Did casuals ruin WoW and if so how?

[Mormolyce]

There is no way Karazhan was casual content at least it wasn't when we tried to clear it (full clear, first and second week into BC), there where a fair amount of wipes involved before the fights became second nature. TBC was the very definition of casual unfriendly, everything about it was farming either reputation for Heroic Dungeon attunements or mats for raiding and most of the casuals where prolly in normal 5 man dungeons logging in for 1-2 hours at a day or hugging some Sproggans in Zangarmarsch.

As far as I can tell, the majority of casual players PVPed in BC because it was the only kind of content that was accessible.

[Glorious Leader]

Good, solid raids existed long before LFR, it's silly to believe blizz can't make raids without LFR, you seem like a reasonable guy, disagreeing here is just silly. As for socialization returning, definitely possible - just use the system that created it in the first place. As it stands right now, the best routes to progression your character *always* involve teaming up with strangers that you will never meet again, from 1 to 90 and then at 90, unless you can get into regular raids. Zul'Aman definitely was casual friendly, just do the bear and eagle boss and call it a day. Dailies were definitely friendly, it gave people a steady stream of income that didn't exist for many before and they'd take 15 to 30 minutes. Doesn't get more casual than that, and you got cool stuff like bombing run quests which were pretty innovative for the time.

And how were 5 man heroics not casual friendly? A dungeon that took 30 minutes to an hour and that gave you an experience that actually felt like a dungeon. If you're trying to imply that a casual play can't play for 30 minutes, you're just being silly lol.

I guess you're BC experience and mine were much different - I could typically get a group in 10 minutes max, but usually quicker than that. If someone never made friends or was a ninja, or if they played poorly, those were pretty much the only circumstances in which I ever saw someone having trouble with getting a dungeon group. You were saying earlier that MoP is bad for casuals, now you're saying BC was awful for casuals.... let me guess - you think the game has always been bad for casuals, right? Well then how do you explain WoW's massive success over the years?



And not having raiding would kill any sense of progression, one of the core elements of any MMO is progression. If WoW consisted of 5 mans and heroic scenarios and nothing else.... I don't think the game would still be around today.

Are you not listening? The circumstances that allowed them to create raids for like the 1% of people who did them DO NOT EXIST ANYMORE. They have more people than just you and your merry band of brothers to entertain at lvl 90. See you have to consider a very simple principle. OTHER PEOPLE PLAY THIS GAME. Now they may not play it exactly to your liking or to your tastes but they do play it and they need to be entertained. LFR exists to push raiding so that they will be ENTERTAINED with raiding and so that the developers can still make raids in lieu of other max level content. In fact they can focus their efforts on raiding so much that you've been getting non stop "quality" raid content in mists because of it. It's an economic decision and it's a BOON to raiders. You just have to recognize that OTHER PEOPLE PLAY THIS GAME and want to be entertained to. Then you see how big of a friend Blizzard is to you raiders.

Zul Aman is a raid and not casual friendly. Being a raid IMMEDIATELY discounts it as casual friendly. Dailies were not casual friendly we had dallies in mists and well yea that speaks for itself.

5 man heroics in their tbc incarnations were not very casual friendly. They required revered keys (a massive grind in and of itself) and then yes they required you get a group which often fell apart and then often required you to remake or find replacement which in and of itself took hours. MoP is awful for casuals but so was TBC. The success of the game is that it churned subscribers like nobody business and they've always gotten more players than left. If they were actually considerate of casuals who knows how far they've gone. The success of the game is that with two notable exceptions they've been INCREASINGLY casual friendly. TBC was an improvement from vanilla, granted but not much of one and not much of one relative to what we had certainly in wrath but also what we had in cataclysm to a lesser extent. Mists is one example where the developers took a backwards step and regressed the game to something very uncasual friendly. Harder heroic in cataclysm were this to but the solution to that was easy. nerf the dungeons. Don't write a fucking blog telling players they're bad.

No it wouldn't. Not having raiding would suck for you but for lots of people it would be just fine. You can have "progression" without raids. Lot's of players were progressing fine in wotlk and had zero desire to raid or at most did an occassional pug or two. In fact lots of people did that in cataclysm as well and this was apparently a problem for the developers.

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Not saying just remove LFR and replace it with nothing, remove it and give casuals content with meat and potatoes to it. Blizz has done it before and they've got a huge amount of money that they likely aren't putting back into the game, they can do it again if they want to.

Right to do this would mean no more or severly curtailed raids. I assume you like the raids you've been gettting in mists? Big huge raids every 6 months with 13+ bosses? Lots of challenge as well? I assume you love all that crap well once you take lfr away all that goes bye bye and welcome to DS ville every 8-9 months.

[Mormolyce]

Removing LFR would bring back socialization and challenge... core elements that made WoW what it is in the first place.

-Removing LFR wouldn't magically make players more sociable. They were unsociable before LFR as well.
-It's as challenging as ever. If you choose to play the game on the easiest setting that's you're choice, but don't then turn around and complain that the game isn't challenging.
-Challenging content made WoW what it is? That's a fucking laugh. Being more accessible and less grindy than its contemporaries is what made WoW what it is.

[Gungrir]

Not saying just remove LFR and replace it with nothing, remove it and give casuals content with meat and potatoes to it. Blizz has done it before and they've got a huge amount of money that they likely aren't putting back into the game, they can do it again if they want to.

Then they should rather focus on the casual content and less on raids, why should they focus so much time and production value on something that is accessed by only a tiny margin of the player base? Something like bringing in 3-5 5 man dungeons and Isle of Time type content and 1-2 PvP BG's every patch cycle and put in a new raid every now and then to make the 1-5% raiders happy.

That is how it would need to go down.

[Mormolyce]

And trust me when I say LFR has hurt the raiding community - it's much more difficult to find raiders now and many guilds are splitting up because of it, last tier, I was in 4 guilds that split up lol.

I had like 4-5 guilds split up on me between late Wrath and early Cata, long before LFR came along. Guilds split up. Game's old, you're old, deal with it. I hear guilds used to split up all the time in TBC because people would guild hop up the food chain and so the lower guilds could never get out of Kara.

LFR hurt the raiding community? Maybe the very casual people who pugged ICC 10m back in Wrath. Not regular guild raiders. Two kinds of people do LFR exclusively: old raiders who can't commit the time anymore and people who... you would not want to recruit*.

(*No offence to these people, not all of them are idiots and trolls, some are new to the game or just not interested in organised raiding, and that's fine - but they're hardly a promising pool for raid recruitment.)

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And trust me when I say LFR has hurt the raiding community - it's much more difficult to find raiders now and many guilds are splitting up because of it, last tier, I was in 4 guilds that split up lol.

I had like 4-5 guilds split up on me between late Wrath and early Cata, long before LFR came along. Guilds split up. Game's old, you're old, deal with it. I hear guilds used to split up all the time in TBC because people would guild hop up the food chain and so the lower guilds could never get out of Kara.

LFR hurt the raiding community? Maybe the very casual people who pugged ICC 10m back in Wrath. Not regular guild raiders. Two kinds of people do LFR exclusively: old raiders who can't commit the time anymore and people who... you would not want to recruit*.

(*No offence to these people, not all of them are idiots and trolls, some are new to the game or just not interested in organised raiding, and that's fine - but they're hardly a promising pool for raid recruitment.)

[hyphnos]

Not saying just remove LFR and replace it with nothing, remove it and give casuals content with meat and potatoes to it. Blizz has done it before and they've got a huge amount of money that they likely aren't putting back into the game, they can do it again if they want to.

The thing you're overlooking in what Glorious Leader and others are saying is that based on statements by devs and GCs tweets, the entire purpose of LFR was to increase raid participation numbers so that the devs could justify the resources that let them make what was made in Mists, giant raid tiers.

I personally got a tweet reply from GC to a tweet that basically said "LFR = way you justify making more raids" and the reply was basically, "we're not denying that".

Basically, they have admitted the development costs for making giant raids to the exclusion of all else only works if they don't let any content or reward system negatively impact LFR participation because without that, they are under big time pressure to scale back the raiding budget - which the devs don't want to do.

Someday, perhaps, someone will think to ask them what LFR participation proves when it is the only game around for PVE progression and will realize that you can't tell squat about what people want when you are paying and bullying them into doing the type of content you want to make so that you can keep making it.

[Glorious Leader]

The thing you're overlooking in what Glorious Leader and others are saying is that based on statements by devs and GCs tweets, the entire purpose of LFR was to increase raid participation numbers so that the devs could justify the resources that let them make what was made in Mists, giant raid tiers.

I personally got a tweet reply from GC to a tweet that basically said "LFR = way you justify making more raids" and the reply was basically, "we're not denying that".

Basically, they have admitted the development costs for making giant raids to the exclusion of all else only works if they don't let any content or reward system negatively impact LFR participation because without that, they are under big time pressure to scale back the raiding budget - which the devs don't want to do.

Someday, perhaps, someone will think to ask them what LFR participation proves when it is the only game around for PVE progression and will realize that you can't tell squat about what people want when you are paying and bullying them into doing the type of content you want to make so that you can keep making it.

Oh they don't care about what it tells them. That's irrelevant. Design is about taste as much as anything else. LFR allows the developers to design content to their taste regardless of what anyone else thinks. They can keep making raids and in their opinion making the best raids they've ever made and not have to worry about entertaining johnny casual. He should be sated with lfr. After all how dare he turn his nose up at the chosen content of the developers and the tiny minority who share their love.


I bolded the important part though. It's why in all reality we have less options now (past a certain ilvl) then we did in wrath and cata and 90% of whats wrong with mists. Raiders have it so fucking good and it's BECAUSE OF LFR.

[Gungrir]

To be quit honest i got really bored over the years with raiding in general (i got old ) so i really liked what they did with Timeless Isle, roamed it for about 2 hours on test and logged out to not spoil myself too much, from what i saw this is the right direction for Blizzard to advance WoW, i also really liked proving grounds allot, i wouldn't mind if they scaled back raids and put more Timeless Isle like content in.

[RickJamesLich]

Are you not listening? The circumstances that allowed them to create raids for like the 1% of people who did them DO NOT EXIST ANYMORE. They have more people than just you and your merry band of brothers to entertain at lvl 90. See you have to consider a very simple principle. OTHER PEOPLE PLAY THIS GAME. Now they may not play it exactly to your liking or to your tastes but they do play it and they need to be entertained. LFR exists to push raiding so that they will be ENTERTAINED with raiding and so that the developers can still make raids in lieu of other max level content. In fact they can focus their efforts on raiding so much that you've been getting non stop "quality" raid content in mists because of it. It's an economic decision and it's a BOON to raiders. You just have to recognize that OTHER PEOPLE PLAY THIS GAME and want to be entertained to. Then you see how big of a friend Blizzard is to you raiders.

Zul Aman is a raid and not casual friendly. Being a raid IMMEDIATELY discounts it as casual friendly. Dailies were not casual friendly we had dallies in mists and well yea that speaks for itself.

5 man heroics in their tbc incarnations were not very casual friendly. They required revered keys (a massive grind in and of itself) and then yes they required you get a group which often fell apart and then often required you to remake or find replacement which in and of itself took hours. MoP is awful for casuals but so was TBC. The success of the game is that it churned subscribers like nobody business and they've always gotten more players than left. If they were actually considerate of casuals who knows how far they've gone. The success of the game is that with two notable exceptions they've been INCREASINGLY casual friendly. TBC was an improvement from vanilla, granted but not much of one and not much of one relative to what we had certainly in wrath but also what we had in cataclysm to a lesser extent. Mists is one example where the developers took a backwards step and regressed the game to something very uncasual friendly. Harder heroic in cataclysm were this to but the solution to that was easy. nerf the dungeons. Don't write a fucking blog telling players they're bad.

No it wouldn't. Not having raiding would suck for you but for lots of people it would be just fine. You can have "progression" without raids. Lot's of players were progressing fine in wotlk and had zero desire to raid or at most did an occassional pug or two. In fact lots of people did that in cataclysm as well and this was apparently a problem for the developers.

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Right to do this would mean no more or severly curtailed raids. I assume you like the raids you've been gettting in mists? Big huge raids every 6 months with 13+ bosses? Lots of challenge as well? I assume you love all that crap well once you take lfr away all that goes bye bye and welcome to DS ville every 8-9 months.

The circumstances which created raids is likely much stronger than it was when blizz created them back in vanilla and bc, considering that blizz has much more money now then they did back then. Remove LFR and raiding would still be fine (perhaps better), we've gotten quality raids for 8 years without it, not sure how you could assume this despite the lack of overwhelming evidence which suggests you're wrong. As for other people playing the game, of course other people play, I'm saying to give them good content - not just re-hashing what was originally an awesome raid, and neutering it. The game pretty much puts you with random strangers that you will never see again from 1 to 90, and quite a bit at 90 (unless you can get into regular raiding) - while we will never know the full reason why subs are down, this IMO is obviously one of the main reasons. Again, I'm saying, give these people content that's entertaining.

And ZA was puggable, not sure how you can keep saying it was not casual friendly. Do you really think a person that gets invited to a trade chat ZA pug is automatically an elitist? How is joining a group and hitting the "convert to raid" button automatically not casual. As for dailies, they were far more casual then. 30 minutes worth of work, get epics and gold that most players would otherwise have a hard time getting. 5 to 10 dailies, compared to MoP which had like 30 at launch. Now you think casuals can't do 15 to 30 minutes of dailies too?

Nerfing the 5 man dungeons in Cata is what is leading to them being extinct. Nobody finds them fun now, even the players that originally wanted them nerfed. Who actually runs heroic 5 mans after the first week of hitting 90? How about first day? Over nerfing raiding will just end up killing the only other aspect of PvE which draws players to the game like they did with 5 mans.


Not having raiding would suck for all when the game ends lol. If the game lacks progression, there's not much of a reason to ever log in. From there, if you have 5 mans and little else, what happens when the player gets all the gear from the 5 mans? They can't add in harder ones, cuz like you said, some players will whine like they did with Cata. WoW comes to an end shortly after lol.



And like I said, LFR could be removed and all would be right in the world, blizz has made a mistake by trying to build an MMO game around a portion of their fan base that doesn't like MMO's.

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-Removing LFR wouldn't magically make players more sociable. They were unsociable before LFR as well.
-It's as challenging as ever. If you choose to play the game on the easiest setting that's you're choice, but don't then turn around and complain that the game isn't challenging.
-Challenging content made WoW what it is? That's a fucking laugh. Being more accessible and less grindy than its contemporaries is what made WoW what it is.

Removing LFR and encouraging socializing would definitely bring it back. Of course, there will be some that *still* don't want to do it, but an MMO by design is about socializing. Why design an MMO around people that don't like MMO's?

And it's definitely not challenging in all aspects except raiding. I'm not even sure if it's possible to die in 5 mans or questing at this point lol. Just because hard mode raiding exist, doesn't mean that all aspects of the game are a lot harder. WoW was less grindy, but almost all of the content in it according to people on these boards was "cruel to casuals", despite the game being a massive success. So yes, challenging content did make WoW successful.

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The thing you're overlooking in what Glorious Leader and others are saying is that based on statements by devs and GCs tweets, the entire purpose of LFR was to increase raid participation numbers so that the devs could justify the resources that let them make what was made in Mists, giant raid tiers.

I personally got a tweet reply from GC to a tweet that basically said "LFR = way you justify making more raids" and the reply was basically, "we're not denying that".

Basically, they have admitted the development costs for making giant raids to the exclusion of all else only works if they don't let any content or reward system negatively impact LFR participation because without that, they are under big time pressure to scale back the raiding budget - which the devs don't want to do.

Someday, perhaps, someone will think to ask them what LFR participation proves when it is the only game around for PVE progression and will realize that you can't tell squat about what people want when you are paying and bullying them into doing the type of content you want to make so that you can keep making it.

My point is, WoW for many many years did fine with raiding without LFR. Most people I know of that were interested in the game heard about how cool raiding was, as one of the draws. Now if the game had something where you could team up with random strangers and kill ragnaros in a dungeon that's set up for you to win.... I personally don't see that drawing in players.

And if raids were having such a huge impact on blizzard's finances, how could you explain them having billions on reserve? IMO, blizz is skimping out and yes, saving some money by just re-using content, but they are doing a disservice to the fans in the process. Blizz built a reputation on pretty much *not* doing this for a long time, which was how the company got so popular in the first place.

[Gungrir]

The circumstances which created raids is likely much stronger than it was when blizz created them back in vanilla and bc, considering that blizz has much more money now then they did back then. Remove LFR and raiding would still be fine (perhaps better), we've gotten quality raids for 8 years without it, not sure how you could assume this despite the lack of overwhelming evidence which suggests you're wrong. As for other people playing the game, of course other people play, I'm saying to give them good content - not just re-hashing what was originally an awesome raid, and neutering it. The game pretty much puts you with random strangers that you will never see again from 1 to 90, and quite a bit at 90 (unless you can get into regular raiding) - while we will never know the full reason why subs are down, this IMO is obviously one of the main reasons. Again, I'm saying, give these people content that's entertaining.

And ZA was puggable, not sure how you can keep saying it was not casual friendly. Do you really think a person that gets invited to a trade chat ZA pug is automatically an elitist? How is joining a group and hitting the "convert to raid" button automatically not casual. As for dailies, they were far more casual then. 30 minutes worth of work, get epics and gold that most players would otherwise have a hard time getting. 5 to 10 dailies, compared to MoP which had like 30 at launch. Now you think casuals can't do 15 to 30 minutes of dailies too?

Nerfing the 5 man dungeons in Cata is what is leading to them being extinct. Nobody finds them fun now, even the players that originally wanted them nerfed. Who actually runs heroic 5 mans after the first week of hitting 90? How about first day? Over nerfing raiding will just end up killing the only other aspect of PvE which draws players to the game like they did with 5 mans.


Not having raiding would suck for all when the game ends lol. If the game lacks progression, there's not much of a reason to ever log in. From there, if you have 5 mans and little else, what happens when the player gets all the gear from the 5 mans? They can't add in harder ones, cuz like you said, some players will whine like they did with Cata. WoW comes to an end shortly after lol.



And like I said, LFR could be removed and all would be right in the world, blizz has made a mistake by trying to build an MMO game around a portion of their fan base that doesn't like MMO's.

Raid shouldn't be the only progression path, it just shows that you are old (set in your ways) and that WoW is teaching you allot of wrong things. What people are trying to tell you here is simple, they (Blizzard) cannot do Raids for the 1-5 % hardcore's anymore, they cannot excuse such a huge amount of production value for such a few people.

[Glorious Leader]

Raid shouldn't be the only progression path, it just shows that you are old (set in your ways) and that WoW is teaching you allot of wrong things. What people are trying to tell you here is simple, they (Blizzard) cannot do Raids for the 1-5 % hardcore's anymore, they cannot excuse such a huge amount of production value for such a few people.

I cannot make it any more simpler than this. In the past they could excuse it becuase the majority of people playing were still lvling and the churn of subscribers was in their favor and the game was growing. That is no longer the case. Once you acknowledge the principle that OTHER PEOPLE PLAY THIS GAME and expect to be entertained at max lvl you see why lfr is created.

If you refuse to understand this then you are being willfully ignorant. Without lfr raiding becomes DS tiers or worse. If your okay with that then so am I. Bring on the DS and high quality dungeons.

[Mormolyce]

The circumstances which created raids is likely much stronger than it was when blizz created them back in vanilla and bc, considering that blizz has much more money now then they did back then. Remove LFR and raiding would still be fine (perhaps better), we've gotten quality raids for 8 years without it, not sure how you could assume this despite the lack of overwhelming evidence which suggests you're wrong. As for other people playing the game, of course other people play, I'm saying to give them good content - not just re-hashing what was originally an awesome raid, and neutering it. The game pretty much puts you with random strangers that you will never see again from 1 to 90, and quite a bit at 90 (unless you can get into regular raiding) - while we will never know the full reason why subs are down, this IMO is obviously one of the main reasons. Again, I'm saying, give these people content that's entertaining.

You know they didn't actually remove NM and HM when they implemented LFR, right?

[RickJamesLich]

Raid shouldn't be the only progression path, it just shows that you are old (set in your ways) and that WoW is teaching you allot of wrong things. What people are trying to tell you here is simple, they (Blizzard) cannot do Raids for the 1-5 % hardcore's anymore, they cannot excuse such a huge amount of production value for such a few people.

The 1 to 5% number sounds made up, look at Kara, how many do you know that played back then didn't experience that raid? Take out the people that never hit max level and the people that did strictly PvP... who here never saw the place? Also, how does blizzard having more money now mean than when they made those "1% raids" that they can't create as much content? How does that make sense?

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You know they didn't actually remove NM and HM when they implemented LFR, right?

Of course. I'm still saying that removing LFR would be an improvement though

[Hightotemz]

The 1 to 5% number sounds made up, look at Kara, how many do you know that played back then didn't experience that raid? Take out the people that never hit max level and the people that did strictly PvP... who here never saw the place? Also, how does blizzard having more money now mean than when they made those "1% raids" that they can't create as much content? How does that make sense?

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Of course. I'm still saying that removing LFR would be an improvement though

In terms of PVE I personally know a lot of players that will quit once they complete the content in LFR or flexi raid this patch where in the old days you had to at least do the content as it was in one format. This I believe helped keep players active as they always had something else to strive for.

I am also a firm believer that making 10s and 25s equal was there biggest mistake in terms of losing raiders. When cata hit the amount of guilds didnt increase but a lot more became 10man leaving a lot of raiders without a raid spot. Also loads of big communities became small communities because of this change and also lead people to be bored outside of raids especially in 10man guilds and the rest is history.

Kazzak EU is a great example of how a realm thrives when there is a lot of 25 man raiding guilds.
Outland EU will be a great example of what happens to a thriving realm where guilds gave up on 25 man raiding. Was a top 10 ranked realm and now over 50 as people are leaving in droves.
OFC you will see this in all realms where Guild management decided to downsize.

While 10man raiding was good for players to manage guilds as it was less time consuming, it was ultimately bad for the game to peg 10s and 25s as equal and unfortunately it's too late to reverse this change.

[Gungrir]

The 1 to 5% number sounds made up, look at Kara, how many do you know that played back then didn't experience that raid? Take out the people that never hit max level and the people that did strictly PvP... who here never saw the place? Also, how does blizzard having more money now mean than when they made those "1% raids" that they can't create as much content? How does that make sense?

The numbers are not made up those are numbers taken from Blizzard in the TBC era, where Heroic raids didn't exist. The best example would be Naxxramas Vanilla, why do you think they recycled it in LK? Because it was a waste of production value, that's why. Allot of people actually didn't experience Kara 10 man, back then on my server (Blackrock EU) there was a guild progression thread that showed that only a tiny fraction of guilds cleared it.

You can also google it Pre LFR, 500 000 ~ characters were in normal and hardcore from 10~ million players mind you.

The money comes from the casuals, not from the hardcore.

[RickJamesLich]

I cannot make it any more simpler than this. In the past they could excuse it becuase the majority of people playing were still lvling and the churn of subscribers was in their favor and the game was growing. That is no longer the case.

If you refuse to understand this then you are being willfully ignorant. Without lfr raiding becomes DS tiers or worse. If your okay with that then so am I. Bring on the DS and high quality dungeons.

Possibly my last post for the night. Your whole thing with "in the past few people hit max level, but now everyone is hitting it" is a silly assumption. I highly doubt blizzard is using "most people aren't hitting max level" as a reason to make raids, as the two statements are contradictory. Raiding, strictly IMO here, is one of the cool things in wow that made it popular, after hearing about raiding, who wouldnt' want to give it a crack a few times? Now compare that to LFR, imagine describing that to a friend, do you actually think they would want to try it?

Also, how many more times does blizz have to re-use the same raid before even you agree that it's silly? I honestly think they will make "5 man raids" at some point lol.

[Glorious Leader]

Possibly my last post for the night. Your whole thing with "in the past few people hit max level, but now everyone is hitting it" is a silly assumption. I highly doubt blizzard is using "most people aren't hitting max level" as a reason to make raids, as the two statements are contradictory. Raiding, strictly IMO here, is one of the cool things in wow that made it popular, after hearing about raiding, who wouldnt' want to give it a crack a few times? Now compare that to LFR, imagine describing that to a friend, do you actually think they would want to try it?

Also, how many more times does blizz have to re-use the same raid before even you agree that it's silly? I honestly think they will make "5 man raids" at some point lol.

Their is no contradiction and it's not a silly assumption, it's something they've discussed on many levels. They never used it as an excuse to make raids, they made raids because it's the content they played in EQ and in other mmos where the devs came from. They created raids because thats what they did but they never had the same pressing NEED to entertain as many players at max level as they did before. Their audience or many many more memebers of their audience have hit max level. This has created a far more diverse group of people hitting lvl 90 than ever. That diverse group of people (OTHER PEOPLE) need to be entertained. The need exists now because people are at max level where they weren't as many as before. Raids didn't NEED to be economically justified in terms of use and entertainment value for the majority of people playing because the majority of people of playing were still lvling to 60 or 70. That is no longer the case.

I agree reusing the same raid is silly. Creating dungeons takes about as much time and resources as making a raid so I'm okay with raids taking a back seat in favor of dungeons. Bring em on. If it means you get DS for 9 months ENJOY. If it means raid become 5 or 6 boss (at most) endeavors with mostly reused assets and gear being provided outside of the raid I'm all for it. I'm all for raids actually becoming NICHE things but my suspicion is that what that would entail most of you would hate.

Lots of people have explained this to you but I think you are honestly being wilfully ignorant about all of this. Especially when the developer have plainly said LFR JUSTIFIES RAID CONTENT CREATION. I can't find the stupid blue post but it's there.

[RickJamesLich]

The numbers are not made up those are numbers taken from Blizzard in the TBC era, where Heroic raids didn't exist. The best example would be Naxxramas Vanilla, why do you think they recycled it in LK? Because it was a waste of production value, that's why. Allot of people actually didn't experience Kara 10 man, back then on my server (Blackrock EU) there was a guild progression thread that showed that only a tiny fraction of guilds cleared it.

You can also google it Pre LFR, 500 000 ~ characters were in normal and hardcore from 12 million players mind you.

The money comes from the casuals, not from the hardcore.

Blizz saying that 1% did naxxaramas is very different from saying "1 to 5% of the people out there ever raided".


And I can tell you, from my experience, anyone that actually hit max level that wanted to try Kara did. There's a big difference between entering Kara and clearing it, or just trying out some of the bosses. Either way you still raided. Seriously though, if there's anyone on the forums here that never tried Kara back in BC, announce yourselves. Let's see how many respond.


And the money comes from many types of players - guys that never make it past level 20, people who are hardcore, people who only bought vanilla and didn't get any expansions, and people who hit max level but only play casually. My point still remains - removing LFR and replacing it with actual content would be better than keeping LFR in the game and not changing anything else.

[DSRilk]

If something takes more time, it is by definition, harder.

No. No it's not. By definition it is merely more time consuming. Eating at the Melting Pot is not harder than eating at Panara. It just takes longer.

[Glorious Leader]

. My point still remains - removing LFR and replacing it with actual content would be better than keeping LFR in the game and not changing anything else.

I agree. remove lfr. I do not think you will like the consequences (because you know the content to replace it will magically pull itself out of it's own ass) but alright fuck it. Remove the bloody thing. It'll force the developers to develop actual casual content and take time and resources AWAY FROM MAKING RAIDS. I can't believe people are calling for this. I mean I really can't. Especially people who ostensible love raiding.