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  1. #221
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    Well lfr was never made to be like normals in the first place. The intent behind lfr was and always has been to show those who didn't get to raid in classic > 4.3 what raiding is like, a little taste, so that they could see what happens in the game's story, and perhaps entice them to try normal raiding. While I have no doubt that it succeeded this goal in some small way, it failed much harder than it succeeded. People who only do lfr was not Blizzard's intent, for the very reason you point out, its a clusterfuck of trolls, idiots and assholes all thrown together to accomplish something. When in the history of ever has that ever been successful?
    While this is all true. It is far far far to late for them to go back now. I used to be a hardcore raider. Now days I am one of the people who only does lfr. I renew my sub, clear it and then cancel it again. But like i said its to late to go back. They change being able to do that now and my sub will never be renewed.

    Blizzard fucked up but there is nothing they can do about it now. They will just have to deal with subs jumping up and down depending on now fast they put out content. Or lose the million people who play like i do.
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  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    it isn´t about the amount of time, it is about SCHEDULING. I already said I play more than than 9 hours a week. It isn´t about being good, or being part of a ´team´ ( lol).. It is about scheduling your real life around a rigid schedule in a video game. For most of us.. it is just absolutely incredible that people schedule real life around a video game. that people tell friends ´sorry 8pm to 11pm is offlimits on tues wed an thurs.
    To be fair, it's not really any different than playing a sport. I used to play Hockey 3-4 times a week(2x training 2x games) and I would absolutely schedule my other real life stuff around that, now that I'm a bit older I use that time for WoW. It's not a huge commitment, but if you can play 10-12 hours a week you can definitely raid normal+, you just need to want to... Clearly you don't. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't try and make up excuses for it.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by lewisderp View Post
    They've said in the past that they wouldn't do lots of things.
    That is just stupid. There is no argument to be made for it replacing LFR other than heroic raiders feeling that both are ´beneath them´.

    1. LFR has no griefable mechanisms - There is no way a single player in LFR can wipe the group unless it is very very over the top. because it is anonymous, this is important. A lot of mehcanisms that a griefer could use are either toned down to nothing, or completely removed in LFR In Flex, every mechanism is intact. Because the group is built by players, there is a social awareness that prevents griefing. This is the reason the Flex feels much more like normal mode than LFR does. Some of the reason mechanisms are removed from LFR are to make it easier, but a bigger part of the reason is just anonymous griefing.

    2. Scheduling - Another big draw for LFR is that you can do a wing in 45 minutes, whenever you happen to log in. There is no scheduling involved. A lot of people, like myself, simply do not want to have to deal with scheduling a game. With LFR, I log in, I que, I raid, I am out.. Nobody is going to get angry if I am not online Wednesday at 8pm and I am the main tank.

    3. Complexity - LFR is built with strangers in mind, and without a real leader being needed. Even forming groups for lie shen is about as far as the devs can push the envelope with a complete group of strangers. With Flex mode, someone is forming the group and will be leader.. specfic assignments can be easily given. In LFR, there is nothing that can cause one player to tell another player what to do... I mean, think about it.. the longest delays in LFR are waiting for an egg team to be formed.. With a Flex group, the leader can control everything including cooldowns and groups. And because the group is formed socially, there is some force behind that leadership. In LFR... it would be almost impossible for someone to force someone else to be on the egg team.. the person doing the forcing would probably be more likely to be kicked than the one who was hesitent to do it.

    In the end.. it is all about the social factor. Having a group that is put together by people has a social awareness that allows for an increased difficulty that can´t be found in LFR. And conversely, automatic queues in LFR is a huge perk for people who don´t want to schedule around a game.

    Both give very real benefits to the game for different types of players

    Now quickly.. show me the differences between Flex Mode and normal mode that prevent them from being merged. LFR and Flex have very different audiences based on how they play the game. There is much closer overlap between Flex and normal.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by But I Hate You All View Post
    25 man Lady DW was a joke considering: You got teir from running heroics and the ICC buff. Hell you could get full raid gear from running heroics now days you have to do LFR for it. In WOTLK all people cared about was your GS and achievement, You could down load a mod to fake the achievement. Hell I played on Mal'ganis than people with High gear scores and the achievement still fucking failed.
    I'm sorry, what? For starters, the icc player buff was not there from the beginning, just like the 20% nerf to ToT isn't active until 5.4. Also, tier from heroics? lolwhat? But that's beside the point. My point is when you consider that people who did any form of raiding in Wotlk actually had to deal with the REAL mechanics of a boss, and not an "lfr" version where they don't even matter, you'll understand that even those who raided 10m normals in wotlk were infinitely better than today's run of the mill lfr only player. Do you know how many people in lfr don't know that Durumu's force of will actually kills you in normal throne? TONS. Just like the people who get tracking on them and sit and attack the boss until beam phase. Guess what, that kills you to attrition in normal, and Durumu fucking nukes the entire raid on heroic if you don't finish spectrum phase in 80 seconds.

    Bottom line, you can't compare any raiding from the past with lfr and be taken seriously by people who raided back then and know what it was like, and know what lfr is like.

  5. #225
    This is great, Flex-mode on Wednesday then Normal-mode on Thursday for my guild.

    Not at all surprised about the whine from entitled casuals, if you cant wait to see the new raid then get ready for normals or stop whining.

  6. #226
    Dreadlord Manabomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    Well lfr was never made to be like normals in the first place. The intent behind lfr was and always has been to show those who didn't get to raid in classic > 4.3 what raiding is like, a little taste, so that they could see what happens in the game's story, and perhaps entice them to try normal raiding. While I have no doubt that it succeeded this goal in some small way, it failed much harder than it succeeded. People who only do lfr was not Blizzard's intent, for the very reason you point out, its a clusterfuck of trolls, idiots and assholes all thrown together to accomplish something. When in the history of ever has that ever been successful?

    - - - Updated - - -



    I want you to visualize 25 random people queuing into normal Lady DW. Not a watered down lfr version with non-important mechanics, the actual fight. Now I want you to tell me without lying to yourself that you believe 25 people who can randomly queue up would have been able to kill DW. If you think that, you're either lying/trolling, or extremely dense. Wotlk MAY have been easier, but that doesn't mean that the people who actually DID raids back then were as daft as the random people who queue up for lfr nowadays. If you had no experience in wotlk and wanted to join an icc pug, you better be able to prove you weren't stupid/bad at your class. Hell, you could be turned down by gearscore alone, regardless of your defenses that you were a capable player.
    Obviously it was successful because the majority of raiders still run it (Against their will? Probably, but a lot of normal and heroic raiders I know refuse to que it and do just fine in the gearing game). More importantly, there is a majority of raiders who do lfr, and there is some overlap between heroic and normal raiders, that community is still the largest, despite housing certain idiots.

    More importantly, Lady DW was a joke. A plain, 100% bloody joke. Normal 25? You could pug that on a monday night with 40% noobs, idiots or asshats and still manage passed saurfang. ICC was not nearly as hard as anyone or everyone thinks it was, especially considering the gearing system at the time for tier pieces. Perhaps your server had more idiots than good players? Well I pity you, because that's basically all Blizzard's fault for keep transfers 25$ while having an empty server crisis that's been running rampant for 5 years.

    Not only are you wrong about Lady DW 25 normal, you'd probably be wrong about most heroics in icc, especially the first wing, and the first 2 bosses in plague and the first boss in frost. They were a joke for the most part. And to think, my entire ICC experience was pugging.
    Reduce- Iconic class abilities, complexity and meaningful rotations, usefulness of any one class in a raid group
    Reuse- A continent from 3 expansions ago, a story arch from 3 games ago, characters that would otherwise be dead
    Recycle- A beaten to death plot-line, the nostalgia goggles for TBC, bossfight mechanics that make patchwerk seem complex
    The three R's of Warlords of Draenor and that doesn't even mention flying, #savekarabor, blizzard store, tier to tier ilvl skips.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    Obviously it was successful because the majority of raiders still run it (Against their will? Probably, but a lot of normal and heroic raiders I know refuse to que it and do just fine in the gearing game). More importantly, there is a majority of raiders who do lfr, and there is some overlap between heroic and normal raiders, that community is still the largest, despite housing certain idiots.

    More importantly, Lady DW was a joke. A plain, 100% bloody joke. Normal 25? You could pug that on a monday night with 40% noobs, idiots or asshats and still manage passed saurfang. ICC was not nearly as hard as anyone or everyone thinks it was, especially considering the gearing system at the time for tier pieces. Perhaps your server had more idiots than good players? Well I pity you, because that's basically all Blizzard's fault for keep transfers 25$ while having an empty server crisis that's been running rampant for 5 years.

    Not only are you wrong about Lady DW 25 normal, you'd probably be wrong about most heroics in icc, especially the first wing, and the first 2 bosses in plague and the first boss in frost. They were a joke for the most part. And to think, my entire ICC experience was pugging.
    Both of you are not getting the point. The people who you see in today's lfr are not capable (generally) of doing anything but tunneling the boss until either they die or it does. I'm not calling DW hard, for fucks sake. I'm saying 25 random people who have never seen the fight, don't know ANYTHING about it or the mechanics, or ANY strat whatsoever, would not be able to clear it. Reading comprehension is lacking here.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    And those "raiders" are just as bad as the people in lfr who afk, troll, or flat out can't understand or refuse to learn how to actually play their class and do more than 30k dps. When I run lfr to get some valor, I'm silent almost every time, for the entire instance. If we wipe or have a bad strat happening, I whisper the tank (if its a tanking issue) or just say in /i what should be happening to get the boss down. Are there total asshats that queue for lfr just to talk down to others and start arguments? Of course there are, but that has nothing to do with whether or not that person has heroic gear, that has to do with whether or not that person is just an asshole.
    Agreed, sorry if I said it wrong.

    90% of hardcore raiders in LFR are not assholes
    but 90% of the assholes in LFR are in raid gear.

    I do agree that LFR will be ´harder´ in 5.4 without the raiders. Definitely as far as tanks go. But I think myself, and many LFR people, do not mind ´hard´.. or wiping.. or repeated wiping nearly as much as we mind the toxic people, who are mostly raiders. Just read the forums.. nobody complains about wiping in LFR.. what you hear most is about the people who rant after wiping.. and it is like this thread.. I´ve read 2 or 3 people raiders here talking about their experiences with ´derps´ who wipe in LFR.

    The raiders almost counter themselves. Some say LFR is way too easy, and should give no rewards and isn´t real raiding.. others talk about the derps who wipe in it... other say that it is a ´fail train´ if we wipe 5 times (how many guilds clear a boss with less than 5 wipes?).. etc etc etc.

    It really is like the old George Carlin joke. Anyone who is driving faster than you is a raving lunatic, and anyone driving slower than you is a moron.

    I personally do not like LFR that much. But I understand exactly why it is in the game and why it is set to the difficulty it is ( mechanisms that are griefable need to be removed). I am excited for flex mode. Mainly to raid with all the mechanisms in place, but also because if I miss a week, or I am late by 30 minutes, it is not the end of the world.

  9. #229
    Dreadlord Manabomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    I'm sorry, what? For starters, the icc player buff was not there from the beginning, just like the 20% nerf to ToT isn't active until 5.4. Also, tier from heroics? lolwhat? But that's beside the point. My point is when you consider that people who did any form of raiding in Wotlk actually had to deal with the REAL mechanics of a boss, and not an "lfr" version where they don't even matter, you'll understand that even those who raided 10m normals in wotlk were infinitely better than today's run of the mill lfr only player. Do you know how many people in lfr don't know that Durumu's force of will actually kills you in normal throne? TONS. Just like the people who get tracking on them and sit and attack the boss until beam phase. Guess what, that kills you to attrition in normal, and Durumu fucking nukes the entire raid on heroic if you don't finish spectrum phase in 80 seconds.

    Bottom line, you can't compare any raiding from the past with lfr and be taken seriously by people who raided back then and know what it was like, and know what lfr is like.
    The sad part is, the era in which you are referencing (wotlk, specifically ICC, but I will go to example ToGC) was probably one of the easiest era's in all of WoW raiding. Normal mode was catered to the lowest skilled of most players, especially in 10 man. You could get your tier all from a badge of frost vendor for normal mode, then proceed to get tokens from 25 and 10h to upgrade to sanctified and 25h got heroic sanctified. It was a combination of catering to a casual crowd that was brought in with wotlk and a gearing system that would facilitate these casuals, but only caused everyone to be over-geared for already easy content.

    At that time, 2-3 weeks in icc you could pug to putress and blood queen easily on 10n and saurfang on 25n. This is common knowledge for anyone on any decently populated server at the time. If you were stuck on a low population realm? Well, A) Yeah, it's sorta blizzard's fault for keeping server xfers 25$ when they have had an empty server problem for 5 years and B) Your experience=/= the real experience. Does it take rolling on one of the highest pop realms to get the real experience? That should be a no brainer, because the highest population pve hubs always house scores of pugs, guilds and groups of people always recruiting, pugging and making ends meet. It's a shame a lot of this community misses out on that.
    Reduce- Iconic class abilities, complexity and meaningful rotations, usefulness of any one class in a raid group
    Reuse- A continent from 3 expansions ago, a story arch from 3 games ago, characters that would otherwise be dead
    Recycle- A beaten to death plot-line, the nostalgia goggles for TBC, bossfight mechanics that make patchwerk seem complex
    The three R's of Warlords of Draenor and that doesn't even mention flying, #savekarabor, blizzard store, tier to tier ilvl skips.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    Gearing up and then ultimately starting over again in the next expansion has been what raiding entails since 2004, what are you trying to say here, Garrosh should drop weapons that are bis for the rest of WoW? I speak on my behalf and the behalf of the guildmates I raid with that the end of an expansion is not "oh look greens are replacing our awesome raid epics, why did we even bother?" It's "Sweet, new expansion, new world, new quests, new dungeons, new raids, new everything. Lets have an awesome time together once again!" I feel like there's a disconnect between people who actually raid and those who don't, but do lfr or wish that they did raid n/h. My guildmates and myself do not raid to get gear, to get ilvls. We raid to have an awesome time together, using teamwork to accomplish a goal together. Gear is a means to that end, not the end itself. Player A sees a boss die, and runs over to loot it and see if he gets to have higher ilvl. I dont raid with people like this. Player B sees the boss die, and nerdscreams go out in vent/mumble because we finally killed the bastard. Those purples he dropped will help us on the next boss in our way, not make us super leet pros who like to show off our gear.
    I actually argued exactly your point and agree with you completely. I was trying to tell the other guy to try to block the ilvl stuff out of his head and just enjoy the next 6 months without focusing on the fact that most of our gear will be useless in 6 months..

    Maybe you missed the news about Garrosh´s weapons - On normal and heroic modes ( flex??) Garrosh is going to drop BOA heirloom weapons that actually scale through the next expansion. they certainly won´t be used in the first tier of next expansions raids, but even still, that is a big change from what we have seen in the past.

  11. #231
    Stood in the Fire Kanariya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Plastico View Post
    No it's not fine. It's stupid and blizzard catering to the hardcore crowd again as per usual.
    In what way are normal mode raiders hardcore? Seriously, casuals raid normal modes too. You sound like you just want everything handed to you.

  12. #232
    Banned But I Hate You All's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    I'm sorry, what? For starters, the icc player buff was not there from the beginning, just like the 20% nerf to ToT isn't active until 5.4.
    ICC buff was added in March 2010. ICC was added in Dec 08, 2009 and normal mode was gated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    Also, tier from heroics? lolwhat? But that's beside the point.
    No point really, You must have forgot about http://www.wowhead.com/item=49426/emblem-of-frost You got 93 a week.

    Your T10 gear of any variety requires badges in the following quantities:

    Gloves - 60 Emblem of Frost
    Shoulders - 60 Emblem of Frost
    Head - 95 Emblem of Frost
    Chest - 95 Emblem of Frost
    Legs - 95 Emblem of Frost

    The gear can be purchased from your respective armor merchants.

    The T10.2 can be purchased by turning in your T10 piece and a boss trophy.

    For the full T10 5-piece it requires 405 Emblem of Frost.

    So yea You must have forgot about that LOL WHAT?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    My point is when you consider that people who did any form of raiding in Wotlk actually had to deal with the REAL mechanics of a boss, and not an "lfr" version where they don't even matter, you'll understand that even those who raided 10m normals in wotlk were infinitely better than today's run of the mill lfr only player.
    IDk I seen lots of people fail at the most easiest mechanics Hegans dance, not stacking behind ice blocks, not biting other players, standing in bad shit, not stacking, not spreading out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    Do you know how many people in lfr don't know that Durumu's force of will actually kills you in normal throne? TONS. Just like the people who get tracking on them and sit and attack the boss until beam phase. Guess what, that kills you to attrition in normal, and Durumu fucking nukes the entire raid on heroic if you don't finish spectrum phase in 80 seconds.
    There has always been people who expect to be told how the fight is spouse to go that is nothing new, LAzy people and bads have always been in this game

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    Bottom line, you can't compare any raiding from the past with lfr and be taken seriously by people who raided back then and know what it was like, and know what lfr is like.

    Bottom line back in WOTLK people could get full tier raid gear from heriocs. Today the only way to get that is do LFR or normal mode. The game Evolved, if we did not have LFR people would be running heroics to get their Tier gear.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    The sad part is, the era in which you are referencing (wotlk, specifically ICC, but I will go to example ToGC) was probably one of the easiest era's in all of WoW raiding. Normal mode was catered to the lowest skilled of most players, especially in 10 man. You could get your tier all from a badge of frost vendor for normal mode, then proceed to get tokens from 25 and 10h to upgrade to sanctified and 25h got heroic sanctified. It was a combination of catering to a casual crowd that was brought in with wotlk and a gearing system that would facilitate these casuals, but only caused everyone to be over-geared for already easy content.

    At that time, 2-3 weeks in icc you could pug to putress and blood queen easily on 10n and saurfang on 25n. This is common knowledge for anyone on any decently populated server at the time. If you were stuck on a low population realm? Well, A) Yeah, it's sorta blizzard's fault for keeping server xfers 25$ when they have had an empty server problem for 5 years and B) Your experience=/= the real experience. Does it take rolling on one of the highest pop realms to get the real experience? That should be a no brainer, because the highest population pve hubs always house scores of pugs, guilds and groups of people always recruiting, pugging and making ends meet. It's a shame a lot of this community misses out on that.
    I'm not saying the Wrath was a hardcore player expansion mana, I didn't mean to imply that, and if I did I apologize. My only point was that lfr-ers today =/= pugging in wotlk. Surely you can see that? You didn't form a pug of 25 people, all who have never seen the fight, and go clear icc. You could carry the crap out of people, yeah, I'm not saying otherwise. Just that 25 random people who have never raided and don't know anything about it can't.

  14. #234
    Dreadlord Manabomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    Both of you are not getting the point. The people who you see in today's lfr are not capable (generally) of doing anything but tunneling the boss until either they die or it does. I'm not calling DW hard, for fucks sake. I'm saying 25 random people who have never seen the fight, don't know ANYTHING about it or the mechanics, or ANY strat whatsoever, would not be able to clear it. Reading comprehension is lacking here.
    But the thing is, tools like the silly proving grounds thing and the dungeon journal are easily accessible, not to bloody mention youtube videos of other people doing it. You're forgetting my point, in the essence that a lot of wotlk was easily pugged at current content with the exception of my person experience on Ulduar (stopped raiding then, bad wow choice, good life choice). Cata tier 11 tried to change that, but we all know how that wound up.

    Firelands proceeded to be pugged to death in my experience as well, and I lead my own normal and heroic 10 on dragonsoul. I'd pug in 3 people and tell them the 3 mechanics they would have to lookout for on each fight. What my point is, is that you underestimate the raiders that have been forced in with idiots, trolls and the like and put them down for literally no reason other than that they cannot facilitate the time needed to put into normal modes. And punishing them because of some stupid notion of you wanting to feel better at beating content (other than beating it on 1-3 difficulty levels higher than them) is just sad.
    Reduce- Iconic class abilities, complexity and meaningful rotations, usefulness of any one class in a raid group
    Reuse- A continent from 3 expansions ago, a story arch from 3 games ago, characters that would otherwise be dead
    Recycle- A beaten to death plot-line, the nostalgia goggles for TBC, bossfight mechanics that make patchwerk seem complex
    The three R's of Warlords of Draenor and that doesn't even mention flying, #savekarabor, blizzard store, tier to tier ilvl skips.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The problem has reached an acute stage this time.

    First, LFR allows anyone to "see the content" quickly. If you want to, you'll be able to kill the end boss of the expansion on Oct 22, six weeks after the tier is released.

    Now, DS was like this, but in DS there was still an expectation that people would advance on to higher raid modes. But with MoP, we've had an entire expansion of people being ok with just doing LFR. Do they have any motivation to get back into the guild raiding scene? I sure don't. Heirlooms from Garrosh have zero motivating effect for me.

    Blizzard is just about betting the farm that lots of these people will want to advance to Flex. If they don't, the whole tail end of this expansion will collapse like a house of cards.

    And something else...

    I enter every expansion with a finite supply of give-a-damn. MoP, for some reason, has been burning it unusually rapidly. I have very little care left for what happens in the expansion. The ersatz reward scheme of pretty purple pixels with incrementally larger numbers has lost its allure. The idea of reaching my own personally defined endpoint and saying "done!" is looking more and more attractive.
    Ok, just to sum it up, because to be clear, you are making no sense.

    You say in DS, there was an expectation that people would go from LFR to real raiding.
    You say in SoO, despite having Flex mode, with wings, and being cross-realm, there is less expectation that people will move up?

    Sorry, i just don´t believe that to be the case. I believe it is MUCH more likely that people move up past LFR in SoO then they did in DS. Just the fact that it is in wings will make a huge difference for realm pugs... it will feel more like doing a world boss. Especially after the first 2 months when most people know the content.

    I think you have just reached a little burn-out phase yourself... and that happens.. like I said, I think all of us have had that moment where we saw the man behind the curtain and realized it isn´t worth grinding gear, especially at the end of an expansion. But then hopefully you come back and realize sometimes it is fun to just kill stuff for no reason other than wanting to kill it faster next week.

  16. #236
    Dreadlord Manabomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    I'm not saying the Wrath was a hardcore player expansion mana, I didn't mean to imply that, and if I did I apologize. My only point was that lfr-ers today =/= pugging in wotlk. Surely you can see that? You didn't form a pug of 25 people, all who have never seen the fight, and go clear icc. You could carry the crap out of people, yeah, I'm not saying otherwise. Just that 25 random people who have never raided and don't know anything about it can't.
    And you don't just get thrown in with 25 random retards in lfr. You can have normal mode raiders, heroic raiders queing in their offtime, people that -can- carry the crap out of the raid. As well as good players and good raiders mixed with the whole thing because they prefer lfr over spending countless hours trying to get into and do normal modes.

    I doubt (Murphy's Law save me) that rng will ever be cruel enough to put together 25 unique people that have never raided in their life and are barely geared enough for that lfr content. It's the same with wotlk/cata pugging. The point is moot.
    Reduce- Iconic class abilities, complexity and meaningful rotations, usefulness of any one class in a raid group
    Reuse- A continent from 3 expansions ago, a story arch from 3 games ago, characters that would otherwise be dead
    Recycle- A beaten to death plot-line, the nostalgia goggles for TBC, bossfight mechanics that make patchwerk seem complex
    The three R's of Warlords of Draenor and that doesn't even mention flying, #savekarabor, blizzard store, tier to tier ilvl skips.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by But I Hate You All View Post
    ICC buff was added in March 2010. ICC was added in Dec 08, 2009 and normal mode was gated.



    No point really, You must have forgot about http://www.wowhead.com/item=49426/emblem-of-frost You got 93 a week.

    Your T10 gear of any variety requires badges in the following quantities:

    Gloves - 60 Emblem of Frost
    Shoulders - 60 Emblem of Frost
    Head - 95 Emblem of Frost
    Chest - 95 Emblem of Frost
    Legs - 95 Emblem of Frost

    The gear can be purchased from your respective armor merchants.

    The T10.2 can be purchased by turning in your T10 piece and a boss trophy.

    For the full T10 5-piece it requires 405 Emblem of Frost.

    So yea You must have forgot about that LOL WHAT?



    IDk I seen lots of people fail at the most easiest mechanics Hegans dance, not stacking behind ice blocks, not biting other players, standing in bad shit, not stacking, not spreading out.



    There has always been people who expect to be told how the fight is spouse to go that is nothing new, LAzy people and bads have always been in this game




    Bottom line back in WOTLK people could get full tier raid gear from heriocs. Today the only way to get that is do LFR or normal mode. The game Evolved, if we did not have LFR people would be running heroics to get their Tier gear.
    No, I didn't forget about badges, I simply misunderstood what you meant by getting tier. However, on the point of badges, you really think that today's lfr community is going to farm badges? To put forth any effort, however insignificant it may be, to get more reward? People already queue up for lfr and afk the ENTIRE time. So don't even try that shit, because it's ridiculous.

    The entire conflict that you started out here with was about gating anyway. I've laid out why Blizzard gates content, and you just refuse to acknowledge it, so I guess you wanted to change the topic to something else.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    And you don't just get thrown in with 25 random retards in lfr. You can have normal mode raiders, heroic raiders queing in their offtime, people that -can- carry the crap out of the raid. As well as good players and good raiders mixed with the whole thing because they prefer lfr over spending countless hours trying to get into and do normal modes.

    I doubt (Murphy's Law save me) that rng will ever be cruel enough to put together 25 unique people that have never raided in their life and are barely geared enough for that lfr content. It's the same with wotlk/cata pugging. The point is moot.
    I know, but what I'm getting at is the player base. Of course you're going to get some n/h raiders when you queue into an lfr. I was pointing out the disparity of the players that solely run lfr who also don't take the time or effort to know how to play their class. If you were to take my example, and add in normal and heroic raiders to the mix of puggers, then you have what lfr is presently, not the scenario I was laying out.

  18. #238
    1. Blizzard does never cater to real raiders. They want people to stay and play their game. Lots of LFR heros sub for clearing the content in 1 evening and unsub again. Then they go to twitter and the forums and write stuff like "GC, if you change LFR I will unsub in a second and never come back!". Still Blizzard catered to them with LFR in the first place and now they have a problem of very big magnitude.

    2. When some LFR hero comes and states that he unsubs because he can't clear all of LFR in week 1, what would be the difference? He would still unsub after clearing LFR in week 1 if it were possible.

  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    No, I didn't forget about badges, I simply misunderstood what you meant by getting tier. However, on the point of badges, you really think that today's lfr community is going to farm badges?
    Yes, it's alot easier to farm badges than farm lfr to get gear that MIGHT drop. Badges = no rng

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    To put forth any effort, however insignificant it may be, to get more reward? People already queue up for lfr and afk the ENTIRE time. So don't even try that shit, because it's ridiculous.
    And those people tend to get kicked from the group rather quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    The entire conflict that you started out here with was about gating anyway. I've laid out why Blizzard gates content, and you just refuse to acknowledge it, so I guess you wanted to change the topic to something else.
    I personally do not agree with gating content at all because they gate lfr and flex now to falsely keep those people playing longer till they clear it. Normal modes and Hardmodes have a longer life span because of difficulty.

    Since you wanna change the subject Do you think SoO will be another DS/ICC where we have it for a yr

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That reward is absent from LFR. I don't know any of the others in the raid, nor do I care about them. I'm sure the devs know about this problem, and are now realizing what a mistake they've made in pushing people to LFR.
    The devs have said repeatedly that the best enjoyment of the game is when you play with friends. Any time Flex gets mentioned they say this as the major reason for creating it. But everything is not ´best or horrible´, there is middle ground. While LFR is not the ´best´ way to raid, it is a fun, and meaningful part of many players ´end-game´. Would the devs like to get those players into Flex, certainly because they think it is more enjoyable, and they say it all the time. The other thing the devs say all the time, that I wish you would hear, is that there is this misconception that without LFR, people would do normal raids... no, they simply would not ever see the raid at all.

    And remember, we have now had two 14+ boss raids in a row. How many did Firelands and TOC have? The more people in LFR, the bigger raids we are getting because the devs can justify the costs. You eliminate LFR, then you are back to having 6-8 boss raids and 5 man dungeons instead.

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