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  1. #561
    Millennials. Millennials ruined WoW.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz0o9clVQu8

    It's like the old 1951 story The Marching Morons. The whole "colonize Mars" thing is just our plan to solve the Millennials Problem.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marching_Morons

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    I don't know if you can say the casual complaints didn't exist, they created a lot of problems like LFR, LFD (guys that were just bad at PvE were automatically given a group without ever having to learn their class, ninja's could roll on whatever they wanted),
    Not talking about valid concerns that cover all players, but the supposed "gimme loot for free" or "epics should be mailed to me for no effort at the start of month" types of complaints. Those never existed.

    Your other examples like people ninjaing in LFD/LFR was a problem for everybody, even to the hardcore players trying to level up their alts.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  3. #563
    Casuals did not ruin WoW.

  4. #564
    Titan Arbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Of course they are not happy, they got 5.0 with a bajillion dailies after Cata 4.3 and yeah, that caused a massive exodus. But if you think the solution is to return to TBC, you're delusional.
    Actually the exodus started when Blizzard nerfed the Cata Heriocs.

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbsbear View Post
    Actually the exodus started when Blizzard nerfed the Cata Heriocs.
    Idk why, the difficulty level was fine, the queues were just abysmal. something like 40minutes for a dps at one point.

    I didn't mind wiping with strangers as long as they learned from their mistakes

  6. #566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    And yet, it's the whines from wannabe hardcores that gave us early Cata and early MOP. Ironic, isn't it?
    Oh I enjoyed Early Cata & Early MoP, I'm glad they put there foot down in MoP.

  7. #567
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbsbear View Post
    Actually the exodus started when Blizzard nerfed the Cata Heriocs.
    Not according to the developers. You'll excuse me if I'll take their word for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbsbear View Post
    Oh I enjoyed Early Cata & Early MoP, I'm glad they put there foot down in MoP.
    I didn't enjoy either a bit. Having to put aside 2 hours in addition to raiding to get something done is silly.
    MMO player
    WoW: 2006-2020 || EvE: 2013-2020 || FFXIV: 2020- || Lost Ark: 2022-

  8. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    So Grogo, who is more entitled? The casual who is asking Blizzard to cater to a majority customer demographic, or a hardcore who is asking Blizzard to design the game around a minority hardcore demographic?

    Obviously, the latter is the one showing "entitlement". The casual is just asking Blizzard to act in their own best interest.

    It's kind of odd you can't see this, but, as you say, the entitled are so annoyingly clueless.
    Well Osmeric, you gotta admit though regardless if WoW was a new MMO & less Hardcore than Ultima / EQ. Making things more difficult & having people put in more work into it they will mostly stay longer & they will not leave as fast as they do now a days.
    Last edited by Arbs; 2013-09-07 at 05:45 PM.

  9. #569
    Bad players make the game worse by suggesting their bad ideas, not casuals. Casuals are just players who don't invest that much time in a game. You don't need to invest alot of time in game like WoW to experience it all. I know plenty of casuals who have done 13/13 HC ToT. But then there are good and bad casuals of course.

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbsbear View Post
    Well Osmeric, you gotta admit though regardless if WoW was a new MMO & less Hardcore than Ultima / EQ. Making things more difficult & having people put in more work it will stay longer & they will not leave as fast as they do now a days.
    You know that works the opposite way around too right? If you make it hard the people that have only a few hours a day to do thing will quit because they can't get anything done.

    or

    You can also keep people who play one to two hours a day longer without having to offer constant content update because it will take them longer to complete.

    Do you really think Hardcore players take one month to beat a Raid? No if you are in a hardcore guild you will be done in less than a month, just think about it this way, n WoTLK everyone complain about having a whole year of ICC, but the people that played were people that played casually, hardcore gamers had already fully clear ICC by haft way, and some left the game till CATA, blizzard was sitting around collecting cash from the people that haven't completed the raid.
    Last edited by Kioshi; 2013-09-07 at 05:47 PM.

  11. #571
    Define casuals, define ruin and define WoW, through your own experience, which will bring a new set of questions.

    Casuals- no doubt have changed the game and how it is played. However I would argue that even the most elitist of theory-crafters still enjoys exploiting the path of least resistance. Does getting more for less actually harm the overall quality of the game and experience? This relates to 'ruin.'

    Ruin- do the changes we see in the game-play somehow break our traditional views of how the game should be played? Or similarly, just to coin the term, does "casual style" of game-play degrade the experience and fun of the game, for both others and themselves? This relates to the game as a whole.

    WoW- what elements of the game have been put at risk? What specific goals, expectations and accomplishments, of the game, and formerly present, that are no longer being met? This relates back to how casual style has changed the game.

    Given, Casual-style=more for less.
    Okay, so does having more for less actually harm my willingness to play? No.
    Do I value LFR and items associated to a casual nature more than my current game-play? No.
    Therefore I am no longer getting more for less.
    Therefore because the casual-style undermines the value obtained from the game, any accomplishment made outside of the casual style is inefficient and a virtual waste of time.

    Does that ruin a game? No, it changes the game to where your active members of the community are embittered for being treated poorly.

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbsbear View Post
    Actually the exodus started when Blizzard nerfed the Cata Heriocs.
    Let's confuse cause and effect!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbsbear View Post
    Making things more difficult & having people put in more work into it they will mostly stay longer & they will not leave as fast as they do now a days.
    I'm sure you find it comforting to believe that.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/TotalSubs.png
    You clearly see that starting from 2009, the total number of sub-based MMOs plateaus at ~22M before declining. In marketing terms, that means the market is saturated. When a market is saturated, you can only attract new players from other games. Also, you need to reduce the churn, which was huge in BC (the devs discussed that back in the days). So, you can no longer afford a lot of players leaving before lvl 10 like it used to be the case. Fact.
    That makes no sense. That trend is going to track WoW's trend closely because WoW is like half that total. All it says is that the total number of players is declining because WoW is declining. As for market saturation, that makes no sense either. The number of gamers keeps growing, and while WoW is an MMO, it's also just a game. Moreover, it's also just a form of entertainment. In fact, the strength of WoW was that it could attract players that were not gamers at all because it had such strong word of mouth. Today it's the opposite, very few people would recommend WoW and it's more like "oh, I heard of that, is that thing still alive?"

  14. #574
    Casuals are keeping the game alive... Bad clueless dev's are killing it. the fight between good and evil.

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    That makes no sense.
    F2P games. That diagram is about subscriptions, and subscriptions are going away everywhere not just WoW.

    2009 is when Farmville and other FB games had their big breakout.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by Qly View Post
    And how, pray, does Blizzard "cater" to the casuals, theres ton of content for them, bu there have been 3 raids this exp: with 16, 13 and 14 bosses, The heroic bosses while not lasting longer (in weeks) lasted A LOT MORE in "pulls" (there was a post calling it the historical highest). You have challenge modes, you have heroic raids with heroic only bosses, you have the (in the higher tiers) very casual unfriendly brawler's guild

    Sure there is content for the casual... lfr? there aren't even new 5 man dungeons... While i agree with what you say i fail to see how blizzard doesn't abide by the rules you laid out
    There should be exclusive content that casuals can never see unless they convert to hardcore players, pretty much the BC formula. As I said, I was pretty much always a casual, but I wanted to convert to a "hardcore" player to see the content, even though I actually never converted. At the moment there is zero point to being a top player when most players see everything.

  17. #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Idk why, the difficulty level was fine, the queues were just abysmal. something like 40minutes for a dps at one point.

    I didn't mind wiping with strangers as long as they learned from their mistakes
    Same with me, its just there were so many people complaining they were hard, while they actually weren't as you just needed to CC certain mobs.
    Last edited by Arbs; 2013-09-07 at 08:14 PM.

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbsbear View Post
    Same with me, its just there were so many people complaining they were hard, while they actually weren't just needed to CC certain mobs.
    The problem with Cata heroics is that they had so many mechanics that if one person screwed up the group wiped in essence they challenged the weakest member of the group. It did not matter if you had four great players if the other one could not complete mechanics you were going to wipe contrast this with Wrath where the dungeons challenged the strongest players. In a dungeon such as the Halls of Reflection, which was quite difficult until players had out geared it, if one person failed at the mechanics the remaining players were able to use their skill to get through the encounter.

  19. #579
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The problem with Cata heroics is that they had so many mechanics that if one person screwed up the group wiped in essence they challenged the weakest member of the group. It did not matter if you had four great players if the other one could not complete mechanics you were going to wipe contrast this with Wrath where the dungeons challenged the strongest players. In a dungeon such as the Halls of Reflection, which was quite difficult until players had out geared it, if one person failed at the mechanics the remaining players were able to use their skill to get through the encounter.
    So,

    Cata heroics (pre-nerf) = BC heroics

  20. #580
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    We've been here since Day 1.

    I think people misinterpret "casual" to mean "bad player" when that's not true at all. A better description would be: varying skill levels of players that play when time permits.

    I think that I'm a pretty good player and have been playing since September 2005. I used to raid a lot back then when I was a teenager fresh out of High School with no worries in the world but I just don't have time for that anymore. That doesn't make me a bad player. That simply makes me a player that plays less than before.

    I have gotten much better over the years even though I no longer participate in organized raids. Yes, I'm an LFR Raider. I complete anywhere from 0-4 wings per week. Sometimes I don't have enough time and sometimes I just don't feel like playing. Besides work and school, I also like to play other games that require a time investment.

    I guess you could call me a casual but does anything of this make me a bad player? No, not at all. I don't feel casuals are ruining the game.
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