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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by But I Hate You All View Post
    OH Also to the people saying lfr is not raiding. It is raiding, easy mode but still raiding

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    That does not really make sense. How they should do it is have Normal, Flex all wings, LFR all wings, open week 1. Heroic open once you beat normal
    How about no? See my reply to you above outlining why your reasoning/belief is flawed .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansible View Post
    But it isn't MY Shadow Priest melting Garrosh and gang face when I watch a stream/vid.
    But that isn't seeing the story. That's raiding, and you never said that you wanted to experience raid fights, just that you want to see the lore and story pan out.

    If what you want were to happen, then guess what becomes a reality? If normal/heroic raiders want to see the story as soon as you do, guess what? They actually ARE forced into doing lfr.
    Last edited by Ebonwraith; 2013-09-04 at 09:15 PM.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by But I Hate You All View Post
    Gating is dumb and used as away to falsely extend the life of content. The only thing $15 bucks a mo gets you is access to the servers but if we did not have stuff like lfr and the majority of the player base (Casuals) could not do the raids than we would have alot less subs. Bottom line is this, The people who complain about Casuals do not realize Casuals are the ones that keep this game running and are the vast majority of the player base. Hardcore raiders are a small %
    So how do you explain the first six years of this game where arguably raiding was at its peak and had even less players? You're so delusional the scary part is that you're actually believing what you're saying. You seriously think that if all the whiny LFR heroes just packed up and left that would be it? Blizz would go "oh noes we only have 3 million people playing and we're still wildly successful but we're nothing without little jimmy and his 15 dollars a month! Pull the plug!"?

    Nope.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    Well... I will admit I may have blown all CD's on the bloods on the way to Primordeus while hitting a defense to stay alive while watching others drop like flies...

    Even so, my memories go back to when T15 LFR was first release the success rate was only good when regular raiders were present in all roles and shared their knowledge on how to kill the boss. Now they won't even be there anymore to share their knowledge. Many LFR's since have proven that nonraiders will almost never research the bosses themselves. So with no one there to say how to kill the boss you'll no doubt see stacks well greater than 5 of the failbuff and people still unable to kill the boss.

    Trust me... the fail train is coming.
    So wiping 5 times on a boss makes it a fail-train? Didn´t I read somewhere that Paragon wiped 200 times on lie shen?

    You see, this is the real disconnect. LFR players ( myself included) don´t really hate to wipe. What we hated was the hardcore raiders going off on a rant and calling everyone bad before dropping group anyway. Aside from Galaron for two weeks, I don´t recall there ever being a feeling of ´this is hopeless´ after a wipe... You wiped, a few people commented on what happened, what went wrong.. etc etc. There is nothing wrong with wiping in LFR.. but what made LFR so terrible is the raiders who start crying, never say anything useful, just try to make themselves feel better about themselves ( ha, similar to this forum). You don´t even see many people drop group anymore after a wipe.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    How about no? See my reply to you above outlining why your reasoning/belief is flawed .
    Nothing is flawed I gave my opinion. The game Evolved from what it once was in 2004 and to be honest if they launched World of Warcraft today just like it once was it would utterly fail.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by lewisderp View Post
    I was hoping that they'd push people towards Flex raiding by releasing it quite a bit faster than LFR, but alright, lets hope this helps towards phasing out LFR.
    You should pay more attention. they have already said it will never phase out LFR.. if anything, they said it might possibly replace normal mode.

    LFR is for very different people than Flex. Flex was created more for very casual normal raiders.

  6. #206
    High Overlord sharam's Avatar
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    Funny how most of the people bashing each other are either LFR heroes, going to be flex heroes, have never downed any heroic bosses (or have 1-2 kills in hm). Seriously the amount of stupid in this thread is overwhelming. Who cares when blizz releases content, you'll still get to experience it when its all released, stop whining, and bitching over dumbshit.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    You should pay more attention. they have already said it will never phase out LFR.. if anything, they said it might possibly replace normal mode.

    LFR is for very different people than Flex. Flex was created more for very casual normal raiders.
    They've said in the past that they wouldn't do lots of things.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kektonic View Post
    So how do you explain the first six years of this game where arguably raiding was at its peak and had even less players? You're so delusional the scary part is that you're actually believing what you're saying. You seriously think that if all the whiny LFR heroes just packed up and left that would be it? Blizz would go "oh noes we only have 3 million people playing and we're still wildly successful but we're nothing without little jimmy and his 15 dollars a month! Pull the plug!"?

    Nope.

    1% cleared naxx in pre bc
    Sunwell a minority cleared it in BC
    A minority of guilds are hardcore raiding guilds.

    If you think that hardcore raiders make up most of the player base you are really delusional. Once of the devs said "World of Warcraft would be 'in bad shape' without embracing the casual revolution" http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/23/465...ing-the-casual He works for blizzard.

    The insults lfr hero is bullshit, Are you really that buthurt someone gets to do a easier version of the raid than you and get lesser gear? Please tell me how in the fuck does that have any effect on your game play.

    The game Evolved from what it was 6 years ago, In fact the peak of the games subs was in WOTLK when it was super fucking easy. Cataclysm Blizzard tried to make it harder and well We seen a mass Exodus.

    If all the Casual players left yes the game would go f2p

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    So wiping 5 times on a boss makes it a fail-train? Didn´t I read somewhere that Paragon wiped 200 times on lie shen?

    You see, this is the real disconnect. LFR players ( myself included) don´t really hate to wipe. What we hated was the hardcore raiders going off on a rant and calling everyone bad before dropping group anyway. Aside from Galaron for two weeks, I don´t recall there ever being a feeling of ´this is hopeless´ after a wipe... You wiped, a few people commented on what happened, what went wrong.. etc etc. There is nothing wrong with wiping in LFR.. but what made LFR so terrible is the raiders who start crying, never say anything useful, just try to make themselves feel better about themselves ( ha, similar to this forum). You don´t even see many people drop group anymore after a wipe.
    And those "raiders" are just as bad as the people in lfr who afk, troll, or flat out can't understand or refuse to learn how to actually play their class and do more than 30k dps. When I run lfr to get some valor, I'm silent almost every time, for the entire instance. If we wipe or have a bad strat happening, I whisper the tank (if its a tanking issue) or just say in /i what should be happening to get the boss down. Are there total asshats that queue for lfr just to talk down to others and start arguments? Of course there are, but that has nothing to do with whether or not that person has heroic gear, that has to do with whether or not that person is just an asshole.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    But this is not the case. In previous tiers, a LFR raider will have been grinding LFR in order to gear up for the next tier. In 5.4, he's gearing up for ... what?

    That is the problem, made all the worse by LFR being cleared so quickly, and by the LFR raider (most likely) not having a guild raid team that he has commitments to.

    Yes, the LFR raider can get upgrades on TI. But if he's not planning to do Flex or above, what is the point of those upgrades? They aren't unlocking anything.
    That is the problem at the end of every expansion for every type of player, certainly was the case for DS. I think with the heirloom weapons from Garrosh, they are putting some type of carrot for everyone. but it still isn´t much. The last patch of an expansion always has a ton of players saying ´why bother´.. when they see the green drops from the next expansion.

    What did LFR people do after they killed deathwing in Cata? nothing. I would argue that the fact that Flex mode has wings will be a significant improvement for them. If you are fully geared in TI and LFR gear, doing a wing of Flex mode will be just as fast as doing a wing of LFR . Of course, it all seems meaningless if you are looking at green gear from the next exp. But that is true of almost everyone but the top 1%. There never is much reason to grind gear at the end of an expansion for anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Yes, I understand the design intent. I am wondering why I, as a player, should think I need these upgrades. If I'm not planning to go beyond LFR, what exactly do they get me in terms of value for my time spent?
    Nothing. Once you have killed Garrosh on any level, if you are looking at it from a purely gear perspective, there is no reason to do anything else because the greens in the next exp will wipe away anything you have now. Kill Garrosh and unsubscribe.

    But that is simply not the mentality most of us have. Most of us enjoy the weekly, incremental gains that comes with minor gear upgrades. I like the fact that I can solo Naxx 25, but maybe in another month, i can kill LK10. I like the fact that I can kill the triceretops solo, but maybe next month I can solo the Rexes.

    Gear is always being made obsolete quickly in this game, grinding for gear is always pointless if you look at it closely. But then so is playing a video game in general!

  11. #211
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Oct 22. The day I renew mysub then cancel it again lol.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    That is the problem at the end of every expansion for every type of player, certainly was the case for DS. I think with the heirloom weapons from Garrosh, they are putting some type of carrot for everyone. but it still isn´t much. The last patch of an expansion always has a ton of players saying ´why bother´.. when they see the green drops from the next expansion.

    What did LFR people do after they killed deathwing in Cata? nothing. I would argue that the fact that Flex mode has wings will be a significant improvement for them. If you are fully geared in TI and LFR gear, doing a wing of Flex mode will be just as fast as doing a wing of LFR . Of course, it all seems meaningless if you are looking at green gear from the next exp. But that is true of almost everyone but the top 1%. There never is much reason to grind gear at the end of an expansion for anyone.
    Gearing up and then ultimately starting over again in the next expansion has been what raiding entails since 2004, what are you trying to say here, Garrosh should drop weapons that are bis for the rest of WoW? I speak on my behalf and the behalf of the guildmates I raid with that the end of an expansion is not "oh look greens are replacing our awesome raid epics, why did we even bother?" It's "Sweet, new expansion, new world, new quests, new dungeons, new raids, new everything. Lets have an awesome time together once again!" I feel like there's a disconnect between people who actually raid and those who don't, but do lfr or wish that they did raid n/h. My guildmates and myself do not raid to get gear, to get ilvls. We raid to have an awesome time together, using teamwork to accomplish a goal together. Gear is a means to that end, not the end itself. Player A sees a boss die, and runs over to loot it and see if he gets to have higher ilvl. I dont raid with people like this. Player B sees the boss die, and nerdscreams go out in vent/mumble because we finally killed the bastard. Those purples he dropped will help us on the next boss in our way, not make us super leet pros who like to show off our gear.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    That is the problem at the end of every expansion for every type of player, certainly was the case for DS. I think with the heirloom weapons from Garrosh, they are putting some type of carrot for everyone. but it still isn´t much. The last patch of an expansion always has a ton of players saying ´why bother´.. when they see the green drops from the next expansion.

    What did LFR people do after they killed deathwing in Cata? nothing. I would argue that the fact that Flex mode has wings will be a significant improvement for them. If you are fully geared in TI and LFR gear, doing a wing of Flex mode will be just as fast as doing a wing of LFR . Of course, it all seems meaningless if you are looking at green gear from the next exp. But that is true of almost everyone but the top 1%. There never is much reason to grind gear at the end of an expansion for anyone.
    The problem has reached an acute stage this time.

    First, LFR allows anyone to "see the content" quickly. If you want to, you'll be able to kill the end boss of the expansion on Oct 22, six weeks after the tier is released.

    Now, DS was like this, but in DS there was still an expectation that people would advance on to higher raid modes. But with MoP, we've had an entire expansion of people being ok with just doing LFR. Do they have any motivation to get back into the guild raiding scene? I sure don't. Heirlooms from Garrosh have zero motivating effect for me.

    Blizzard is just about betting the farm that lots of these people will want to advance to Flex. If they don't, the whole tail end of this expansion will collapse like a house of cards.

    And something else...

    I enter every expansion with a finite supply of give-a-damn. MoP, for some reason, has been burning it unusually rapidly. I have very little care left for what happens in the expansion. The ersatz reward scheme of pretty purple pixels with incrementally larger numbers has lost its allure. The idea of reaching my own personally defined endpoint and saying "done!" is looking more and more attractive.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-09-04 at 09:37 PM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Dextar View Post
    It seems to me like you're just terrible at managing your time properly. I'm married, I have two small children and I'm a full time student (with a 3.8 GPA) and I'm in a US #64 ranked guild. I still go out to the movies with my wife, hang out with friends, spend time with my children, and raid on a high end level all because I manage my time well. If your wife making dinner 30 minutes late causes you to miss raid, then find a guild with a later start time for raids (my raid group starts at 8:30pm my time and runs until 11:30pm) or make dinner yourself so it won't be late.

    Being a hardcore raider doesn't require a ton of time anymore, there are plenty of high end raiding guilds that raid 9-12 hours a week you just need to have the skill to be part of their team. While I will say LFR is nice for the people who really don't have the time or want to commit to raiding but it's also about skill, 90% of the players in LFR wouldn't last in high end raiding guilds but it's just due to being lazy and not applying themselves. There are plenty of resources out there for people to learn but they just want to be handed gear and carried along, LFR has been like that since it launched.
    it isn´t about the amount of time, it is about SCHEDULING. I already said I play more than than 9 hours a week. It isn´t about being good, or being part of a ´team´ ( lol).. It is about scheduling your real life around a rigid schedule in a video game. For most of us.. it is just absolutely incredible that people schedule real life around a video game. that people tell friends ´sorry 8pm to 11pm is offlimits on tues wed an thurs.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    My guildmates and myself do not raid to get gear, to get ilvls. We raid to have an awesome time together, using teamwork to accomplish a goal together. Gear is a means to that end, not the end itself.
    That reward is absent from LFR. I don't know any of the others in the raid, nor do I care about them. I'm sure the devs know about this problem, and are now realizing what a mistake they've made in pushing people to LFR.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by But I Hate You All View Post
    1% cleared naxx in pre bc
    Sunwell a minority cleared it in BC
    A minority of guilds are hardcore raiding guilds.

    If you think that hardcore raiders make up most of the player base you are really delusional. Once of the devs said "World of Warcraft would be 'in bad shape' without embracing the casual revolution" http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/23/465...ing-the-casual He works for blizzard.

    The insults lfr hero is bullshit, Are you really that buthurt someone gets to do a easier version of the raid than you and get lesser gear? Please tell me how in the fuck does that have any effect on your game play.

    The game Evolved from what it was 6 years ago, In fact the peak of the games subs was in WOTLK when it was super fucking easy. Cataclysm Blizzard tried to make it harder and well We seen a mass Exodus.

    If all the Casual players left yes the game would go f2p
    If by casual players, you mean people like me, and not your usual lfr crowd of afkers, trolls, and antagonizers, then yes, WoW would be in a bad spot. Casual =/= lfr only players. I'm a casual, and I finished ToT in March on a 2 nights a week, 3 hours a night raid schedule.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Naidia View Post
    So many difficulties, I mean more to do is good but, more of the same... ><
    There is no reason for anyone to do more than 2 levels at the same time. If you are a normal raider, then you do 3 bosses of flex, and then normal. If you are a flex raider, you do Flex and then LFR when it is released.

    Everyone should have their ´level´.. and then kill a few bosses from another level, either one up, or one down...

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That reward is absent from LFR. I don't know any of the others in the raid, nor do I care about them. I'm sure the devs know about this problem, and are now realizing what a mistake they've made in pushing people to LFR.
    Well lfr was never made to be like normals in the first place. The intent behind lfr was and always has been to show those who didn't get to raid in classic > 4.3 what raiding is like, a little taste, so that they could see what happens in the game's story, and perhaps entice them to try normal raiding. While I have no doubt that it succeeded this goal in some small way, it failed much harder than it succeeded. People who only do lfr was not Blizzard's intent, for the very reason you point out, its a clusterfuck of trolls, idiots and assholes all thrown together to accomplish something. When in the history of ever has that ever been successful?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by But I Hate You All View Post
    1% cleared naxx in pre bc
    Sunwell a minority cleared it in BC
    A minority of guilds are hardcore raiding guilds.

    If you think that hardcore raiders make up most of the player base you are really delusional. Once of the devs said "World of Warcraft would be 'in bad shape' without embracing the casual revolution" http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/23/465...ing-the-casual He works for blizzard.

    The insults lfr hero is bullshit, Are you really that buthurt someone gets to do a easier version of the raid than you and get lesser gear? Please tell me how in the fuck does that have any effect on your game play.

    The game Evolved from what it was 6 years ago, In fact the peak of the games subs was in WOTLK when it was super fucking easy. Cataclysm Blizzard tried to make it harder and well We seen a mass Exodus.

    If all the Casual players left yes the game would go f2p
    I want you to visualize 25 random people queuing into normal Lady DW. Not a watered down lfr version with non-important mechanics, the actual fight. Now I want you to tell me without lying to yourself that you believe 25 people who can randomly queue up would have been able to kill DW. If you think that, you're either lying/trolling, or extremely dense. Wotlk MAY have been easier, but that doesn't mean that the people who actually DID raids back then were as daft as the random people who queue up for lfr nowadays. If you had no experience in wotlk and wanted to join an icc pug, you better be able to prove you weren't stupid/bad at your class. Hell, you could be turned down by gearscore alone, regardless of your defenses that you were a capable player.
    Last edited by Ebonwraith; 2013-09-04 at 09:54 PM.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    I want you to visualize 25 random people queuing into normal Lady DW. Not a watered down lfr version with non-important mechanics, the actual fight. Now I want you to tell me without lying to yourself that you believe 25 people who can randomly queue up would have been able to kill DW. If you think that, you're either lying/trolling, or extremely dense. Wotlk MAY have been easier, but that doesn't mean that the people who actually DID raids back then were as daft as the random people who queue up for lfr nowadays. If you had no experience in wotlk and wanted to join an icc pug, you better be able to prove you weren't stupid/bad at your class. Hell, you could be turned down by gearscore alone, regardless of your defenses that you were a capable player.
    25 man Lady DW was a joke considering: You got teir from running heroics and the ICC buff. Hell you could get full raid gear from running heroics now days you have to do LFR for it. In WOTLK all people cared about was your GS and achievement, You could down load a mod to fake the achievement. Hell I played on Mal'ganis than people with High gear scores and the achievement still fucking failed.

    But like I said before a Causal player could run heroics for Frost badges to get Full t10. These days you have to do lfr and face the RNG god, Oh and heroics are totally fucking useless now days.
    Last edited by But I Hate You All; 2013-09-04 at 10:00 PM.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaq View Post
    And frankly that was too long as it was.

    Stretching out LFR's release just because some "hardcores" whined about how they felt they had to run LFR to gear up for normals, after putting massive effort to make certain LFR gear wasn't really worth hardcore raiders having in the first place, is kind of a slap in the face to the vast majority of the people who play the game and who LFR is for. "Oh, you can See The Content...Over Six Weeks."

    And they wonder why people keep unsubbing hand over fist.
    And then Blizzard goes on to say that they get rises in sub numbers when patch's release. I can barely see what for, perhaps some heroic raiders returning to try and world/server first? It's not worth it for any casual to return for week 1 or 2 at all unless they plan to min max and get into the normal/heroic game late.

    What I find most boggling is that huge ilvl disparity between raid finder and flex SoO loot between heroic and heroic thunderforged ToT loot, and normal SoO loot. It's like they tried to make it seem not very worth it to run, though as some self entitled people have exclaimed, they would run flex AND normal mode on their mains and alts week 1 to get the op trinkets and 4sets for heroic progression week 2.

    On the other hand, the people that the content is aimed for (normal raiders who actually kill normal at a progressed pace and heroic raiders who do the same) will have about the same length of time (4-6 lockouts) to progress to and kill garrosh. Is this a valid excuse to gate the majority of the raiding community because certain people need to feel good about their first of many garrosh kills (other than killing him on 1-3 difficulty levels higher than a flex or a raid finder raider)? No. It's not It's a slap to the face to those raiders. Hell, most of the time, I'm on the side with defending the hardcores or the normal raiders, but this is bull.
    Reduce- Iconic class abilities, complexity and meaningful rotations, usefulness of any one class in a raid group
    Reuse- A continent from 3 expansions ago, a story arch from 3 games ago, characters that would otherwise be dead
    Recycle- A beaten to death plot-line, the nostalgia goggles for TBC, bossfight mechanics that make patchwerk seem complex
    The three R's of Warlords of Draenor and that doesn't even mention flying, #savekarabor, blizzard store, tier to tier ilvl skips.

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