Did casuals ruin WoW and if so how?

[bufferunderrun]

I don't know but everytime blizzard change even a small thing to make it less time consuming or more "fun" i feel wow is moving away from the mmo genre, is really more fun now tanking than how it was in bc for example? Is the change to stats and talents really needed? For me no it isn't more fun it's just more easy to understand without a bit of effort.

[Deleted]

I never understood the term "casual" when used in context with WoW. WoW was never meant to be the exclusive hardcore game of all times, time-consuming yes, absurdly hard no. As I see it, the percentage of truly hardcore people in WoW is really low, so if anything "casuals" as most people call them (I call them simply players), are the ones keeping the game running and alive. Exclusive content =/= good game design. It is good game design for a select few and a very bad design for the majority. I myself have enjoyed immensely Ultima Online and EverQuest for example, but WoW has hit the sweet spot imo with content for everybody.

So "casuals" may have ruined the game FOR some people, but the game is better overall no doubt.

[Tomana]

If you're looking for where the blunders started, you need to look at where the subscriber trend changed significantly. That would be the very beginning of WotLK. Subs grew quickly and steadily all through vanilla and TBC. In WotLK they peaked just after release and just before Cata, but those peaks were not significantly above TBC end numbers, and basically the sub count remained at the TBC end levels throughout.

Nah, that's because the MMO market saturated at that point, making TBC level churn impossible to sustain. However, they could have handled Cata way better and lengthen the plateau by a lot if they didn't make Cataclysm.

[Sharuko]

I am a casual player, but Blizzard's mistake is to cater to the casual player. You do not focus and cater to casual players. You should focus and cater to your top 10% or top 20% of the playerbase. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have content for casuals, you should have plenty of content for casuals. But you should not focus your game around casuals. Casuals are gamers that have no investment in the game, they will quit if they don't like the game or if they find a better game.

The casual gamer is not the ones laying the foundation of a community, it is usually the top 10% or top 20% of gamers that are. Builds, specs, strats, websites, fansites are usually not created by casual games (with exceptions). Casuals are the ones that consume that content.

A perfect example is a company like Zynga, pretty much the Mecca for super casual gamers. Zynga was flourishing will millions of players. Then it literally all stopped and they almost went bankrupt. Catering to casuals means your game will be extremely volatile and not stable. If you want to make a quick buck then focus on casuals, if you want stability focus and cater to the top 10% to 20% but also give the casuals content.

The point should be to try and convert casual players to hardcore players. What WoW is recently doing is converting hardcore players into casuals.

[Grogo]

The problem is that it doesn't matter what you say to people with Grogo's attitude. They're always have another "answer", often one that uses tortured logic. And TBH, I don't think those kind of people can be satisfied short of wow being a super hardcore game where everything required extreme dedication. You know, a game wow never was.

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I can't argue with that. But I also think that the "anti social behavior" thing is exaggerated. I don't think have nearly as much of a bad time as some claim.

I call bullshit on you and Osmeric. Stop tweaking what I have said into what you wish I meant. Then ride in on your white horse, it's embarrassing to witness.

Anyway, I do not anything to be hardcore, the game has taken a turn to cater to casuals in just about every aspect of the game except Heroic Raids, that means content changed and not in a good way. It is really a concept, I understand that I am not the meter by which all content should be judged, I do have the opinion that the game took a nose dive, it has become a breeding for the casual player.

It coincides exactly with the game turning to shit. Coincidence, maybe. My opinion, which is such tortured logic I guess, is that casuals ruined the fucking game. They made it generally worse and we have a company that will sacrifice their left nut for an extra buck. Fuck gameplay, lets go after the farmville crowd, so then that follows with "we have to change some shit" which they did.

Enjoy the game though. The gameplay must be stellar for you, I just didn't buy into that whole thing.

[SodiumChloride]

You know what's funny? When WoW first came out, if you said you were a "hardcore WoW player" people would just laugh at you. WoW? Hardcore? LOL.

[Grogo]

I am a casual player, but Blizzard's mistake is to cater to the casual player. You do not focus and cater to casual players. You should focus and cater to your top 10% or top 20% of the playerbase. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have content for casuals, you should have plenty of content for casuals. But you should not focus your game around casuals. Casuals are gamers that have no investment in the game, they will quit if they don't like the game or if they find a better game.

The casual gamer is not the ones laying the foundation of a community, it is usually the top 10% or top 20% of gamers that are. Builds, specs, strats, websites, fansites are usually not created by casual games (with exceptions). Casuals are the ones that consume that content.

A perfect example is a company like Zynga, pretty much the Mecca for super casual gamers. Zynga was flourishing will millions of players. Then it literally all stopped and they almost went bankrupt. Catering to casuals means your game will be extremely volatile and not stable. If you want to make a quick buck then focus on casuals, if you want stability focus and cater to the top 10% to 20% but also give the casuals content.

The point should be to try and convert casual players to hardcore players. What WoW is recently doing is converting hardcore players into casuals.

This was a great post.

[LeperHerring]

Nah, that's because the MMO market saturated at that point, making TBC level churn impossible to sustain.

You left you the bit where you provide any kind of facts to figures to back up your opinion.

[Ronduwil]

You left you the bit where you provide any kind of facts to figures to back up your opinion.

You have yet to provide any facts that back up your opinion either. You've established a correlation, but that's not the same thing. His speculation is every bit as valid as yours.

[Osmeric]

Nah, that's because the MMO market saturated at that point, making TBC level churn impossible to sustain. However, they could have handled Cata way better and lengthen the plateau by a lot if they didn't make Cataclysm.

"The fact is, WoW always lost lots of players. In the past, we tended to get as many or more new ones as we lost. Lately, less."

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...70645528641537

"We've always had a lot of churn. Historically we were able to attract more new players."

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...31672934182913

[Ronduwil]

"The fact is, WoW always lost lots of players. In the past, we tended to get as many or more new ones as we lost. Lately, less."

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...70645528641537

"We've always had a lot of churn. Historically we were able to attract more new players."

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...31672934182913

But those new players were hardcore. Also the 220,000 disenfranchised raiders from BC are responsible for 2 million sub losses a year, and it's all LFR's fault. What have I been thinking? All content is catered to casuals now. That's why we've had a new raid every other patch and 0 new dungeons for the entire expansion. Casual all the way!

[vesseblah]

You left you the bit where you provide any kind of facts to figures to back up your opinion.

After TBC launch every single AAA MMORPGs failed to meet their goals and F2P revolution started in FB.

Neither of those are absolute proof either way, but have very strong correlation and would make more sense than any tinfoilhat theory people seem to love.

[Grogo]

I guess blame-wise you can't blame the casuals, they are the targeted demographic now but the main theme being the bar has really lowered, so it it is becoming casuals being the hardcore and the new casuals are just entitled and unaware, and so it will be. Amen.

[vesseblah]

I guess blame-wise you can't blame the casuals, they are the targeted demographic now

Which part of "WoW was casual MMO from day one" you don't understand?

Ten years ago WoW was the easiest MMO around with no death penalties or any of that hardcore grind other games did. Every single expnasion from the launch onwards has been clearly an attempt to keep up with the times and add more features that keep the game more casual friendly than the competition. There is no change of direction or demographic, but a natural continuation of what the game aimed to do when it was started nearly 15 years ago.

[Osmeric]

I guess blame-wise you can't blame the casuals, they are the targeted demographic now but the main theme being the bar has really lowered, so it it is becoming casuals being the hardcore and the new casuals are just entitled and unaware, and so it will be. Amen.

So Grogo, who is more entitled? The casual who is asking Blizzard to cater to a majority customer demographic, or a hardcore who is asking Blizzard to design the game around a minority hardcore demographic?

Obviously, the latter is the one showing "entitlement". The casual is just asking Blizzard to act in their own best interest.

It's kind of odd you can't see this, but, as you say, the entitled are so annoyingly clueless.

[Qly]

I am a casual player, but Blizzard's mistake is to cater to the casual player. You do not focus and cater to casual players. You should focus and cater to your top 10% or top 20% of the playerbase. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have content for casuals, you should have plenty of content for casuals. But you should not focus your game around casuals. Casuals are gamers that have no investment in the game, they will quit if they don't like the game or if they find a better game.

The casual gamer is not the ones laying the foundation of a community, it is usually the top 10% or top 20% of gamers that are. Builds, specs, strats, websites, fansites are usually not created by casual games (with exceptions). Casuals are the ones that consume that content.

A perfect example is a company like Zynga, pretty much the Mecca for super casual gamers. Zynga was flourishing will millions of players. Then it literally all stopped and they almost went bankrupt. Catering to casuals means your game will be extremely volatile and not stable. If you want to make a quick buck then focus on casuals, if you want stability focus and cater to the top 10% to 20% but also give the casuals content.

The point should be to try and convert casual players to hardcore players. What WoW is recently doing is converting hardcore players into casuals.

And how, pray, does Blizzard "cater" to the casuals, theres ton of content for them, bu there have been 3 raids this exp: with 16, 13 and 14 bosses, The heroic bosses while not lasting longer (in weeks) lasted A LOT MORE in "pulls" (there was a post calling it the historical highest). You have challenge modes, you have heroic raids with heroic only bosses, you have the (in the higher tiers) very casual unfriendly brawler's guild

Sure there is content for the casual... lfr? there aren't even new 5 man dungeons... While i agree with what you say i fail to see how blizzard doesn't abide by the rules you laid out

[WeaponXAnimosity]

More like the massive exodus of hardcore progression raiders who burned themselves out by trying too hard to stay elite.

[MoanaLisa]

Everyone needs to ramp back on the hostility a bit. Especially given a subject where people's ideas are set in cement. Everyone is free to go after those ideas but it doesn't need to be hostile, condescending or insulting.

[Guruftw]

Well LFG is nice and all but im not a fan of LFR or CRZ, those things runied the game. That is my opinion!

[Osmeric]

More like the massive exodus of hardcore progression raiders who burned themselves out by trying too hard to stay elite.

There are too few hardcores for their loss to make up any substantial fraction of the former player population.