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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    His response to being stuck on a boss was apparently "unsubscribe, stop playing".

    That's a worrying viewpoint if it becomes widespread in the gaming community.
    Wait... you have a hard time believing something is true if it's "worrying"?

    Maybe you need to stop filtering your view of reality through a lens of wishful thinking.

    It is crystal clear from the stats that the hardcore, smash face against adversity play style is practiced by only a small minority. Of course people quit when they encounter frustration. The real problem is explaining the oddballs who don't.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  2. #242
    Epic! dryankem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    His response to being stuck on a boss was apparently "unsubscribe, stop playing".

    That's a worrying viewpoint if it becomes widespread in the gaming community.
    That's already widespread in the gaming community. That was common when commodore 64 was the end all and be all of gaming.

    It's a fine line for developers, since if something becomes too hard people will just stop trying (with the exception of a handful of players but they'll eventually quit too when they get bored or move on with their lives) but if it's too easy then everyone beats the challenge and lose interest. There is such a fine line and they are trying to appeal to millions of people, not just the handful that post on forums or take the game way too seriously.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    THIS. I'm so tired of these WoW-babies who never played an MMO before 2005 acting like Vanilla WoW was some mythical hardcore land of yore. WoW was ALWAYS "the casual game" from day one.

    All classes could actually level solo, items didn't permanently wear out, shit you didn't even lose XP or drop any of your equipment when you died. The hardcore vanilla raider slogging through Molten Core was a soft little casual baby compared to pretty much everyone playing every other MMO. Right from the start Blizzard began to realize that "casual = money".
    exactly, the original wow was tailored to the casual, with extras for the hardcore players. Not the other way around. The only changes blizz has made is time savers. You can argue about content, but as far as mechanics go, queing for lfd, lfr, bgs, and quicker leveling, these are all just time savers. And the best thing is, they are all OPTIONAL

  4. #244
    Pandaren Monk Tart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neezh View Post
    Wow isn't ruined.
    Its a far cry from BC that for sure.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Wait... you have a hard time believing something is true if it's "worrying"?

    Maybe you need to stop filtering your view of reality through a lens of wishful thinking.

    It is crystal clear from the stats that the hardcore, smash face against adversity play style is practiced by only a small minority. Of course people quit when they encounter frustration. The real problem is explaining the oddballs who don't.
    It was a question used to imitate shock at the viewpoint, I thought that much was obvious.

    Casuals don't "smash face against adversity" until they don't kill a boss? Sorry but that is just a complete fabrication.

    Just because somebody is casual does not mean they can't handle a wipe.

    If players can't handle losing/wiping/dying then surely watching a film or reading a book would be a better exercise?

    Losing is a massive part of gaming and always will be.

  6. #246
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Yeah, casuals ruined WoW by having the UNMITIGATED GALL to make their spending decisions for themselves, rather than for their hardcore "betters".

    How selfish of them, to not do things for the royalty of the game. You'd almost think they had a right to their own happiness. Incredible.
    ^^
    /10chars

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by dryankem View Post
    That's already widespread in the gaming community. That was common when commodore 64 was the end all and be all of gaming.

    It's a fine line for developers, since if something becomes too hard people will just stop trying (with the exception of a handful of players but they'll eventually quit too when they get bored or move on with their lives) but if it's too easy then everyone beats the challenge and lose interest. There is such a fine line and they are trying to appeal to millions of people, not just the handful that post on forums or take the game way too seriously.
    Indeed, I agree it is a balance, I guess I didn't really make it that clear that I think it shouldn't be faceroll and brick wall as well

  8. #248
    Epic! dryankem's Avatar
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    NVM - I just noticed you agreed with me =P

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Tart View Post
    Its a far cry from BC that for sure.
    Is it?

    We travel to a new land, doing quests in odd looking zones, as horde an alliance establish bases in the new land, to come across dungeons, elites, and eventually kill a big bad boss in a big temple.

    Yep. very far removed.

    The only thing removed is the mechanics. And yes i did like the whole attunement/rep for heroics, etc model better, but even better than taht I liked the tabard model.

    Each expansion is a new way of doing things.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tart View Post
    Its a far cry from BC that for sure.
    Oh! and then after all that we have to kill a leader of one of the factions!

  10. #250
    I am Murloc! Anjerith's Avatar
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    As WoW was founded on the idea of casual-play, I find it amusing that players that could not have even begun to have reached max level in games that came out prior to WoW have this ludicrous idea that they are somehow "hardcore".
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    THIS. I'm so tired of these WoW-babies who never played an MMO before 2005 acting like Vanilla WoW was some mythical hardcore land of yore. WoW was ALWAYS "the casual game" from day one.
    If vanilla was casual, what do you possibly call the game now? I think that's the issue, the 'casual' discussion is generally within the confines of this game itself, never about the games that were around prior.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsOurEric View Post
    The answer is simple, nothing has killed WoW. No player base, lore change, systems change, graphics change,etc.
    Nothing has changed in such a degree that it has *killed* WoW. WoW is currently 4 expansions in, and it is STILL
    the highest subscribed MMO out there.

    I think anyone who makes statements like "X has ruined WoW" really needs to take a step back and get off their
    proverbial high horse. There have been many changes, some for the better, some for the worst, and some that
    will always be argued for/against. But when you have a game as old as WoW, there is bound to be stagnation and
    even moreso bound to be unhappy complaints and misguided delusions of "the good old days" that veterans cling
    on to.
    it is really that simple but don't tell people that.... lol

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Uoyredrum View Post
    No, blizzard ruined it by catering to them. Casuals don't have enough knowledge of the game to understand what makes certain things good or bad generally, and therefore catering to them generally ruins the game (LFD, LFR, Normal/Heroic toggle, etc.)
    "Good or bad" is subjective, so by definition everyone has enough knowledge to understand what makes things good and bad for them. The fact that they don't understand what makes things good or bad for you is more a function of their lack of familiarity with you rather than of their ignorance of the game. Everyone knows what they like and Blizzard can't tell them otherwise. They tried to impose your notion of "good or bad" back in early Cataclysm, and the results were cataclysmic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Historically WoW's famous machinima has been about the challenges players had to face. Leeroy Jenkins was about running into a room and pulling welps. Today we regularly just run into rooms and just AOE everything. The Grind was about defeating Onyxia and finding a dwarf priest for fear ward. You don't see machinima like that anymore because what's the video gonna be about?
    Leeroy Jenkins was hilarious, but the whelp aspect of it had no basis in reality. You could easily control the rate at which whelps spawned by controlling the eggs that you ran over. The survival odds that they had calculated in the video were clearly made up and served only to build tension before Leeroy screwed up the run by charging in. The situation that the video was parodying still exists today and happens in LFR all the time. I remember many LFR runs when someone was trying to explain Spirit Kings but then the tank charged in and was one-shotted in seconds because no one was stacked on them. That's classic Leeroy right there. Also, wowcrendor's Youtube channel is filled with machinima all made within the last year. I agree that their quality has suffered recently due to the lack of compelling MoP content, but he's still giving it a commendable try.

    Quote Originally Posted by championknight View Post
    5 man dungeons and heroics gameplay suffered during Cata's first patch. MoP improved on it, but is still behind TBC/WoLTK/Vanilla for variety
    WTF? How did MoP improve on 5-man dungeons? They were neglected to the point where I ran each maybe once or twice, as opposed to repeatedly grinding them as in previous releases. Also, we haven't had a single new 5-man all expansion. Was this just an attempt at sarcasm that went over my head?

    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    Does anyone really enjoy a game where there's no challenge and they just faceroll anything?

    Really?
    Some people might. Who are you to tell people what they should and shouldn't enjoy? Besides, most players work around many of the game's challenges using addons like Deadly Boss Mods and GTFO. They min-max their equipment with askmrrobot and optimize their rotations by reading published simulator results on sites like Noxxic and Wowpopular. Prior to fighting raid bosses they watch kill videos and/or read strategy guides from sites like Tankspot and Icy Veins. Then, after going out of their way to remove as much challenge from the game as possible they complain about the lack of challenge and demand that the difficulty be ramped up to accommodate them. If you want a challenge, raid without addons, work out your own stat priorities, figure out your own rotations, and work out fights by trial and error rather than strategy guides. Quit demanding that others cheat like you in order to have a shot at beating the content that challenges you.

    In other words, LFR is still a challenge for players who haven't cheated. It's not a faceroll for the audience for which it was intended. Just because you've cleared normal modes with your organized guild and outgear everything in LFR doesn't make you an authority on what is and isn't compelling for others.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-09-04 at 06:41 PM.

  14. #254
    It didnt ruin wow the community did. In vanilla i could make way faster friends than in WOTLK/Cata/MoP. The main problem with wow is that people played it for to long and it gets bored.

    a another mayor factor is that people complain way to much look at the amount of QQ you get on forums and reactions on lets say facebook.

    Tbh i still think the game is ok in its own way PS i dont play anymore hehe stopped with it again because i got bored with it.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by mmowin View Post
    My question is how exactly did the casual "ruin" WoW?
    Ruin it? Casuals are the reason the game still has legs.

  16. #256
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greendog View Post
    Ruin it? Casuals are the reason the game still has legs.
    Yea, but non-casuals are the reason certain bosses got new legs.

  17. #257
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    My personal angle and preference on the game is somewhat irrelevant. The fact is that catering to a more limited scope of player will increase the quality of said content, and also allow for more of it. This is a truism whenever you have a somewhat fixed number of man hours for development between content releases, and is a truism when dealing with the expectations of the players themselves, which of course run the gamut. This same playerbase tends to feel slighted or ignored whenever content or improvements come out that aren't aimed specifically at them.

    Expect to lose some of your playerbase, focus on the sort of player who remains, and you'll wind up with increased sub retention. Continue trying to make Azeroth the digital version of Wal-Mart, and I don't see anything changing for the better in the future.
    Theirs so much that's absurd in this that's it's gonna take me a bit to break it down so please bare with me.

    1. Your personal angle and preference are not irellevant. They color everything you say. Why is it better that the needs and happiness of a few be met at the expense of the larger majority? Obviously for you because you think your personal angle and preference will be met
    2. Your truisms are laughable. It is not a guarantee or truism that the quality of content will increase. In fact let's say they focused solely on YOU and YOUR DESIRES and NEEDS. How long do you think it would take before the development staff were laid off, fired, or moved to other projects? How long before the dip in subscribers forced changes in the game (purely financial and economic ones) that began to affect the game? I'm sorry it's not a truism that the quality of content would get better because the number of man hours aren't fixed. They are subject to economic and financial whims.
    3. The playerbase as a whole doesn't feel slighted, this is also not a truism. In so far as casuals are concerned they don't feel slighted they simple leave when they aren't entertained. Some CHILDREN may feel slighted but they are an obvious minority not worth the expense and time it would take to sate them anyway.

    Your truisms aren't so much truisms as they are observations and not on the whole balanced ones. It's funny you use walmart as an example because walmart makes money hand over fist. It's an excellent business model to follow Blizzard just hasn't been following it. Expecting to lose some of your player base is clever. If they followed your design goals they'd lose MILLIONS and most likely have severe cutbacks insuring actually LESS content and less quality for all.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  18. #258
    Stood in the Fire
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    Content was more time consuming which kept u playing longer, Content now is dumbed down and made very easy to do for casuals. Blizzard just got lazy took the easy way out and are now paying for it every day. TBC model for me was the best and was a really great game to play.

  19. #259
    When I think of casual, I think of someone taking the easy way out, someone who cannot be bothered about decent gameplay. I don't think a casual is someone who has less time, those that do not have time would hopefully still want a solid game. For my definition, I do not mean casuals as someone who is time sensitive.

    Casuals to me, in my mind and how it pertains to WoW, would be lazy and entitled with poor character.

    Then there are those who play casually but still want the gameplay and understand that the game developers should not cater to the lazy and entitled. I know people who play casually, good people. Then I know people who are the lazy and entitled casual. Those are the casual that get on my nerves, and there is a lot of them within WoW.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucarocks92 View Post
    Content was more time consuming which kept u playing longer, Content now is dumbed down and made very easy to do for casuals. Blizzard just got lazy took the easy way out and are now paying for it every day. TBC model for me was the best and was a really great game to play.
    "Time-consuming" and "difficulty" are nasty words to the vocal minority that are posing as the majority.

    Apparently everything has to be done on a set time (which no one really knows since it varies from "casual" to "casual").
    So right now Blizzard is in a pickle in keeping them playing (ya know, for subs) but making sure they can access the content on this arbitrary time frame.

    It's kind of like Oroborous, feeding on it's own ass.

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