about 20 minutes and see how long it takes to be /kicked. See if you get invited back again.

  16. #1296
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharein View Post


    I actually think that raiders have ruined WoW, with their constant complaining and demanding Blizzard to cater the game and all its content to them and them alone.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Quote Originally Posted by Abysal View Post

    The only thing "destroying" WoW is time.

    As time goes on:
    -There is less and less to add to the game.
    -The experience is less "fresh" and more "stale" for everyone playing it
    -The engine and graphics fall farther and farther behind their potential
    -There's less lore that hasn't already been added to the game causing more "out of their ass" lore to be added to the game
    -Players who've been playing for a long time have higher and higher standards about how good everyone should be which leads to:
    -New players fall farther behind growing more and more intimidated to even interact with anyone else for fear of being trashed for being a "noob"
    -Aging player base (WoW isn't as exciting for someone 14 years old today as it was 9 years ago for reasons already listed and more). As player base ages a growing percentage of the players get full time jobs, families, or just grow out of gaming.

    Time is the reason WoW's subs are declining, above and beyond anything else and there is absolutely nothing Blizz can do to stop it. They can slow it down a little maybe if they make the right decisions, but nothing will change the fact that this game is old and we've already done the Illidan and Arthas storylines that were so popular back in the day.
    I just cant understand how people still think this way. Claiming time is the thing causing the drop on subscription of WoW.
    Wow has the best world, resources, money and constant updates of any of other game out there in the market. Its not a matter of time people...

    I still want to level up an alt in the new "after Cataclysm" world that Blizzard created but I want to do it in an environment where people are doing the same thing I am. I just cant level up while the world is ABSOLUTLY empty and no one is roaming and living the experiences of the outworld, only queuing up in LFG. Just watch youtube channels like wowcrendor and company...the guy has a "level up in the world" experience and in EVERY video he is alone doing quests all by himself...its so lonely and boring and its not a rewarding experience like it used to be. In the old days at least people leveled up on the outworld at least until level 30/ 40 (Stranglethorn levels and such). Everytime I decided to create an alt and level up I ended up adding people to my friend list and encounter the opposing faction and living experiences and adventures that NO SCRIPTED MECHANIC can ever recreate for me.

    I still think Blizzard can create an environment where people and players can create their own adventures and don't focus so much on content and scripted events. Hell, my best moments where passed with people and not "content" I still cant understand what makes people want to see 100% of the content when world of warcraft has never been about that...its about the experience and adventures and the search of rare rewards that only a few people can get.
    And once you get it...you feel an amazing feeling.
    Last edited by Shadowpunkz; 2013-09-14 at 08:52 PM.

  17. #1297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowpunkz View Post
    I just cant understand how people still think this way. Claiming time is the thing causing the drop on subscription of WoW.
    Any product sales (or, in this case, subscriptions) drop after a while. It's called product life cycle.
    Plus, no one said that time is THE only thing causing drops in subs. There are other factors, such as the competition from F2P games and screwups made in early Cata and early MOP, just to name two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowpunkz View Post
    Wow has the best world, resources, money and constant updates of any of other game out there in the market.
    Which is why it has the luxury of being one of the very few sub-based MMOs still on the market. And have a huge chunk of the market at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowpunkz View Post
    I still want to level up an alt in the new "after Cataclysm" world that Blizzard created but I want to do it in an environment where people are doing the same thing I am. I just cant level up while the world is ABSOLUTLY empty and no one is roaming and living the experiences of the outworld, only queuing up in LFG.
    The problems is that people are no longer leveling, period. They already have a bunch of alts they levelled a while ago, and they won't be starting new ones. And there are very few new players coming to the game, because of the finance and time barrier of getting 1-90 (and all the game boxes). It is much simpler to go play a crap F2P game, then complain about it.

  18. #1298
    I think this thread shows that more than anything, people thinking they know more than Blizzard about how to design Blizzard's game and how it should work ruined WoW. It has nothing to do with casuals, or elitists, or any of that bull. It's the community, getting their panties all in a bunch because Blizzard won't make the game exactly the way they want Blizzard to, and instead of just moving on and finding something that fits their needs better, they spend day after day whinging about it on an internet forum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jewbacca View Post
    The reply was not from a tired employee or something. It was an automatic response from an email bot. So it's a grammatical error in their email template. Blizzard can not into English.

  19. #1299
    Blizzard ruined the Game because they casualised the Game until it was unplayable. They removed every complex part and that removed alot of fun. And all these Retard-Finder things were the deathblow to the Game. Right now you can level solo from 1-90 no problem. You don't have to communicate with a another person.
    And the worst part is that this were all unneeded changes. Casuals had enough to do in TBC and most of them liked TBC way more than Casualysm and Pandaland.

  20. #1300
    Quote Originally Posted by Baatun View Post
    Blizzard ruined the Game because they casualised the Game until it was unplayable. They removed every complex part and that removed alot of fun. And all these Retard-Finder things were the deathblow to the Game.
    This is utterly wrong. The end game content can be as complex and as difficult as it has ever been, if you don't restrict yourself to lower difficulty modes.

    If anythnig, the game has been damaged by attempting to cater to the upper fringe of the player curve for too long.

    I was amused by this comment:

    Right now you can level solo from 1-90 no problem.
    The only difference between now and vanilla is that "60" became "90" (and it takes slightly less time). It was never the case that one couldn't solo to level cap with "no problem".

    Casuals had enough to do in TBC and most of them liked TBC way more than Casualysm and Pandaland.
    Lots of casuals left due to BC. Lots of new players were coming in to balance them out. That supply of fresh marks for the ponzi scheme has dried up.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

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