Did casuals ruin WoW and if so how?

[Deleted]

People who ruin WoW: "Give me stuff or I will cancel my sub!!!"

Problem is that this is the argument of LFR heros ("If you change LFR I will cancel my sub!!!") who only stay subbed to see the content once and leave again, complaining that there is nothing to do. And Blizzard listened to them and is only now realizing (by the numbers of lost subscriptions) that you can't build a game around these unreliable, uncaring folks.

[Asotcha]

I think "regular' players are an important part of the game. every lowby just learning the ropes, every person selling stuff on the ah, every guildy, Everyone contributes to the life and health of the world. Discounting either side of the elite/casual debate is ignoring the bigger picture. I know great people who dont touch raiding with a ten-foot pole, and others who sail through heroic modes the way we'd casually run to the store for ice cream. Azeroth is better off with them all.

[Grogo]

There is two upcoming anticipated games coming up this fall I believe, ESO and EQN, lets see how loyal the casuals are. Be a good test you think? Especially if just one of the two is good. Will be interesting.

[Ronduwil]

Cataclysm and MoP are less casual than Wotlk and previous expansions? Is this a joke? Random casuals in LFR were killing Deathwing with ease on the same week he got released and you think that is less casual than gated ICC and other things in Wotlk ?

Random casuals never asked to raid and never wanted to raid. Cataclysm and MoP are definitely less casual than previous expansions. Look at the number of 5-mans in each expansion since WotLK:

WotLK - 16
Cataclysm - 14 (and 4 of them were redone raids and/or revamped low-level dungeons)
MoP - 9 (and 3 of those are revamped low-level dungeons)

How do you figure that Cataclysm and MoP cater to casuals? It's all raid all the time. That's not casual. There this misguided notion that all casuals have been casting dewy-eyed gazes on the raiders and aspiring to become "good" enough to tread the same halls that they do when in reality most casuals couldn't care less about setting foot in raid. The only reason DW was dying in LFR was that the three Heroic Dungeons that were dropped at the same time could be facerolled in about a half hour apiece. What else were they supposed to do???

MoP is even worse. No dungeons. Just dailies and scenarios that don't even require healers or tanks. Yeah, that really caters to casuals. Where do I sign up for that? Let me go re-sub right now. No, thanks. You're kidding yourself if you think this game has become more casual-friendly.

[The Glitch]

People who ruin WoW: "Give me stuff or I will cancel my sub!!!"

Problem is that this is the argument of LFR heros ("If you change LFR I will cancel my sub!!!") who only stay subbed to see the content once and leave again, complaining that there is nothing to do. And Blizzard listened to them and is only now realizing (by the numbers of lost subscriptions) that you can't build a game around these unreliable, uncaring folks.

What the hell is a LFR hero? Please do enlighten me? Is it those normal raiders that go into LFR and AFK their way through letting everyone else pick up their slack , whilst they come on the forums to mock and jape that they AFK through it and get their loots?

Or is it just you being derogatory towards people that solely use LFR and enjoy it, to make yourself feel better?

Because I play LFR only these days, that is my end game raiding, and I certainly do not go around demanding they give us X or I will unsub. Have been subbed for 8 years have never unsubbed in those 8 years , continually enjoy the game, and when they change things about that doesn't suit me, I find something else to do, or if my life changes I change my playstyle to suit.

For me the game has only gotten better. More options, different ways to play, allowing more people into content they previously couldn't get into. Not sure whats wrong with that.

[Ronduwil]

Seriously, go re-read my fucking post, slow down, read it carefully.

I re-read it and I stand by my statement.

When I think of casual, I think of someone taking the easy way out, someone who cannot be bothered about decent gameplay.

Casuals to me, in my mind and how it pertains to WoW, would be lazy and entitled with poor character.

WoW is a fucking GAME!!! I don't know how else to put it. Foregoing mastery of a computer game in order to devote more time to mastering real-world skills that yield real-world rewards is not being lazy or entitled. Nor is it indicative of poor character. I have yet to experience a job interview where I would even feel comfortable bringing up my Heroic LK or DW kills. If anything it would reflect poorly on me because the hundreds (thousands?) of hours I spent mastering my WoW skills could have been better spent improving skills relevant to my job. If anything, your definition of casual is the opposite of lazy and entitled. Those people who devote every waking moment of the day memorizing raid strats, parsing their WoL logs, and practicing their rotations are the fortunate few. Of those few, the ones who expect everyone else to do likewise are the most lazy and entitled. Why? Because WoW is a GAME!!!

Looking down on others because they don't have the luxury to play as much as you would like them to is completely ridiculous.

I think what he's saying is that using the term "lazy" for someone playing a computer game compared to another person playing a computer game is kind of absurd. We're all sitting on our butts playing a video game - unless you play while doing sit-ups, we're all just as "lazy." Nothing you do or don't do in game is lazy. In fact, finishing your in-game "chores" and moving back into real life is less lazy.

That's another way of phrasing it, but it pretty much sums up the point I was making.

[Tomana]

Yes. I also don't have to explain why. The sub losses speak volumes.

Here's a hint: Non casual gamers generally don't enjoy casual games.

Which is why there is exactly ONE non-casual MMO on the market. And it has less than 500k subs. This pretty much says everything.

- - - Updated - - -

Not true, game didnt start to cater to casuals until late TBC

Vanilla was MUCH more casual than its competitors. It is WoW strategy from day one. And when competition becomes more accessible, you have to make yours so as well.

Most of the subs lost are not casual players but the opposite, why would casual players leave a game that is getting more and more casual with every expansion, that makes no sense at all.

Are you even serious? Non casual players are by definition a minority. Attributing the majority of the loss to them is silly.
And why casual players leave a casual game? Well, because of time constraints. And because of two big mistakes called early Cata and early MOP. Those turned off quite a lot of casual players.

[Deleted]

Please don't let this become a rose-tinted goggles thread stating that wow, Vanilla was far less casual and by that logic better. Vanilla was insanely difficult back in the day, AQ40 was stressful as hell (EMPERORS! C'THUN!) given the fact that classes were really difficult to play and even world bosses like Azuregos could be a bit of a pain. I think it's because of the casuals that the game has improved somewhat and we should be grateful that people can now have the option of going hardcore or casual since many people don't have a lot of time to invest into the game and only want to play it for a while. In that way, those that are dedicated to the game can get the best rewards and those that have less time can get good rewards equal to the difficulty setting.

[avx81]

if this game still had the tbc model i think the subs would be even lower to be honest.

so casuals are prob saving this game

Ding.. I raided at least 3 days a week, up to 5 from vanilla through wrath. Never missing a raid, always prepared. I got to a point where I couldnt take it anymore so I quit. I got a new job however I work nights so even if I wanted to raid again my hours would interfere. Sometimes I work upwards of 16 hour days.. money is good right now.

If I want to play I hop on to do a 5 man or LFR when I'm bored and I honestly love it. I like being able to see the raids that would otherwise be impossible for me see because of my hours. If it wasn't for LFR I would probably quit. I do pvp a little but I cant commit to anything because of my shift and the crazy hours I work.

[This name sucks]

Players, as midguided as they might, will never be blamed for anything in my book. This applies to everything, whether it's the good old casual/hc debate, people complaining about OP classes in PvP/PvE, whatever.
As such, no. Casual players are certainly not to blame for anything.

I do believe that the devs failed to discern the 'needs' and 'wants' of te playerbase though, and did open the pandora's box in the process somewhere around WotLK. And they have been trying to fix that mistake since then, with little success so far. But players to blame? Certainly not.

I still don't understand why they thought suddenly quadrupling the modes of a single raid was a good idea.

Went from 25man or gtfo to 10/25 normal/hard.

Then people rolled the idea and eventually that split off even further with lfr, flex and queueing with everything.

[Stevegasm]

Did casuals ruin MMOs would be a more appropriate question. From the very start, WoW has been thee casual MMO and the reason why it's a popular game.

[Konik]

good thread, new stuff and..wait

1. Casual players = player who don't invest much time into game

2. Bad players = players who fail in LFR often

Casual can be Bad and also Good (less usual), but definitely Casual ≠ Bad

live with that

@OP

Imo amount of necessary daily questing and rep hunting in Cata screwed the game experience a bit. These should be optional with such rewards as vanity items, pets, special transmorg. gear, mounts, etc.

[Deleted]

I re-read it and I stand by my statement.



WoW is a fucking GAME!!! I don't know how else to put it. Foregoing mastery of a computer game in order to devote more time to mastering real-world skills that yield real-world rewards is not being lazy or entitled. Nor is it indicative of poor character. I have yet to experience a job interview where I would even feel comfortable bringing up my Heroic LK or DW kills. If anything it would reflect poorly on me because the hundreds (thousands?) of hours I spent mastering my WoW skills could have been better spent improving skills relevant to my job. If anything, your definition of casual is the opposite of lazy and entitled. Those people who devote every waking moment of the day memorizing raid strats, parsing their WoL logs, and practicing their rotations are the fortunate few. Of those few, the ones who expect everyone else to do likewise are the most lazy and entitled. Why? Because WoW is a GAME!!!

Looking down on others because they don't have the luxury to play as much as you would like them to is completely ridiculous.


That's another way of phrasing it, but it pretty much sums up the point I was making.

You are right to work for more substantial things in real life that will probably last longer than the things in WoW. But if a player can't be arsed to put enough effort into the game they havent earned the right to anything despite what they pay to play for the game. You wouldnt want a selfplaying Super Mario Bros right? What you're dead wrong in is that the people who look into parses, strategies and similar things are lazy. Its a hobby they take very serious. Most are managing a reallife on top of that very sucessefully.

The only casuals that are ruining it for wow economically is the ones who play for a month or two and then unsub after a few lfr/normal clears until the next tier. There's a shitload of thoose. Blizzard wants people to sub regularly which is why the lfr/normalmode crowd probably brings in the most money since they are the biggest in numbers. It's probably also the reason to why blizzard wants to put out content in a higher pace - to make sure as few people as possible unsub inbetween tiers.

[Deleted]

Elitists ruined WoW.

[Lime]

Ruined WoW? Lol no.
Took away some features I liked, yeah, but it's still great.

[Seegtease]

Most of these arguments should be viewed within the context of the game itself. Was vanilla more casual than EQ / AC / etc? Absolutely. Is it more casual now than it was when it was released? Absolutely.

This is correct, but likewise, the subs were on a constant increase through Wrath. It may not seem like Vanilla was casual by today's standards, but at the time, it was. And despite being comparatively casual, it drew people in masses. It continued to get more casual and continued to draw people in. It was a selling point then, and is a selling point now. It's not a flaw. People wanted a more accessible game. They don't necessarily want everything handed to them, but they want content accessible.

Point being, WoW got to a record breaking number of subscribers not by being hardcore, but by being casual. There is no reason to believe that it was the cause of the eventual decrease in subs.

[Deleted]

LOL at this thread again.

I used to be hardcore, world first contestant in vanilla and bc, but now you know, that was 10 years ago, when i was about 14. Now i have a life, a girlfriend to take care of, higher education. So yup, i'm casual now, i cannot find time to raid at all, i like the effort of flex but it solves nothing for me personally.

tldr dont feel entitled because you have too much time on your hands. Your 15 bucks is worth the same as mine.

[Phasma]

Hardcore and casual are styles of play, not demographics. Let's stop the whole hardcore vs. casual debate. The underlying issue is that the game lacks exclusive hardcore content for people that want a challenge. People are tired of Blizzard slapping a difficulty modifier on something and calling it content. It's not content and Blizzard is not fooling anyone. Lastly, if you like the casual style better, that's fine, but don't try to bring others down when they want more hardcore content. That's just being selfish.

[Deleted]

Sup. My question is how exactly did the casual "ruin" WoW?

no, what ruined wow was people opening sentences with "sup".

[Deleted]

The only casuals that are ruining it for wow economically is the ones who play for a month or two and then unsub after a few lfr/normal clears until the next tier. There's a shitload of thoose. Blizzard wants people to sub regularly which is why the lfr/normalmode crowd probably brings in the most money since they are the biggest in numbers. It's probably also the reason to why blizzard wants to put out content in a higher pace - to make sure as few people as possible unsub inbetween tiers.

how about you fuck off you little entitled elitist jerk? I unsub after one month when a new patch launches nowadays. Why? Saw the content they made and i like the fact that others can enjoy it more if they want to but i don't have the fucking time anymore.

elsewhise there is NOTHING that keeps me playing the game. MoP is one big grind, maybe timeless isle prooves interesting but i can't see me playing that for over 1 month without knowing everything on there.

tldr mop is boring as fuck and i don't have enough time to invest to make it interesting. I'm sure it's interesting for a lot of players (normal/heroic raiders) but that's what they choose to do. Stop blaming us, more casually approached people. It's just a game.

Infracted: Please do not insult other posters. Thank you. [ML]