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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by madrox View Post
    When one of the definitions of difficult is "requires more effort" I think its very appropriate in it's usage. "time-consuming" is more of contraction detailing a specific flavour of difficulty rather than being a separate entity.
    Time-consuming describes things like farming very precisely. People are throwing around the word "difficult" because of it's imprecise nature trying to obfuscate the truth that there is nothing mentally challenging or requiring manual dexterity (two attributes that are most often associated with something being difficult) in most of WoW content of olden days. In nine cases out of ten it was purely time-consuming, not difficult.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  2. #182
    I am Murloc! Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDougieM View Post
    WoW is still an amazing game and nothing out there comes even close, sadly through time and life restraints I've not been a regular raider since Wrath...doesn't change the fact that I still enjoy and love the game...the game is older, people are older and can't commit enough time to the game...that is why subs dropped, no fault in the game
    I hear this "Players are older now" crap so much it's almost become a staple in every thread when Blizzard loses subs, you do realize a lot of WoW players have been adults with jobs right? Heck I am 33 (Unsubbed because I think the game has turned to rubbish and now play FF 14: A Realm Reborn) and have been playing since mid vanilla, every guild I have been in from start to end has been full of mostly adults with jobs and families.
    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people - Martin Luther King, Jr.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Time-consuming describes things like farming very precisely. People are throwing around the word "difficult" because of it's imprecise nature trying to obfuscate the truth that there is nothing mentally challenging or requiring manual dexterity (two attributes that are most often associated with something being difficult) in most of WoW content of olden days. In nine cases out of ten it was purely time-consuming, not difficult.
    Maybe its just me, but I found soloing elite mobs a challenge for me, needing to use CDs correctly and knowing when to heal (as a Paladin)

    Not to mention the solo only Hunter/Priest epic weapon quests, the Hunter one is quite brutul as it punishes any aid from other players or your pet

  4. #184
    Deleted
    Here we go again , without reading your post at all i can already say what is in there...let me gues :

    " I play since vanilla/TBC"
    " Back then it was harder to do X becuase of Y"
    " Having epics meant something "
    " LFR ruined wow "

    Am i right? Jesus christ leave the horse alone already..it's beaten to death.

  5. #185
    Listen I really respect heroic raiders and high rated pvp'ers, but to me the huge difference between "casual" and "hardcore" isn't so obvious. I mean is a normal raiding guild considered hardcore? Where is the line drawn here. Normal raiding is a lot tougher than RF, and Heroic raiding is a lot tougher than normal, but who says that there aren't a ton of players running RF capable of running normal raids. Does this automatically make the normal raider better or more hardcore? To me this illusion of a class system is just a fallacy. I for one have heard just as much complaints, demand, and threats to blizzard from super "hardcore" to the super "casual". In fact probably more.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by championknight View Post
    Maybe its just me, but I found soloing elite mobs a challenge for me,
    And that's why I said "in nine cases out of ten" at the end of the paragraph you quoted. Farming is easy, grinding mobs for leveling is easy. It just takes long time. You could grind easily non-elite mobs for zero challenge, it was simply time-consuming, not difficult unless you choose to make it difficult. Those elite mobs were group quests in vanilla, not meant for soloing and almost always not even possible to solo without outleveling it or with a pet class to cheat it.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  7. #187
    Deleted
    Casuals Did not ruin wow. Wow is just as much" hard core" as it ever was with heroic modes. So raids can be harder, raids can be easyer, it great for everyone. There is PVP(over twise as many as was in vanila) There are arena, and rated BG. wow has not become to casual, just more to do for all level of players

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    I hear this "Players are older now" crap so much it's almost become a staple in every thread when Blizzard loses subs, you do realize a lot of WoW players have been adults with jobs right? Heck I am 33 (Unsubbed because I think the game has turned to rubbish and now play FF 14: A Realm Reborn) and have been playing since mid vanilla, every guild I have been in from start to end has been full of mostly adults with jobs and families.
    was stating that some people may have left because they just don't have the time to dedicate towards the game anymore, I'm not saying it is the only reason was just stating one possible...I'm 36 and just find that I don't have the time anymore...doesn't mean I still don't love the game...fact is it's all down to personal preference

  9. #189
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    They didnt ruin wow at all....but it does warm my soul to know as a casual player im irritating these elitist idiots that think this way that much. Im glad they hate my type of player because we arent going anywhere and god dont they hate it!

  10. #190
    Scarab Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    This thread is STILL going on? You have GOT to be kidding me.
    None of you can even agree on what WoW really means, yet alone define "casual" in any sensible way you all can agree on. Yet to continue to talk past each other, insistent on posting into the void to keep this non-topic alive.

    It's comparable to kids on the playground debating each other when playing make-believe. "I shot you, you should be dead, you have no business still shooting at me!WAH" - "You only strafed me, I was wearing armor *sticks out tongue*! WAH!".

    You can count the number of rational and well thought-out arguments on one hand. Total lack of perception and relative meaning.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by madrox View Post
    When one of the definitions of difficult is "requires more effort" I think its very appropriate in it's usage. "time-consuming" is more of contraction detailing a specific flavour of difficulty rather than being a separate entity.
    This.

    As an ex-player who quit the game shortly after the launch of MoP after having played since vanilla I experienced the whole decline in difficulty, and by difficulty I meant that it was both Hard and Required More Effort, aka took more time because a) you had to wipe over and over and over to win, b) you had to collect stuff outside the raid in order to be top of the line.

    But did casuals ruin WoW? Certainly not. They made WoW massive, 12 million players at its peak. The vast majority of these players were casuals, just as most people are today. What ruined WoW, to me, is the way Blizzard chose to appeal to Casuals. Should they appeal to Casuals? Yes!! Of course they should, it adds alot of fun functionality to the game and keeps Blizzard's pockets full of money to deliver more content. But should they have gone with the policy "we want everyone to see everything" to appeal to Casuals? No!! THAT was their big mistake to me. What they should've done, or should, is to have like 2 raids each tier, where 1 of the raids uses the flex technology they now have to appeal to casual raiders, and consider those raids as the "normal mode" of the tier. Once you have completed those raids you will be attuned to enter the other 1 raid which is harder and which feature the end boss of the patch and/or expansion. This raid is the hard mode. So the casual raiders will have stuff to do, and they will see Queen Azshara's lieutenants or w/e, but they won't get to kill Queen Azshara these raids. Then, using some scaling technology the 1 casual raid should turn into 5-man dungeons when they release the next raid tier, while the main raid with Queen Azshara scales down to a casual raid. Then for each raid tier there will be 2 casual raids (the previous hard mode raid + new casual raids with story of the current tier), and 1 hard mode tier.

    As I would've been part of the "casual raiders" category in this scenario I would've prevented myself from seeing Queen Azshara right away... now why would I do that? Well, as I was never in a top guild during vanilla/tbc (only time I "finnished" the game was when my guild killed Illidan while he was the last boss of the game) I always had something to aspire to, and it made me interested in following top guilds like Nihilium etc, then when you finally got to that badass end boss it was truly epic when you finally kileld him - it was this feeling of mystery and community that made World of Warcraft seem not like a game but a world. Not getting to see something in-person in game but rather aspire to it and look up to those cool raiders with that awesome set or weapon standing in Orgrimamr added more to the game than allowing me to see everything right away, it's like "immaterial content". Sure, today they have Hard Mode and shit, but when you start playing Hard Mode you have already killed Illidan... it is not as epic to go kill him again, just with more HP and another mechanic. It's still the same dude.

    Also, as they would constantly scale down hard mode raids to casual raids, and casual raids to dungeons for each content patch, more diversity would be added to collection of dungeons without needing to design entire new dungeons, which is also great as a casual player.

  12. #192
    Herald of the Titans Vintersol's Avatar
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    Did casuals ruin WoW and if so how?
    No. Blizzard decided that it would be cool to jump on the "short fun waggon". Less hurdles, more accessibility, simplified handling and so on. It looks like it was made for the casual audience but real casuals doesn't care about things in the game. The time before Wrath proofs this.

  13. #193
    Herald of the Titans theWocky's Avatar
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    If it wasn't for the casuals, WoW would be a niche game on a few servers. Sad, but true. Gamers move on, evolve with the times and adapt and acquire new tastes. Young blood needs to fill that space.

  14. #194
    No casuals didn't ruin wow, blizz ruined wow by making it too casual.

    I used to raid 3 days on main, and the other 4 days i raided with alts.

    Now it's LFR and since i never got too far in normal with guild, i can't get in a pug because "i don't have the required achievement"

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Rupenbritz View Post
    Wait what??
    Catac was more casual then anything, we played twice a week and still managed 8/8 HC very fast. (And yes i played Vanilla and TBC semi-hardcore).
    Any guild that could beat 12/12 normal of T11 when it was current could easily clear 8/8 hc of T13 when it was current. T11 was just that much harder, which lead to a huge drop in subscriptions (that and, the patch after it consisted of two rehashed troll heroic dungeons, people just quit because there was nothing to do).

  16. #196
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    To quote Abraham Lincoln, "You can please some of the people all of the time, and LOOK OUT VAMPIRE!"

    What I think he was trying to say, is that it's impossible to make a game (or anything else, for that matter) that 100% of the people find perfectly to their liking. Honestly, I think Mists did a good job of making most people pretty happy. In ToT, at least, hardcore players found a significant challenge. H Lei Shen has a four freaking percent completion rate, and 5.4 is live next week! Meanwhile average to bad players (such as myself) have normal, LFR, and shortly Flex Raiding to give us some measure of progress. Add scenarios, pet battles, Sunsong Ranch, and different ways to spike your reputation, and you have a lot to work with. But including all that content that the most tunnel-vision hardcore player would rather chew their arm off than play didn't ruin their fun, because they still have content that basically only they will see and work towards.

    So, short answer, no. Just because there's a lot of content for casuals doesn't mean anyone else's magically vanishes.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Honestly, I think Mists did a good job of making most people pretty happy.
    Do y-you... do you play the same game we're playing? Were you not there for the quarterly reports?

  18. #198
    This was discussed to death and again, Now you are asking?

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by mmowin View Post
    Sup everyone so ive been playing WoW since about the start of BC and I know back then it was harder trying to clear content and the game in itself was a lot harder since there was no LFR or group find for anything plus you had to flyout to the actual instance. So basically if you werent in a hard core raiding guild you werent going to see any content. Ive seen a lot of posts on other forums talking about how WoW has been dumbed down to the point where its unplayable now and everyone is blaming the casual player for this. My question is how exactly did the casual "ruin" WoW?
    It's not casuals that ruined WoW. It's whiny kids who call themselves "casual" while they're really just bads. I was casual in vanilla, never joined a guild or stepped into a raid, but I had a great time. There was great casual content in the form of 5-mans, exploration and gold making, which lasted me for the whole time since I was an actual casual that logged in occasionally. Instead of someone that plays every night, still fails to get anywhere, and just calls himself "casual" because that sounds better than "bad". I didn't have a problem with other people doing raids since I had plenty of other things to do every time I logged in.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    Do y-you... do you play the same game we're playing? Were you not there for the quarterly reports?
    Being happy and being $15 happy with plenty of F2P options available are two entirely different things. People do not like paying if there is free alternative, that's why pirate servers exist.

    Also if your happiness as a player (not shareholder) depends on the quarterly reports you might be in need of professional help.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

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