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  1. #941
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    Yeah, it was boring. And as a warlock... it was a complete pain in the ass to never get heroic spots in dungeons runs because they needed a mage. He was a pure class that could do it better. And if I got to come I just loved competing with a mage for the cloth items

    (It was however liberating to kick ther dps' ass in raids)

    "LFG daily heroic Need mage" *shudder*
    Yeah it's ESPECIALLY poor design if dungeons revolve around CC abilities when only certain classes have said abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    For some, but having some level of coordination at the cost of wiping for some like myself, added in a challenge and made it a lot more fun. Really, do you think the new way, where you always go in and just aoe everything is more interesting?
    I personally enjoy trash that makes you think, TBC implemented this in a very, very crude way by modern standards though. Plus there are better ways to create complexity or difficulty than just "sheep X, sap Y". The world has moved on.
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    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
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    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  2. #942
    Quote Originally Posted by Lotharion View Post
    LFR is an absolute piece of crap, it encourages me to AFK with how bored it makes me. The best times I've had in raids were always about working together with 9 friends to kill a difficult boss, take away the difficulty and there's just no point doing it.
    That is the stupidest excuse I've ever heard. If it's so boring then /leave the group. How is it encouraging you to AFK? Leveling is easier than LFR. Did you AFK through that? Your sense of entitlement encourages you to AFK. If LFR is so boring for you don't do it. That "Queue for Raid Finder" button doesn't just push itself you know... you made the conscious choice to join the group and your responsibility as a good raiding Samaritan is to make the effort. AFKing in LFR is easy is just like all those players who used to AFK battlegrounds because they were still collecting honor for it. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-09-10 at 07:04 AM.

  3. #943
    Casual players didn't ruin WoW. How can they? For wanting to be the way they are? That's legit in my eyes. No, Blizzard ruined the game by listening to casuals and feeding the mule the carrot. In addition to making this one heck of an anti-social game for an MMORPG.
    Last edited by Slant; 2013-09-10 at 06:46 AM.

  4. #944
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    That is the stupidest excuse I've ever heard. If it's so boring then /leave the group. How is it encouraging you to AFK? Leveling is easier than LFR. Did you AFK through that? Your sense of entitlement encourages you to AFK. If LFR is so boring for you don't do it. That "Queue for Raid Finder" button doesn't just push itself you know... you made the conscious choice to join the group and your responsibility as a good raiding Samaritan is to make the effort. Queueing in LFR is easy is just like all those players who used to AFK battlegrounds because they were still collecting honor for it. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
    You sir are completely right.

  5. #945
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Removing LFR would bring back socialization and challenge... core elements that made WoW what it is in the first place.
    No it wouldn't. Socialization and challenge is not going to change by taking away LFR. The only thing you're going to do is make even more people quit. There is still plenty of socialization and challenge in the upper tiers. Heroic raiding is alive and well. We're not getting any socialization and challenge on the lower end because the ramp up to raiding that Heroic Dungeons used to provide is gone. Taking away LFR isn't going to bring it back.

    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Having less players that demand nerfs for everything, and replacing them with people that like MMO's, is a good thing IMO. I definitely think in the long run it would bring players back. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here.
    I honestly have never seen anyone demand nerfs. I've seen players leave because content has become too difficult for their guild to tackle, and I've seen Blizzard put out nerfs to stem the flow of outgoing players, but I have yet to see a casual player demand nerfs. I challenge you to link even five posts off the Blizzard forums where a casual demands nerfs. It's not going to happen.

  6. #946
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Right it wasn't an issue for them OR THE DEVELOPERS who could make raids as much as they wanted and know that players were occupied and busy with lvling. Asking for people who've never touched raiding on a web site primarily populated by members of the raiding community is rich and also confirmation or sample bias. Also in this day and age of lfr that's probably alot harder to find admittedly. In that sense LFR is a pretty good success it exposed so many more people to the raid content.

    Raiding doesn't attract people to the game, the elf on the box or the dragon cinematic does. I know of nobody who bought wow and thought about raiding when they bought it. The enormous expense is NOT JUSTIFIED in any real sense because even if you do hear about all that crap and get a raging hard on the likely hood is that for most people the actual fun of that activity wore off pretty fast and/or the commitment wasn't sustainable for them anyway. Raiding in it's purest non lfr would still not justify it's production cost because it wouldn't HOLD anybody.

    Ok sleep nap time for real after this. I know plenty of people that were into warcraft because of the whole "forming an army" aspect. Keep in mind that before the MMO, warcraft was a huge RTS series that was exactly that. So in that sense, I think raiding being in the game was a huge aspect, if you couldn't ever form an epic army, it would've been a big let down for many players (such as myself). In that sense, I feel it is totally justified. It's like if Call of Duty only had a single player mode... again, while some would still play it and the company would save money, a lot of players would not be interested (and a lot of hype and attracting new players would die in the process).


    Also, there are plenty of people that don't do normal mode raids here. I don't think it's a stretch to assume they didn't do "normal mode raids" in BC, do you agree?


    And I think LFR's "success" came largely from it being the main source for progression for almost all players - there were alternatives, but they paled in comparison to the chance for reward and effort in LFR. Essentially, it was where the rewards were at, so people flocked there. If they put the rewards in a different place, would LFR be successful? I think not.

  7. #947
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    It's ironic that you say raiding will be a niche again, yet bring up DS, which was when LFR was created lol.

    And raiding definitely told a story before, despite being as you call it, a "niche"... typically it was the perfect place because after overcoming an epic challenge, you get much more than loot. Keep in mind the game has been massively successful with this formula since the beginning.


    And LFR not being like regular raiding, IMO is why you don't really see many posts talking about how awesome LFR is - and why the subs are going down. The game can have broader appeal without having to re-hash stuff, as I've pointed it, it's been done many times before. I see you are really sticking to your guns on this whole "blizzard cannot ever make raids unless they make LFR, because it will only be cost effective this way" yet, the opposite has been true
    since launch.
    Because DS is likely what you'd get in terms of reused assets. It may be worse than that. It may be slightly better. Hard to say without access to their internal metrics.

    What you've pointed is that you seem to think content for you (raids) and content for OTHER PEOPLE (remember that principle) can be created simultaneously without one impacting the other. This is obviously not true as the economic realities of creating this massive raids impact everything else in the game to the point that the developers created lfr to justify it's consumption. The content does not magically appear and pull itself out of it's own ass and Blizzard is not made of unlimited resources ESPECIALLY time or qualified people which is the biggest thing for them. Maybe with titan being scaled back they'll be able to do more but at the time of the production of mists and for it's entire cycle (and potentially for the next expansion to) this has not and will not happen. Raiders WON with LFR. Congratulations. The developers sided with you and your favorite content and you got your cake. Enjoy eating it to.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Ok sleep nap time for real after this. I know plenty of people that were into warcraft because of the whole "forming an army" aspect. Keep in mind that before the MMO, warcraft was a huge RTS series that was exactly that. So in that sense, I think raiding being in the game was a huge aspect, if you couldn't ever form an epic army, it would've been a big let down for many players (such as myself). In that sense, I feel it is totally justified. It's like if Call of Duty only had a single player mode... again, while some would still play it and the company would save money, a lot of players would not be interested (and a lot of hype and attracting new players would die in the process).


    Also, there are plenty of people that don't do normal mode raids here. I don't think it's a stretch to assume they didn't do "normal mode raids" in BC, do you agree?


    And I think LFR's "success" came largely from it being the main source for progression for almost all players - there were alternatives, but they paled in comparison to the chance for reward and effort in LFR. Essentially, it was where the rewards were at, so people flocked there. If they put the rewards in a different place, would LFR be successful? I think not.
    You keep going back to I KNOW PEOPLE. As if your anecdotes are meaningful in view of the evidence and statements from the devs. Hey I know someone who thinks he or she is the queen of England. IT MUST BE TRUE! It isn't justified and the developers have TOLD US THIS. They've told us that LFR justifies the content creation. Period. Based SOLELY on player participation and not the mythical fairy tale universe you live in SWP did not pay for itself in terms of entertaining the developers audience. Most people didn't know a fucking thing about raiding. They were stuck lvling and if they managed to hit 60 they had a long fucking grind ahead of them and either quit or rerolled another alt. Raiding had ZERO POINT ZERO appeal to those folks and frankly outside of the tiny minority of people who did the raids it had very little appeal in general. It's not hard to see why. Even if some johnny come lately get's it in his fucking head that raiding is the thing it's likely much more likely that they hit lvl 60 and get burnt out even just trying to get to raid then actually spending time raiding. It's more likely they find out raiding isn't their thing or that they can't commit to the raid schedule or have no desire to deal with 24 other assholes or a whole host of other barriers to entry that they can't or won't overcome. That's what lfr does. It's an attempt to remove as many barriers to entry as possible to make raiding as accessible as possible so it JUSTIFIES ITS PRODUCTION COST. That's the reality. Tell me more fantasies about armies.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-10 at 06:53 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #948
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    No it wouldn't. Socialization and challenge is not going to change by taking away LFR. The only thing you're going to do is make even more people quit. There is still plenty of socialization and challenge in the upper tiers. Heroic raiding is alive and well. We're not getting any socialization and challenge on the lower end because the ramp up to raiding that Heroic Dungeons used to provide is gone. Taking away LFR isn't going to bring it back.


    I honestly have never seen anyone demand nerfs. I've seen players leave because content has become too difficult for their guild to tackle, and I've seen Blizzard put out nerfs to stem the flow of outgoing players, but I have yet to see a casual player demand nerfs. I challenge you to link even five posts off the Blizzard forums where a casual demands nerfs. It's not going to happen.

    Yes it would. Encouraging people to socialize worked in the game before, assuming that it would stop working for no reason is just silly. Would people quit? Yes, just like some quit because of stuff like LFR and other overnerfed content being in the game right now.

    There's no demands for nerfs now because almost everything has been nerfed into the ground. You can get from 1 to 90 without ever having to partner up with somebody for a quest, you can go into dungeons and pull a whole room, you can (as shown in a youtube video) afk through heroic 5 mans, get enough gear to get into LFR, and then AFK everything in LFR. If you played around at the start of Cata, you would've seen those demands for nerfs.

  9. #949
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    .

    There's no demands for nerfs now.
    ToT was NERFED THREE TIMES in addition the ilvl upgrade system (a stealth nerf in itself). In addition to this another difficulty was created to sate the people who found normals to hard. Their are demands for nerfs.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #950
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Raiding is far to time consuming even at lfr level. Raiding in no form is casual friendly. Dungeons and potentially scenarios to are bite sized friendly content. They currently do not offer enough reward motivation to make it so.
    If you honestly think LFR "raiding" is too time consuming you shouldn't play this game, I don't understand how this game HAS to cater to everyone from the single guy to the family man with 2 jobs and 16 dogs... If YOU don't have time that's NOT the game or the game developers problem!
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  11. #951
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    If you honestly think LFR "raiding" is too time consuming you shouldn't play this game, I don't understand how this game HAS to cater to everyone from the single guy to the family man with 2 jobs and 16 dogs... If YOU don't have time that's NOT the game or the game developers problem!
    Actually it ultimately is the developers problem. The players have ZERO responsibility to the game and can leave at a whim. The developers have a responsibility to the company or presumably they do at any rate. I guess they could not give a fuck that johnny casual leaves but I mean they won't last long if they do. They'll be replaced shortly by somebody who does and will bring increased revenue back into the game. Or hell at this point stems the bleeding.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-10 at 07:04 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #952
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    It's ironic that you say raiding will be a niche again, yet bring up DS, which was when LFR was created lol.
    Not really when you understand how it happened. It was rushed into the game at the last minute to prop up the subscriber numbers for the last patch of Cataclysm. It was originally planned for MoP which is why it was such an unfinished mess when it was originally released. I'll leave it to someone else to look up the links for that but they're out there somewhere.

    Raid design without LFR will certainly be less than it is now. Probably much less. There are any number of interviews about that as well.

    Mostly what I see these days are a lot of people that don't realize the fight over LFR is over and has been for some time. Just about everyone who's anyone at Blizzard has said or confirmed that it's not going anywhere. It may be fun to pretend to fight about it on forums but it's really just a waste (as is this post since it won't change anyone's mind). It's really true sometimes that those dedicated to raiding in its purest, most pristine form are their own worst enemies. It's a little ironic though to know that a significant percentage of those who talk about it the loudest don't play and therefore don't really get a voice in the matter.
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  13. #953
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I think you're vastly overestimating LFR's impact on the raiding community.
    I don't. I think the concept of "raiding" has been dealt a merciful deathblow at the end of a lengthy illness, and that five or six years from now it will be almost completely irrelevant to online gaming.

    Consider:

    * Ten years ago the premier raiding experience was still 80 or 100 EverQuest poopsockers zerging a non-instanced boss to death on a schedule that actually had to be negotiated with other raiding guilds on the server.

    * Eight years ago WoW came out and the premier raid became 40 people in an instance.

    * Six years ago BC came out and raids became 25 people, or maybe even a mere 10 just once.

    * Four years ago WOTLK came out, and raids became 25 or 10 people, all the way through.

    * Two years ago LFR came out and the raiding community imploded, based on the amount of QQ heard since.

    * Then one day enough hardcores finally posted enough instantly-downvoted "remove LFR" threads on the WoW general forum and Blizzard finally came to their senses. LFR was ripped out of the game, casuals were all inspired to be like their hardcore heroes, raiding flourished once more as everyone looked on in awe at epics that were actually epic, and WoW abruptly shot up to seventy million subscribers.

    Yeah, no, that last one is just the coma fantasy the "raiding scene" will drool about as it's unplugged from the machine and finally left to die. The course of history has been pretty clear over the years, and it's not going to magically change.

  14. #954
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    If you honestly think LFR "raiding" is too time consuming you shouldn't play this game, I don't understand how this game HAS to cater to everyone from the single guy to the family man with 2 jobs and 16 dogs... If YOU don't have time that's NOT the game or the game developers problem!
    The only thing time consuming about LFR is the queue time which is, for a lot of people, time lost and wasted. It's another reason why putting LFR aside and leaving it to those who want to do it is the best thing and to try to get one's self into a guild for the more organized and social form of raiding.
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  15. #955
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    There's no demands for nerfs now because almost everything has been nerfed into the ground. You can get from 1 to 90 without ever having to partner up with somebody for a quest, you can go into dungeons and pull a whole room, you can (as shown in a youtube video) afk through heroic 5 mans, get enough gear to get into LFR, and then AFK everything in LFR. If you played around at the start of Cata, you would've seen those demands for nerfs.
    I played at the start of Cata, and I saw many players leave. They typically mentioned something like, "The difficulty in this game is just too insane for me to deal with at the end of my day. I'm going to check out SWTOR for a bit and then come back. Then again I may not." More often than not they didn't come back. I don't know of a single one of those people who posted an "I Quit" letter on the Blizzard forums. They just let their subscription lapse and went about their business.

  16. #956
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Mostly what I see these days are a lot of people that don't realize the fight over LFR is over and has been for some time.
    Why you gotta ruin their fun (and mine) for? I mean seriously dude. Giving them the answer like that. Almost feels like cheating.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    The only thing time consuming about LFR is the queue time which is, for a lot of people, time lost and wasted. It's another reason why putting LFR aside and leaving it to those who want to do it is the best thing and to try to get one's self into a guild for the more organized and social form of raiding.
    Time spent in que is pretty bad but it's made worse when the group is shit or you get into a partial run only to have to que again for another run. Actually even when you do kill a boss it's often time lost and wasted as you get jack shit for it other than a bag of dick all and some fairly worthless valor. It's not very casual friendly sorry.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #957
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    If you honestly think LFR "raiding" is too time consuming you shouldn't play this game, I don't understand how this game HAS to cater to everyone from the single guy to the family man with 2 jobs and 16 dogs... If YOU don't have time that's NOT the game or the game developers problem!
    What you fail to understand is that it is the game developers' problem! If I quit the game because it no longer appeals to me I get a few hours per week of my time back and save $15 a month. In the meantime, Blizzard loses my $15 a month. When enough of those $15 a month subscriptions go, the revenue declines. Developers aren't developing just for the sheer joy of pleasing raiders; they also have to feed their families! It is especially their problem when a significant demographic loses interest in their game.

  18. #958
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Developers aren't developing just for the sheer joy of pleasing raiders
    It's better to say Blizzard Activision or the business isn't just developing for raiders only. Ghostcrawler et all I don't know anymore. I think they are seriously stuck on stupid on this and can't imagine that people would turn their nose at raids.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #959
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Why you gotta ruin their fun (and mine) for? I mean seriously dude. Giving them the answer like that. Almost feels like cheating.
    Sorry about that. Lost my head for a moment.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Time spent in que is pretty bad but it's made worse when the group is shit or you get into a partial run only to have to que again for another run. Actually even when you do kill a boss it's often time lost and wasted as you get jack shit for it other than a bag of dick all and some fairly worthless valor. It's not very casual friendly sorry.
    It is for me but I have advantages. My playing partner is a healer so I go in on those queues which are rarely more than a couple of minutes. I understand the problem others face though. I've never really felt the need to have to run LFR either and never really quite sympathize with those heroic types who will do anything for their guild in real life but spend too much time writing petty complaints about it on forums. Lastly, as I've said a few times in the last week and undoubtedly at least once in this thread my LFR runs generally go OK although coming in on a partial run is annoying. But then, I don't spend a ton of time in queue in any case so another queue isn't a huge deal personally.

    Best advice, sleep with a healer. Makes all the difference.
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  20. #960
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It's better to say Blizzard Activision or the business isn't just developing for raiders only. Ghostcrawler et all I don't know anymore. I think they are seriously stuck on stupid on this and can't imagine that people would turn their nose at raids.
    Just wait. The march of history is almost over, when it comes to this topic, and Ghostcrawler and friends will have no one to cater to soon.

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